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[G] How to stop a 4 gate as Zerg - Page 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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rapier7
Profile Joined February 2011
United States46 Posts
February 17 2011 20:54 GMT
#41
Can you really feasibly get +1 armor before the 4-gate push happens? That seems like a very early time to do so.
http://www.youtube.com/user/starcraftsportsbook
Skrag
Profile Joined May 2010
United States643 Posts
February 19 2011 08:18 GMT
#42
On January 23 2011 22:58 GrassEater wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2011 03:37 Cambam wrote:
Hey 4kmonk, I thought your guide was so great that I casted a game of me holding off a zealot/stalker 4 gate. In it, I just try to show your principals in action, so hopefully it can serve as a nice supplemental resource to your guide.

Anyone who's having trouble with 4 gate should read this guide; it's excellent!




Protoss player from bronze? You could have double expand and hold it.


Seriously, why do people insist on posting replays of "holding" a 4gate when the attack happens a full MINUTE slower than it's supposed to?

60 seconds is a really long time in this game.
"Just go *@#$ing kill him!" -- Day[9] "Thanks for being a jackass though! Enjoy your time on the forums!" - Artosis
lvlashimaro
Profile Joined July 2010
United States91 Posts
March 25 2011 11:05 GMT
#43
On February 19 2011 17:18 Skrag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2011 22:58 GrassEater wrote:
On January 21 2011 03:37 Cambam wrote:
Hey 4kmonk, I thought your guide was so great that I casted a game of me holding off a zealot/stalker 4 gate. In it, I just try to show your principals in action, so hopefully it can serve as a nice supplemental resource to your guide.

Anyone who's having trouble with 4 gate should read this guide; it's excellent!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EZJMvLv_iA



Protoss player from bronze? You could have double expand and hold it.


Seriously, why do people insist on posting replays of "holding" a 4gate when the attack happens a full MINUTE slower than it's supposed to?

60 seconds is a really long time in this game.


Hm.. While this probably sounds like trash since I'm silver league, I think it's safe to say that the zerg player is also a full minute slower than he's supposed to be. While this wasn't the best timed 4 gate ever, the errors that led to the delay are surely equivalent to the delays that the zerg player had while preparing for it. Thus, I think it pretty much balances out. Also, this may have been his first time "holding off" a 4-gate. I'd be happy, and put due credit to the thread that helped me overcome it too. O_O..
Yeah... I guess this video doesn't help a large majority of people on this forum, but it helped me. Call me noob but his video helped me because I saw it via a video rather reading text. It's not the best demonstration, but as a visual learner, it's better than nothing.
작은 두손을 모은 내 기도는 하나 뿐이야 돌아와
najreteip
Profile Joined December 2010
Belgium4158 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-05 20:42:34
April 05 2011 20:41 GMT
#44
I actually have a question I'd like to pose to high level zergs.
I'm gold league, and when I get 4gated I notice that very often protoss takes ALL of his units to attack, including the zealot at his ramp. I've actually been able to hold a 4gate a couple of times now by planting 2 spines at my natural, defending with roaches and taking a bunch(~10) lings into his main and just killing all his probes while he's attacking, then allyou'd have to do is defend the units he has since he won't be able to make any more
I don't know if this is really viable for higher level players, but I did come across an interesting replay of Dimaga vs nani, where nani 4gates and has nothing defending his base.

edit: link to te replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/144684-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
I have no quote!
regulator_mk
Profile Joined June 2010
United States127 Posts
April 05 2011 20:56 GMT
#45
On April 06 2011 05:41 najreteip wrote:
I actually have a question I'd like to pose to high level zergs.
I'm gold league, and when I get 4gated I notice that very often protoss takes ALL of his units to attack, including the zealot at his ramp. I've actually been able to hold a 4gate a couple of times now by planting 2 spines at my natural, defending with roaches and taking a bunch(~10) lings into his main and just killing all his probes while he's attacking, then allyou'd have to do is defend the units he has since he won't be able to make any more
I don't know if this is really viable for higher level players, but I did come across an interesting replay of Dimaga vs nani, where nani 4gates and has nothing defending his base.

edit: link to te replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/144684-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns


Because of how warpgates work, he can just warp a couple zealots into his base to defend if needed.
Beef Noodles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States937 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-05 21:07:17
April 05 2011 21:06 GMT
#46
Why do you think roaches are mandatory to hold off a korean 4 gate (zealot stalker)? Literally every pro I've seen has simply massed ling (cutting drones at 20-22) and crushed the initial warp in/destroyed the pylon. The game is almost always over at that point. Seems to me like this version has a direct counter, but the scouting is the difficult part (as protoss can fake getting their second gas)
najreteip
Profile Joined December 2010
Belgium4158 Posts
April 05 2011 21:23 GMT
#47
On April 06 2011 05:56 regulator_mk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 06 2011 05:41 najreteip wrote:
I actually have a question I'd like to pose to high level zergs.
I'm gold league, and when I get 4gated I notice that very often protoss takes ALL of his units to attack, including the zealot at his ramp. I've actually been able to hold a 4gate a couple of times now by planting 2 spines at my natural, defending with roaches and taking a bunch(~10) lings into his main and just killing all his probes while he's attacking, then allyou'd have to do is defend the units he has since he won't be able to make any more
I don't know if this is really viable for higher level players, but I did come across an interesting replay of Dimaga vs nani, where nani 4gates and has nothing defending his base.

edit: link to te replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/144684-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns


Because of how warpgates work, he can just warp a couple zealots into his base to defend if needed.

True but you can time the runby with the protoss warp-in, can't you?
Then he'd have to wait a full cycle before defending
I have no quote!
DuneBug
Profile Joined April 2010
United States668 Posts
April 05 2011 21:56 GMT
#48
it's worth making a few speedlings to snipe his pylons during a 4gate.

and it's worth trying to run those speedlings up his ramp to kill probes.
It's not worth investing your defense into his ramp being open.
TIME TO SAY GOODNIGHT BRO!
AsianEcksDragon
Profile Joined March 2008
United States1036 Posts
April 06 2011 00:41 GMT
#49
It's not that hard. You don't need to cut a lot of drones. You don't need roaches, mutas or hydras. Speedlings and 4-6 spines (depending on the timing) are all you need. You want the majority of your lings to defend with the spine and a small group to run into his base and rape his probe line. You can transition to anything afterward but you don't need to cut an awful lot of drones.
神は乗り越えられる試練しか与えない
ReaperX
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Hong Kong1758 Posts
April 06 2011 00:50 GMT
#50
Very valuable post, a lot of people are defending my 4 gate rushes in ZvP so I've stopped and started doing MC like 2 base agression.
Artosis : Clide. idrA : Shut up.
SigmaoctanusIV
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States3313 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-06 00:56:45
April 06 2011 00:55 GMT
#51
As a Protoss I would say that the best way to defend against a scouted 4 gate is to build some spine crawlers(1-2) and loads of speedlings. Try to spread them out to get a good flank fight only in range of the Spines. Or if you went gas before pool just keep killing the pylon with your lings and get roaches with Burrow if you can keep the proxy pylon dead. If you don't scout it best of luck it can be super difficult if you don't know it coming so keep lots of scouting up. Best of luck to you.
I am Godzilla You are Japan
DuneBug
Profile Joined April 2010
United States668 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-06 16:43:31
April 06 2011 16:36 GMT
#52
lair + burrow comes way after a 4gate hits. If you're defending a 4gate with burrowed roaches it must be one of the latest 4gates ever.

It's worth building some speedlings in order to go kill their pylon. Other than that i don't recommend it. One of the priorities against any 4gate should be to pick off their sentries, so they can't forcefield the ramp. You can't necessarily do that with speedlings.

Also you need to target fire units in a 4gate, speedlings spread their damage around which isn't what you want. But having said that, speedlings can be useful if they don't make enough zealots and you already have roaches.

Also someone mentioned +1 armor i'm not sure what the purpose of that would be. Speedlings will still take 3 shots from zealots and 4 from stalkers.
TIME TO SAY GOODNIGHT BRO!
Hyphenate
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden4 Posts
April 09 2011 13:56 GMT
#53
I would say that in most situations the toss that 4gates will get overconfident and leav his base undefended, remember he stops making probes at around 25/200, so if ur able to get inside and kill off even a few, his attack will be severely weakened or Delayed.
♥ Gg ♥
VictorX
Profile Joined April 2011
United States773 Posts
April 09 2011 14:08 GMT
#54
Properly executed 1 gas 4gate hits way before burrow and lair. The warpgate research can finish at approx 5:30 (depending on variance in probe cutting, the unit built after zealot, and cyber chrono). 7 units can be up in your face, on the creep, at 6:00.

I believe that (after scouting) the best solution is, as posted before, spines and speedlings. The more important decision is to cut drones at 20-22. If you overdrone against a proper 4gate (which cuts probes at 20-23), then it is a death sentence. Once scouted, all larva must be committed to units. Pure speedling can hold handsomely, however a slightly delayed 4gate (so their ball of units is bigger) can prove difficult for speedlings, so the latter stages of the rush require roaches or spines to hold effectively.

The most important part is spotting the 4gate, which includes glimpsing at whether the cyber core is being chrono boosted, being aware of the Protoss gas timings, and scouting at 5:00 for extra warpgates and then his front at 5:30 for gateways being warped into warpgates.
teamsolid
Profile Joined October 2007
Canada3668 Posts
April 09 2011 14:24 GMT
#55
On April 06 2011 06:23 najreteip wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 06 2011 05:56 regulator_mk wrote:
On April 06 2011 05:41 najreteip wrote:
I actually have a question I'd like to pose to high level zergs.
I'm gold league, and when I get 4gated I notice that very often protoss takes ALL of his units to attack, including the zealot at his ramp. I've actually been able to hold a 4gate a couple of times now by planting 2 spines at my natural, defending with roaches and taking a bunch(~10) lings into his main and just killing all his probes while he's attacking, then allyou'd have to do is defend the units he has since he won't be able to make any more
I don't know if this is really viable for higher level players, but I did come across an interesting replay of Dimaga vs nani, where nani 4gates and has nothing defending his base.

edit: link to te replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/144684-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns


Because of how warpgates work, he can just warp a couple zealots into his base to defend if needed.

True but you can time the runby with the protoss warp-in, can't you?
Then he'd have to wait a full cycle before defending

A good Protoss would finish off his wall with a pylon after moving out.
ImBakedBro
Profile Joined October 2010
United States26 Posts
April 09 2011 14:29 GMT
#56
i feel like there should be a thread called "how to do the same build every game as protoss from bronze league to grandmaster" im pretty sure this takes skills

User was temp banned for this post.
"Stay on my cloud, i don't know what is going faster my green or my trees, just sit back and watch me blow it all"
Laids
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom596 Posts
April 09 2011 14:30 GMT
#57
Maps with wide chokes(xelnaga, metal and delta)
These naturals are not defended as efficiently with spine crawlers. Although spines are definitely still useful in these situations be wary that with improper spine placement, the protoss can simply walk around your spines.



I like to use evo chambers on open naturals to protect my spine somewhat and funnel zealots into a choke. I find that using a more ling heavy army with some roaches works better, as my roaches movement is limited due to the evo chambers, this is Silver :>

Does anyone in higher divisions have suggestions for evo chamber placement for defense and if it's actually worth it?
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
April 09 2011 14:51 GMT
#58
On April 09 2011 23:29 ImBakedBro wrote:
i feel like there should be a thread called "how to do the same build every game as protoss from bronze league to grandmaster" im pretty sure this takes skills



the sad thing is, that this is nearly true. You can at least hit mid-diamond with only being able to play 4gate and if it doesnt fail to terrible just follow it up with another 1base cheese or all-in...
what I consider even sader is that a lot of protoss tell you how good they are because they can perform 3different 4gate timings and (this is an actual qoute from a guy I lost to some months ago on the ladder in diamond and goes something like this):
RandomDiamondProtoss wrote: it's not so easy because you have to build the right units and if you lose your units you cannot expand
caracarn
Profile Joined January 2011
Sweden141 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-09 16:15:41
April 09 2011 16:10 GMT
#59
+ Show Spoiler +
On April 09 2011 23:30 Laids wrote:
Maps with wide chokes(xelnaga, metal and delta)
These naturals are not defended as efficiently with spine crawlers. Although spines are definitely still useful in these situations be wary that with improper spine placement, the protoss can simply walk around your spines.


I like to use evo chambers on open naturals to protect my spine somewhat and funnel zealots into a choke. I find that using a more ling heavy army with some roaches works better, as my roaches movement is limited due to the evo chambers, this is Silver :>

Does anyone in higher divisions have suggestions for evo chamber placement for defense and if it's actually worth it?



Yes i think as a zerg player we need to think more and more sim city out of the few buildings we are making. And one of the best buildings to build sim city with is the evo. chamber. It is cheap and will be able to transition the anything. I think 2 or 3 evo. chambers is the standard in the future.
But imo if u want to create a narrow choke i recommend throwing down at least 2 spines. Just because it is so easy to forfcefield your army for protoss in a narrow choke. And spines is great vs forcefield.
And the great thing is that the more spines you throw down the more drones can you make or queens to heal the spines. Even though i dont think that in the GM-league the static defence might not be the best.
Jinro Whaiting!
Snackattack
Profile Joined August 2010
United States15 Posts
April 09 2011 16:38 GMT
#60
I feel like the zerg counter to 4-gate is really just spine-crawlers into roaches, despite the type of 4 gate. If its a pure zealot 4 gate all in, and they are just rushing with sets of 4 zealots, 3 spine crawlers can take them all out while only taking a few hits (and you should have zerglings or roaches on the way). If its stalker zealot about the same rules apply, the stalkers probably could take one out but it would require that they lose so much, and it gives you plenty of time to make more zerglings, or roaches.

Idk, im not a 3k+ player but I've never really had trouble with 4 gate unless its un-scouted or you are not preparing for it.
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