This is an amazing guide, but I haven't really been able to find any reps (not that its neccessary.) but can anyone link me to some good defenses so I can see the micro being pulled off? I'd appreciate it.

alepov

Netherlands1132 Posts

January 18 2011 11:37 GMT

#22

thanks for guide, maybe some replays please? i've lost to some 6min pushes a couple of times, even if i scout them (zvp ofc).

alx1

Mexico20 Posts

January 18 2011 11:40 GMT

#23

well is pretty hard to stop, i put 3 spine crawlers an do mass roach, the micro battle begins

but a friend got a variant much more deadly, the most of the times you are defending an expansion so he put another proxy pylon and while hes pushing the expansion send you another 3 zealots to your main so you cant defend both beacuse if you send troops to the main you lose the expansion, and if you dont defend the main, you lose it and is gg etither.

Sablar

Sweden880 Posts

January 18 2011 12:33 GMT

#24

Nice post.

I still have huge difficulties vs 4-gate, but hopefully I'm learning. Before I always had too many drones and now I have too few so I think eventually I will get a better understanding of it

The few drones, big army at start of push can be nice but you really have to kill his army and pylon right away to get away with it, and otherwise it's such a big fail.

DaemonX

545 Posts

January 18 2011 22:14 GMT

#25

Pure ling is a terrible idea, long dead now that strategy has advanced somewhat.

Larvae as resource has developed as a concept now, and pure lings are a disaster as they are so larva-inefficient. For defending, 2 lings is way less useful than one roach or one Spine. Every set of lings means one less drone / spine. If you have ever seen 12 lings get ripped up by a zealot/stalker ball in 3 seconds, well, that's 4 drones or 4 spines.

Larva efficiency is the concept which stops 2rax AND 4-gates. This means LOTS of drones which gives eco, extra queens (which don't consume larvae, let you spread creep without losing injects, transfuse spines/roaches/eachother, and provide anti-air defense in case of later void-switch), make spines, a few roaches and then if you need emergency support, squeeze out some ings to tide you over mid-fight.

However, that doesn't mean you can skip ling speed + 2 scout lings. Early ling speed = early map control, which means you can shut down scouts and proxy pylon placement until his army actually arrives. This will you save you 20-40 seconds at least.

This means you want to be going Pool and Gas before Hatch ideally, if he's going a faster variant!
Not too late on the hatch or again, larva starved.

Remember, you can reposition spines.

Cambam

United States360 Posts

January 20 2011 18:37 GMT

#26

Hey 4kmonk, I thought your guide was so great that I casted a game of me holding off a zealot/stalker 4 gate. In it, I just try to show your principals in action, so hopefully it can serve as a nice supplemental resource to your guide.

Anyone who's having trouble with 4 gate should read this guide; it's excellent!

Skroach

United States85 Posts

January 20 2011 19:21 GMT

#27

Awesome advice by OP. As toss, I like the zealot stalker 1 gas 4 gate. I approach with a healthy mix, try to attack right as cooldown finishes, then when I see whether they're ling or roach heavy, I warp in the appropriate units. If all lings, just warp 4 zealots. It's very powerful. My biggest issues are when zerg has some good spine crawlers down and was ready to make units because they scouted me moving out.

hangarninetysix

263 Posts

January 20 2011 19:24 GMT

#28

On December 23 2010 00:03 4kmonk wrote:

Show nested quote +

Ignore this. +1 armor does nothing vs a 4 gate.

If they(edit: the protoss) get +1 attack, it'd probably be very helpful.

monk

United States8477 Posts

January 20 2011 20:21 GMT

#29

On January 21 2011 04:24 hangarninetysix wrote:

Show nested quote +

If they(edit: the protoss) get +1 attack, it'd probably be very helpful.

Pretty irrelevant. By the time you scout a +1 4/5 gate, you won't have time to throw up an evo and upgrade +1 armor. So never get +1 armor vs 1 base

MetalFace

United States75 Posts

January 20 2011 20:46 GMT

#30

I've done a 4 gate in master league that cuts probes at 18 and wins almost every time. The two most important things to do as zerg is:

1) Scout it. Not only the incoming 4 gate, but the proxy pylon.

2) Make the right unit composition. Lings are great against stalkers. Roaches against zealots. Just micro like a beast and get a spine crawler in a good spot, and you'll be fine.

Oh, and don't let your queen die while you are making other units. She can be super useful during an actual fight, but if she dies before you even get a round of units out, she's wasted.

Lennon

United Kingdom2275 Posts

January 21 2011 03:06 GMT

#31

Thanks for this. Very helpful.

phanixmaximus

26 Posts

January 22 2011 17:23 GMT

#32

Thanks for the post. It helped me overcome my losing streak to 4 gates. Just to add, I found that if the opponent has stalker/zealots (maybe a 1-2 sentries), it's easier to win micro-wise by hiding my lings and attacking from behind when they engage the spine. If done right reinforcing roaches will come from the front and toss won't be able to retreat.

Just a funny note. This only works on certain maps where you can flank an expo. I tried this on Jungle Basin, and to my eternal embarrassment, the Toss player force fielded my forces out of my own base.

Indrium

United States2236 Posts

January 23 2011 00:12 GMT

#33

I posted a question about this a little while ago and this is great information. Thank you.

Dysk

Singapore44 Posts

January 23 2011 05:17 GMT

#34

Scout no sentry at his ramp, throw down one spine at your base, a roach warren and tech to lair. Cut drones when you have efficient saturation at main and 6-7 at nat then you want a good mix of roaches and lings. I get by with around 5 roaches and otherwise all lings against the earliest 4 gate pushes, after that you have to keep pumping lings non stop and try to get your roaches to around 8. Replace any roaches that die, but you don't want to overshoot too much because lings are essential to tank hits from stalkers while roaches do the damage.

Adrenalin

46 Posts

January 23 2011 10:07 GMT

#35

Hi,

Nice guide. It would defintely be very good if you attached some replays. Theory is good and do you know that one image equals a thousand words ?

Do you have from your personal experience some replays ?

Thanks.

philln12

United States36 Posts

January 23 2011 10:26 GMT

#36

Excellent Post.

Taniard

United States114 Posts

January 23 2011 10:54 GMT

#37

Counter to 4-gate = make units and don't suck. =P

GrassEater

Sweden417 Posts

January 23 2011 13:58 GMT

#38

On January 21 2011 03:37 Cambam wrote:
Hey 4kmonk, I thought your guide was so great that I casted a game of me holding off a zealot/stalker 4 gate. In it, I just try to show your principals in action, so hopefully it can serve as a nice supplemental resource to your guide.

Anyone who's having trouble with 4 gate should read this guide; it's excellent!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EZJMvLv_iA

Protoss player from bronze? You could have double expand and hold it.

gondolin

France332 Posts

February 17 2011 19:01 GMT

#39

I am having trouble with the 3 gate + robo timing attack, because I don't know how to respond to it properly. It comes a bit later than the standard 4 gate, so can I drone more? And does ling roach cuts it, or do you have to tech to hydras asap?

Maybe I have difficulties microing, but it is hard to get to the immortal with lings since there are zealots, and the immortal eats roaches alive.
With only one immortal, I feel that I could maybe hold up with roaches, but if they wait for several immortals, since I cut drone at 21 I don't have quite the economy to tech hydras. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Unveiler

34 Posts

February 17 2011 19:16 GMT

#40

Thank you for the post, how do you feel about ignoring spines on certain maps (I'm mostly thinking of Xel'naga)

The +1 armor post... +armor on lings/queen/roach is a substantial upgrade, and unlike +1 attack would affect all of these units. It doesn't seem like the best plan BC 100gas is obviously quite important at this stage (ie before or during 4 gate) and the upgrade time for +1 armor is so long.

I thought there was some sizable benefit of +1 armor for ling against stalker considering ling regen. I guess +2 armor would maybe make stalker take 5 shots to kill a ling (5*10 - 10 = 40 and ling may regen the 5 hp? don't think so). Anyone know what I am trying to point out? Can't go to unit tester at the moment.

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