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[H] ZvP hydra vs immortal?
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kalaz
Czech Republic12 Posts
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SlapMySalami
United States1060 Posts
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Dysk
Singapore44 Posts
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
You lost because you had a much smaller army. That first engagement the toss simply outnumbered you. Your hydras were actually very cost effective considering how little you had. The second engagement, again, because you lost units earlier when you didn't need to, you had a smaller army. Also I'm not sure if the spine crawler placement was ideal. But ya, if you wouldve just hung back with your spine crawlers and waited for your many hydras to pop you would've rolled over the toss. | ||
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Goatftw
Sweden10 Posts
Hydras are great vs immortals, but you still need to be roughly close to opponent in army value, or even abit higher. When your armies clashed, protoss managed to get more units attacking at the same time. So to sum: He had bigger army, and managed to attack better with his units. | ||
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
On January 01 2011 19:56 Goatftw wrote: The opponent had a bigger army than you. 2800min 1200gas vs your 1800min and 800gas. Hydras are great vs immortals, but you still need to be roughly close to opponent in army value, or even abit higher. When your armies clashed, protoss managed to get more units attacking at the same time. So to sum: He had bigger army, and managed to attack better with his units. You really don't even need a bigger army. If toss doesn't have collossi or HT's, roach-hydra will decimate anything of eqaul cost that toss could get. | ||
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
This wasnt Hydra v Immortal, it was your bad decision making combined with not so great mechanics. He went with 4 warpgates and a robo. 1 base. You got cannon rushed early and your expansion was delayed making the push stronger. However he was so bad so he never attacked so you got your third up with np even having 4 spines up that you positioned the worst way possible. They should've been moved up to the front as soon as you had creep to do so and was in no danger of getting killed (scout). But your BIG BIG mistake came when you sat on your two base vs 1 base and suddenly decided to push out with your relatively small hydra/roach army without creep in the center and encountered his bigger army at a horrible angle and position. At that point when he pushed in, your spines only hit his zealots and a few pokes on a couple of stalkers, but that was it. You had a way smaller army and you didnt fall back so the spines could help you out. Instead you just watched your army die. Regardless if you had more roach instead of hydra, or more lings or what not, it wouldnt have mattered if you just had stayed put on your 2 base and waited for his attack. You did scout him and the attack was late and there was no expansion in sight. Power up, get the spines in position, crush the attack and have a secured win. If you see him expand at some point during a attack like that, crush the attack and take a third. You could ofc, like anyone, work on the basic mechanics. Your larvae inject was okish, you need to spread more creep etc. | ||
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SlapMySalami
United States1060 Posts
On January 01 2011 20:02 Kyuki wrote: Topic and question is missleading.. This wasnt Hydra v Immortal, it was your bad decision making combined with not so great mechanics. He went with 4 warpgates and a robo. 1 base. You got cannon rushed early and your expansion was delayed making the push stronger. However he was so bad so he never attacked so you got your third up with np even having 4 spines up that you positioned the worst way possible. They should've been moved up to the front as soon as you had creep to do so and was in no danger of getting killed (scout). But your BIG BIG mistake came when you sat on your two base vs 1 base and suddenly decided to push out with your relatively small hydra/roach army without creep in the center and encountered his bigger army at a horrible angle and position. At that point when he pushed in, your spines only hit his zealots and a few pokes on a couple of stalkers, but that was it. You had a way smaller army and you didnt fall back so the spines could help you out. Instead you just watched your army die. Regardless if you had more roach instead of hydra, or more lings or what not, it wouldnt have mattered if you just had stayed put on your 2 base and waited for his attack. You did scout him and the attack was late and there was no expansion in sight. Power up, get the spines in position, crush the attack and have a secured win. If you see him expand at some point during a attack like that, crush the attack and take a third. You could ofc, like anyone, work on the basic mechanics. Your larvae inject was okish, you need to spread more creep etc. you could learn a thing or two from this guy, sounds like hes never lost a game | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
This game wasn't about hydra vs immortal. The loss was determined by the cannon contain and your reaction to it. Instead of burning 300 minerals on a 2nd in-base hatch to spread creep, consider building a creep tumor. He had 2 pylons and 1 cannon (350 minerals) invested into that contain, and you burned almost as much to destroy it, even though you did get larva from the extra hatch. You recover decently and build some drones, though on two bases, maybe more would have been good. You sort of freaked and laid down a million spine crawlers, which wasn't neccessary given how much protoss set himself back to cannon contain you; no push was coming. Those spinecrawlers were money, but more importantly, -4 workers, and less income etc etc. You engage at 13:00 with 10 roaches and 8 hydras vs 10 stalkers, 6 zealots, 3 sentries and 3 immortals. Your opponent has 50% more stuff than you. At this point it barely matters what he has. Engaging off creep is bad and your hydras are slow to get a concave. Bringing along Speedverlords to lay down creep was an interesting idea, but they need to spit it out earlier to be tactically useful. Retreating was the right idea, but the damage is done. you manage to get up to 2/3rds of your opponent's army value by 14:00 when he pushes again, but even with your spinecrawlers there's nothing you can do to more stuff. Moral of the story: Hydras are good vs Immortals and Gateway units, but they are not good against an overwhelming force of immortals and gateway units. If instead of 3 more spinecrawlers you made 6 more workers (and saved an additional 3 from not making spinecrawlers), the additional income would have let you have a bigger army. To spread creep to your front, try using tumors instead of an in-base hatch, since the in-base hatch is another worker +300 minerals. All told we're talking 600 minerals and 4 workers burned on breaking the contain and the panic defenses after the contain that, compounded over the course of several minutes, would have made a difference. Remember that the toss player is basically down 2-3 gateways if you break the contain and kill the 2 pylons and cannon with minimal losses, and his push will be delayed a bit. All told, it has nothing to do with micro OR composition, but rather, macro, as these things tend to. Try not to overreact to these cheesy contain type plays, and remember that as a general rule, more units always wins. | ||
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Karn3
United Kingdom134 Posts
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iMox
Ukraine33 Posts
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kalaz
Czech Republic12 Posts
A) Position spines right and don't go center b/c i scouted he is just 1 base making units B) Don't even build spines but macro better and build more hydras, especially b/c i knew he doesn't make collosi On January 01 2011 20:44 iMox wrote: sorry for trolling, but i dnt understand why people sometimes just dnt watch their own replays to anazyl, you had too many minerals just siting there and you say that you got owned...i think you cud have noticed it urself if you would watch ur own replays. NP. But I don't understand what kind of logic you use. Can you understand that you "know" after watching the replay what the problem was, but the one who is asking does not? In fact that's the point why somebody asks question... | ||
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
On January 01 2011 20:04 SlapMySalami wrote: you could learn a thing or two from this guy, sounds like hes never lost a game I have no clue if this was a sarcastic post or not, but I'll just go ahead and hope it isnt and say that I've lost plenty and plenty. If there is a harsh tone in my post it's mostly because of the amount of similar posts that appear on these forums. It's much like Day9 says - you see a unit and loose a big battle and HURP DERP Unit X vs Unit Y wins, why? Ugh Ugh let's post on TL.net about it. *ROOOAR IMBA/HARD COUNTER/UNIT COMP MIX!* It's almost always something that happend prior or some strange decision->mistake that leads to losses besides having bad basic mechanics. | ||
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
On January 01 2011 20:58 kalaz wrote: Thanks for answer, now i see it... Ok so my approach in these situations will either: A) Position spines right and don't go center b/c i scouted he is just 1 base making units B) Don't even build spines but macro better and build more hydras, especially b/c i knew he doesn't make collosi It's not a bad idea to put spines down in Steps or any map actually vs a 4-gate or some other type of agressive build. You might have overdone it, but 1-2 and even 3 depending on what you scout is not a bad idea. This will let you defend with less units and get more drones in if the 1 base all-in does not work you Will win. Definding these types of attacks as Zerg is kind of what makes zerg hard and also why it's abit of a art to be good at. You need alot of drones, but you dont want to die - it's a thin and fragile line to walk. Watch IdrA, he has the slickest defense timings I've seen from a zerg tbh and you can learn alot from him. | ||
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Doctor Zoidberg
Spain82 Posts
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