I've been seeing a lot of zergs asking questions about how to stop 4 gates and I've seen even more people give terrible advice about how to stop it. I also know that even many top level zergs don't know the proper way to stop this. I hope I can help some people by sharing what I know about this strategy. Feedback is greatly appreciated.
The main problem with the general advice that people on teamliquid give about stopping 4 gates is that they're usually about the unit composition to get vs a 4 gate. This is wrong for 2 reasons. First of all, there are many types of 4 gates that come with different timings and different compositions and each has a somewhat different counter. Second of all, unit composition is, in my opinion, the least important aspect of stopping a 4 gate. Most 4 gates, especially the later 4 gates can be stopped with a variety of tactics. In order to stop a 4 gate, the two most important aspects are: 1. Scout the 4 gate 2. Cut drones at the correct timing Everything else is secondary. Of course, you want spine crawlers and a good unit composition, but these things are by far not the reason most people lose to 4 gates.
Scouting the 4 gate: First, to stop the 4 gate, you must know that it's coming. This can be done in various ways. Here are some techniques that I've come up with.
1. A drone scout can determine if the gateway was built on 10 or 13 and it can check the nexus for the number of chornoboosts the toss has saved. 2. Overlords can be sacked to check the number of gates and the unit composition of the protoss. 3. Finding out the toss's 2nd unit out of his first gateway can give you a big clue as to what strategy he's doing. A stalker most likely indicates a tech build/4gate. A sentry rules out the zealot/stalker 4 gate, so free feel to drone to 30 drones. 4. Killing the initial scouting probe lets you deny proxy plyons that will make his push much faster. 5. You can run lings up the protoss's ramp every 20 seconds to check how many chornoboosts he uses on his warp gate tech. 6. If you learn warpgate timings, you can tell how many chronos the toss has used on his warpgate tech. This can give you a hint on the mindset of a good protoss. 3 chornos on the warpgate could possibly mean a 4 gate, 4 definately means a 4 gate, and 0-2 probably means either no 4 gate or a very delayed 4 gate. These timings off a 13 gate are approximately: 5 chornoboosts: 5:20 4 chornoboosts: 5:30 3 chornoboosts: 5:40 etc... 0 chornoboosts: 6:10 These timings indicate when the warpgate tech finishes and gateways start morphing. Units can be warped 10 seconds later and will finish warping in 15 seconds. For example, if you use 4 chornoboosts on warpgates, warpgates will finish at 5:30, units will start warping in at 5:40, and units will have finished warping at 5:45.
Types of 4 gates By learning the types of possible 4 gates, you will be able to recognize them in a game and respond accordingly.
Pure zealot 4 gate This is by far the easiest 4 gate to stop as long as you scout it. The protoss can stop mining gas after 50 gas and focus only on zealots. If he doesn't make even 1 stalker, he won't be able to deny scouting. Throw down a roach warren and you should be safe.
Zealot/stalker 4 gate This version of 4 gate comes out very quick and is probably the hardest to stop. Toss cuts probes at 20 probes and in order to stop this variation, you need to cut drones around 18 drones on certain maps(20 drones on most maps). As a reference, this build can have 7 toss units around 5:35. The zerg's 2nd hatch will just have finished by that time off of a 14 gas 14 pool build and therefore there is no way you can build spines at your natural to hold it off in time. On maps with narrow chokes, it's possible to preemptively build a spine crawler in your map and then walk it down to your natural. On maps with wide chokes, you absolutely need both speedlings and roaches to defend against this type of 4 gate. Make more roaches if he's zealot heavy and more lings if he's stalker heavy. Surround the stalkers with your lings and kite the zealots with roaches. Even then, if you do everything perfectly, it's still a micro war with the zerg having a slight advantage.
Zealot/sentry 4 gate This comes slightly later because toss must get 2 gas in order to execute this version. Toss usually cuts probes around 23 in this version and the initial push is generally pure sentry/zealot. This version might look like a normal 3 gate sentry expand, but you won't be fooled if you have constant scouting of his expansion via either a ling or an overlord. Also, you can sometimes tell by the sheer number of units he has. If the toss spots roaches, he will add a round of stalkers. Spines are decently effective against this 4 gate, because this army generally has a lower dps. A good amount of roach/ling is also effective, because the toss will simply get overwhelmed. Mass lings are not effective at all vs this. As long as you don't overextend yourself, you should hold this off. One key thing to be careful of vs this version is not to let toss up your main ramp or it's pretty much over for the zerg as he can endlessly forcefield your ramp.
Delayed 4 gate These are by far the most varied and are only hard to stop when you can't scout it or your macro is poor. By 6:10, if the toss has not expanded yet or moved out, you definitely should suspect that something is up. If you have no idea what the toss is doing, then you're not in a very good position. The reason 4 gate is problematic in this case is that you have to prepare not only for 4 gate but also a vast myriad of other threats such as voidrays, phoenix, dts, blink stalker, immortals, and warp prisms. In any case, by 6:10, vs a 1 base toss, you should start your lair to prepare for air/dts/blink stalker and pump mass drones until 30 drones and then cut drones entirely. This is because all the threats i mentioned before actually all come at the same time, around 7:10 to 7:30 and if you cut at 30 drones you should be able to properly respond to all of them. Also, with 30 drones and 2 bases, you'll definitely be able to outmine a toss who has only 1 base anyways if he says on 1 base for too long. In any case, with good macro and a mixture of lings and roaches, you'll hold.
Varying your defense based on the map Next, you have to vary your 4 gate defense techniques based on the map being played. All of these factors contribute to determining whether spines should be a major component of the 4 gate defense and how much time you have to react.
Maps with long rush distance and tight chokes(lost temple, shakrus plateau) Lots of spine crawlers are the best answer for defense as you support those spines with additional units. These maps are the worst maps for 4 gate, but it's still possible to lose to a 4 gate if you're not prepared or you don't abuse the choke.
Maps with wide chokes(xelnaga, metal and delta) These naturals are not defended as efficiently with spine crawlers. Although spines are definitely still useful in these situations be wary that with improper spine placement, the protoss can simply walk around your spines.
Maps with short rush distances(steppes, close distance metal, close distance lost temple, delta) These maps force you to make preemptive spines because you won't have enough time to make reactionary spines after he moves out of his base.
Maps with ramps to the main that are easy to get up(xelnaga, delta quadrant) Pay special attention to your ramp on these maps if your opponent has sentries. If the toss gets up the zerg's ramp with sentires, the game is pretty much already over.
Maps with backdoors(blistering, scrap station, and jungle basin) These generally make spines somewhat less effective. Don't overly invest in them(~3). However it takes forever to kill the rocks, so if you scouted and droned correctly, the time it takes for him to kill the rocks should translate into a bigger army advantage for you.
Unit choices Unit choices are the least important part of defending a 4 gate. For most of the 4 gates(the later ones), unit choice isn't really that important. Before you start your game, you should have a build in mind and this build should be flexible enough to handle any of these 4 gates. If you scout a 4 gate, you don't have to abandon your build entirely. Instead, just adapt by cutting drones and making whatever unit you were going to make in the first place. Ling roach, ling bling, +1 speedlings, and hydra are all somewhat decent choices to stop some of the later 4 gates. Muta, however, is not.
The drone timings are huge and I'd love to hear more specifics if possible.
I lost for a month straight against 4-gating Protoss until I finally started to understand that the biggest problem that no one is giving advice on is not unit composition, but macro timings.
I've found that the mindstate of droning to 30 has turned the tide on most 4 gate builds for me (only cutting drones a little earlier if you see he's really pumping for that very fast 1-gas zealot heavy push). The entire art of beating a 4 gate revolves entirely around drone timing and when to cut drones. I think the unit compositions are really secondary. There is no best answer because there are so many ways the protoss can mix up his composition balance, and also different players are better with different units.
Would you say even probe counting is helpful? How many drones does a Z need to be up on a P to counter any of the pushes would you say... I feel that Zerg really needs the stronger econ in these scenarios by a few drones if possible.
Very nice post and as far as I can tell really valuable information. I can't comment on the timing details because I don't pay attention to the clock timer in-game, but everything seems to agree with my sense of the timings.
On December 21 2010 01:24 4kmonk wrote: The first and imo the strongest type is the zealot stalker 4gate. This 4 gate comes out the quickest and is probably the hardest to stop. Toss cuts probes at 20 probes and in order to stop this variation, you need to cut drones around 18 drones on certain maps. As a reference, this build can have 7 toss units around 5:35. The zerg's 2nd hatch will just have finished by that time off of a 14 gas 14 pool build and therefore there is no way you can build spines at your natural to hold it off in time. On maps with narrow chokes, it's possible to preemptively build a spine crawler in your map and then walk it down to your natural. On maps with wide chokes, you absolutely need both speedlings and roaches to defend against this type of 4 gate. Make more roaches if he's zealot heavy and more lings if he's stalker heavy. Surround the stalkers with your lings and kite the zealots with roaches. Even then, if you do everything perfectly, it's still a micro war with the zerg having a slight advantage.
My understanding of defending this rush was that you're best off sticking to pure lings. 18 (or 20, which was my point of cutting drones) drones is a very meager economy to go roaches off and the rush comes so quickly that you'll be hard-pressed to get any decent number of roaches out. For reference, check out Leenock vs GuineaPig on Blistering Sands in GSL in which he overwhelms with sheer ling numbers and Check vs Chojja on DQ where Check gets out roachling but still gets overwhelmed. Of course the games were quite different and DQ is extremely hard ZvP, but it might be better to go pure lings.
There's also the pure Zealot 4 gate, where P goes 10 gate, saves up all his cb for warpgate and stops mining gas after 50. This is way cheesier than the other 4 gates in that as long as it's scouted, Z shouldn't have any problems holding it off (all you need is a very early roach warren), but it's something to watch out for.
On December 21 2010 01:40 gunsakimbo wrote: The drone timings are huge and I'd love to hear more specifics if possible.
I lost for a month straight against 4-gating Protoss until I finally started to understand that the biggest problem that no one is giving advice on is not unit composition, but macro timings.
I've found that the mindstate of droning to 30 has turned the tide on most 4 gate builds for me (only cutting drones a little earlier if you see he's really pumping for that very fast 1-gas zealot heavy push). The entire art of beating a 4 gate revolves entirely around drone timing and when to cut drones. I think the unit compositions are really secondary. There is no best answer because there are so many ways the protoss can mix up his composition balance, and also different players are better with different units.
Would you say even probe counting is helpful? How many drones does a Z need to be up on a P to counter any of the pushes would you say... I feel that Zerg really needs the stronger econ in these scenarios by a few drones if possible.
I totally agree with you. The most important parts about defending 4 gate is scouting it and drone cutting. I don't necessarily agree that zerg has to be ahead on many drones to defend these 4 gates. Zergs units are actually just better than gateway units on equal cost as long as you have a decent composition. Also, in some cases, it's just impossible to be really ahead of the toss in worker count, especially with the faster pushes. For example, the zealot/stalker push on delta only lets the zerg make around 18 drones imo.
About probe counting. I feel that it would be too hard to count individual probes, but you can definitely look at the nexus and see if it's still making probes when you scout the toss base.
On December 21 2010 01:42 Orome wrote: 18 (or 20, which was my point of cutting drones) drones is a very meager economy to go roaches off and the rush comes so quickly that you'll be hard-pressed to get any decent number of roaches out.
the pull at 18 to 20 advice is what I had been following for a while in trying to stop the 4-gate, but for me it never worked out too well. I think it may be b/c it works for pro players, but the timings translate a little differently on ladder, even against alot of diamond players. You can hold the first wave from a 4-gate push on such a crap economy, but you can and will not hold the 2nd or 3rd (unless you get the pylon and that sometimes can be extremely difficult). this is why I feel that it is essential to try and eek out a few more drones.
It does all rely on scouting though and understanding how spot on your opponent is with his timing, when he's cut his probes, etc. Good advice above too on just watching for when the nexus isn't making probes anymore if possible. There are so many variants of how people do things on ladder, and my experience so far is that most of them are just slightly delayed in their pushes and are not the extreme of the lean econ versions.
On December 21 2010 01:42 Orome wrote: Very nice post and as far as I can tell really valuable information. I can't comment on the timing details because I don't pay attention to the clock timer in-game, but everything seems to agree with my sense of the timings.
On December 21 2010 01:24 4kmonk wrote: The first and imo the strongest type is the zealot stalker 4gate. This 4 gate comes out the quickest and is probably the hardest to stop. Toss cuts probes at 20 probes and in order to stop this variation, you need to cut drones around 18 drones on certain maps. As a reference, this build can have 7 toss units around 5:35. The zerg's 2nd hatch will just have finished by that time off of a 14 gas 14 pool build and therefore there is no way you can build spines at your natural to hold it off in time. On maps with narrow chokes, it's possible to preemptively build a spine crawler in your map and then walk it down to your natural. On maps with wide chokes, you absolutely need both speedlings and roaches to defend against this type of 4 gate. Make more roaches if he's zealot heavy and more lings if he's stalker heavy. Surround the stalkers with your lings and kite the zealots with roaches. Even then, if you do everything perfectly, it's still a micro war with the zerg having a slight advantage.
My understanding of defending this rush was that you're best off sticking to pure lings. 18 (or 20, which was my point of cutting drones) drones is a very meager economy to go roaches off and the rush comes so quickly that you'll be hard-pressed to get any decent number of roaches out. For reference, check out Leenock vs GuineaPig on Blistering Sands in GSL in which he overwhelms with sheer ling numbers and Check vs Chojja on DQ where Check gets out roachling but still gets overwhelmed. Of course the games were quite different and DQ is extremely hard ZvP, but it might be better to go pure lings.
There's also the pure Zealot 4 gate, where P goes 10 gate, saves up all his cb for warpgate and stops mining gas after 50. This is way cheesier than the other 4 gates in that as long as it's scouted, Z shouldn't have any problems holding it off (all you need is a very early roach warren), but it's something to watch out for.
I disagree with you about the lings. First of all, I agree with getting 20 drones vs this push on almost every map except the extremely short distance ones such as steppes, delta, and close pos metal. Then, I find that 18 is probably better. It's a very fine distinction tbh and i'll talk about it latter.
About pure lings: In certain circumstances, if you make pure lings vs this strategy, protoss can just switch to mass zealot and roll over you and your natural imo. I think the 2 games you mentioned perfectly demonstrate what I mean by this.
Leenock vs GuineaPig on blistering Leenock stops at 19 drones and then saves larva. To stop the rush, he makes a spine and masses zerglings. First of all, blistering is a relatively easy map to stop this rush imo. The rush distance is very long and your choke is decently narrow. This makes spines a much better option than normal. Also, guineapig did a rather slow version of this build, not using many chornoboosts on his warpgates. Then, you have to account for the many many mistakes that guineapig made in his execution of this build. He messed up his wall and lings runby killing 2 probes and stopping mining for while. He loses trades his 2 stalkers for 4 lings, he wastes 3 forcefields, then he procedes to delay the toss even more by hitting his back rocks. Also, it takes forever for the toss to get up a proxy pylon to reinforce. The final fight is actually still really close. Imagine if this happened on a different map and guineapig had +2 stalkers, +3 forcefields, and 1 or 3 extra units that would have come with the lost probes and mining time. Also, imagine if guineapig hadn't been delayed so much with the ling runby and he put his proxy pylon down faster. Pure ling definitely isn't the answer but maybe lings + spines into blings on certain maps would work. I don't have enough experience to answer that though.
choya vs Check on delta This is by far the hardest map to hold this rush on. Although check did cut drones, and make lings and roaches, I felt as if he made a few key mistakes. His biggest was cutting drones at 16 instead of 18, which is definitely not enough to hold this push. He also tries to make a spine with a drone, bringing it down to 15 drones. This was made worse because choya actually delayed his push for 3 rounds of units, further widening the econ gap. On a map like delta, lings and and spines would never hold this push, because of the short rush distance and the wide choke to the natural in addition to the fact that the ramp to the main can't be covered with spines.
Also, it's especially difficult on this map because if toss moves out with his first 7 units, you won't hold if you're close position and make 20 drones. However, if you cut drones at 18 or 20 as check did, you'll be much worse off vs a toss that waits for more waves. Notice how tight these builds are as we're talking about 16 vs 18 vs 20 drones.
Interesting, and it seems you have way more knowledge and experience with this than I do. You might be right, although I believe Artosis has advocated getting banelings instead of roaches as well.
Dimaga style +1 speedling works well in my opinion. Of course.. always being prepped to tech switch yourself is very important.
I think if you go pure ling against this, throwing an evo down and getting the +1 attack is the only way to ensure you can't be run over by pure zeal.
If you read the whole reply, you'll notice that I didn't completely disagree with opening pure lings. I just disagreed with opening pure ling on certain maps and staying pure ling against this. Banelings are a much better alternative to +1 lings against zealots. The +1 for lings just doesn't finish fast enough to stop the zealot/stalker 4 gate.
On December 21 2010 02:41 Orome wrote: Interesting, and it seems you have way more knowledge and experience with this than I do. You might be right, although I believe Artosis has advocated getting banelings instead of roaches as well.
What level do you play at yourself?
I actually play protoss and I regularly play with top 200 and top 100 US zergs. Again, I don't have much experience with banelings, but it most probably works on large maps with narrow chokes.
On December 21 2010 02:41 Orome wrote: Interesting, and it seems you have way more knowledge and experience with this than I do. You might be right, although I believe Artosis has advocated getting banelings instead of roaches as well.
What level do you play at yourself?
I actually play protoss and I regularly play with top 200 and top 100 US zergs. Again, I don't have much experience with banelings, but it most probably works on large maps with narrow chokes.
Banelings are good too... but you need to be on the ball if you get them. It's the whole "make the minimum amount and make sure to not let any go to waste" kind of deal. If you have good ling/bling micro I say it's awesome. If you're ehh with micro and are more comfortable just getting a good position and a moving a bit... then I think roach style is better. It's a matter of play style.. but also a matter of how tight the game is... blings don't transition too well out of the early game unless you know how to use them well.
When I used to 4 gate (as Toss), the two things that would stop my 4 gate cold is pure +1 lings, but also 4 well-placed crawlers, especially if they used the evo chamber to block pathing to the crawlers (and ramp). Fast roaches and banelings have worked too, but mass speedlings is what I feared most because there was absolutely no way to recover. I find 4 gate very weak because it doesn't provide enough gas for adequate sentries for the push. And if the push fails, it's pretty much gg.
FYI: 4 gate is scouted if toss is putting down multiple gates off only one gas. As Zerg, I would always scout the gas to see what is coming (I see too few Zerg scout gas, instead scout the front of my main). If only one gas is taken, you can be pretty sure 4 gate is coming. If you scout two gas, then you have to try and scout further to see if there are multiple gates (likely meaning 3 gate expo), a robo (w/ 1-2 gate = likely expo, w/ 3 gate = likely one-base timing push), and 1-2 gates with nothing else = likely void ray.
That's all the help for Zerg I feel like giving for this week
One thing that makes 4 gate even harder to stop is when toss pokes with 1 zealot+1 stalker or 2 stalkers in the beginning. That makes it even harder to squeeze in drones.
This is an amazing guide, but I haven't really been able to find any reps (not that its neccessary.) but can anyone link me to some good defenses so I can see the micro being pulled off? I'd appreciate it.
well is pretty hard to stop, i put 3 spine crawlers an do mass roach, the micro battle begins
but a friend got a variant much more deadly, the most of the times you are defending an expansion so he put another proxy pylon and while hes pushing the expansion send you another 3 zealots to your main so you cant defend both beacuse if you send troops to the main you lose the expansion, and if you dont defend the main, you lose it and is gg etither.
I still have huge difficulties vs 4-gate, but hopefully I'm learning. Before I always had too many drones and now I have too few so I think eventually I will get a better understanding of it The few drones, big army at start of push can be nice but you really have to kill his army and pylon right away to get away with it, and otherwise it's such a big fail.
Pure ling is a terrible idea, long dead now that strategy has advanced somewhat.
Larvae as resource has developed as a concept now, and pure lings are a disaster as they are so larva-inefficient. For defending, 2 lings is way less useful than one roach or one Spine. Every set of lings means one less drone / spine. If you have ever seen 12 lings get ripped up by a zealot/stalker ball in 3 seconds, well, that's 4 drones or 4 spines.
Larva efficiency is the concept which stops 2rax AND 4-gates. This means LOTS of drones which gives eco, extra queens (which don't consume larvae, let you spread creep without losing injects, transfuse spines/roaches/eachother, and provide anti-air defense in case of later void-switch), make spines, a few roaches and then if you need emergency support, squeeze out some ings to tide you over mid-fight.
However, that doesn't mean you can skip ling speed + 2 scout lings. Early ling speed = early map control, which means you can shut down scouts and proxy pylon placement until his army actually arrives. This will you save you 20-40 seconds at least.
This means you want to be going Pool and Gas before Hatch ideally, if he's going a faster variant! Not too late on the hatch or again, larva starved.
Hey 4kmonk, I thought your guide was so great that I casted a game of me holding off a zealot/stalker 4 gate. In it, I just try to show your principals in action, so hopefully it can serve as a nice supplemental resource to your guide.
Anyone who's having trouble with 4 gate should read this guide; it's excellent!
Awesome advice by OP. As toss, I like the zealot stalker 1 gas 4 gate. I approach with a healthy mix, try to attack right as cooldown finishes, then when I see whether they're ling or roach heavy, I warp in the appropriate units. If all lings, just warp 4 zealots. It's very powerful. My biggest issues are when zerg has some good spine crawlers down and was ready to make units because they scouted me moving out.
I've done a 4 gate in master league that cuts probes at 18 and wins almost every time. The two most important things to do as zerg is:
1) Scout it. Not only the incoming 4 gate, but the proxy pylon.
2) Make the right unit composition. Lings are great against stalkers. Roaches against zealots. Just micro like a beast and get a spine crawler in a good spot, and you'll be fine.
Oh, and don't let your queen die while you are making other units. She can be super useful during an actual fight, but if she dies before you even get a round of units out, she's wasted.
Thanks for the post. It helped me overcome my losing streak to 4 gates. Just to add, I found that if the opponent has stalker/zealots (maybe a 1-2 sentries), it's easier to win micro-wise by hiding my lings and attacking from behind when they engage the spine. If done right reinforcing roaches will come from the front and toss won't be able to retreat.
Just a funny note. This only works on certain maps where you can flank an expo. I tried this on Jungle Basin, and to my eternal embarrassment, the Toss player force fielded my forces out of my own base.
Scout no sentry at his ramp, throw down one spine at your base, a roach warren and tech to lair. Cut drones when you have efficient saturation at main and 6-7 at nat then you want a good mix of roaches and lings. I get by with around 5 roaches and otherwise all lings against the earliest 4 gate pushes, after that you have to keep pumping lings non stop and try to get your roaches to around 8. Replace any roaches that die, but you don't want to overshoot too much because lings are essential to tank hits from stalkers while roaches do the damage.
On January 21 2011 03:37 Cambam wrote: Hey 4kmonk, I thought your guide was so great that I casted a game of me holding off a zealot/stalker 4 gate. In it, I just try to show your principals in action, so hopefully it can serve as a nice supplemental resource to your guide.
Anyone who's having trouble with 4 gate should read this guide; it's excellent!
I am having trouble with the 3 gate + robo timing attack, because I don't know how to respond to it properly. It comes a bit later than the standard 4 gate, so can I drone more? And does ling roach cuts it, or do you have to tech to hydras asap?
Maybe I have difficulties microing, but it is hard to get to the immortal with lings since there are zealots, and the immortal eats roaches alive. With only one immortal, I feel that I could maybe hold up with roaches, but if they wait for several immortals, since I cut drone at 21 I don't have quite the economy to tech hydras. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Thank you for the post, how do you feel about ignoring spines on certain maps (I'm mostly thinking of Xel'naga)
The +1 armor post... +armor on lings/queen/roach is a substantial upgrade, and unlike +1 attack would affect all of these units. It doesn't seem like the best plan BC 100gas is obviously quite important at this stage (ie before or during 4 gate) and the upgrade time for +1 armor is so long.
I thought there was some sizable benefit of +1 armor for ling against stalker considering ling regen. I guess +2 armor would maybe make stalker take 5 shots to kill a ling (5*10 - 10 = 40 and ling may regen the 5 hp? don't think so). Anyone know what I am trying to point out? Can't go to unit tester at the moment.
On January 21 2011 03:37 Cambam wrote: Hey 4kmonk, I thought your guide was so great that I casted a game of me holding off a zealot/stalker 4 gate. In it, I just try to show your principals in action, so hopefully it can serve as a nice supplemental resource to your guide.
Anyone who's having trouble with 4 gate should read this guide; it's excellent!
On January 21 2011 03:37 Cambam wrote: Hey 4kmonk, I thought your guide was so great that I casted a game of me holding off a zealot/stalker 4 gate. In it, I just try to show your principals in action, so hopefully it can serve as a nice supplemental resource to your guide.
Anyone who's having trouble with 4 gate should read this guide; it's excellent!
Protoss player from bronze? You could have double expand and hold it.
Seriously, why do people insist on posting replays of "holding" a 4gate when the attack happens a full MINUTE slower than it's supposed to?
60 seconds is a really long time in this game.
Hm.. While this probably sounds like trash since I'm silver league, I think it's safe to say that the zerg player is also a full minute slower than he's supposed to be. While this wasn't the best timed 4 gate ever, the errors that led to the delay are surely equivalent to the delays that the zerg player had while preparing for it. Thus, I think it pretty much balances out. Also, this may have been his first time "holding off" a 4-gate. I'd be happy, and put due credit to the thread that helped me overcome it too. O_O.. Yeah... I guess this video doesn't help a large majority of people on this forum, but it helped me. Call me noob but his video helped me because I saw it via a video rather reading text. It's not the best demonstration, but as a visual learner, it's better than nothing.
I actually have a question I'd like to pose to high level zergs. I'm gold league, and when I get 4gated I notice that very often protoss takes ALL of his units to attack, including the zealot at his ramp. I've actually been able to hold a 4gate a couple of times now by planting 2 spines at my natural, defending with roaches and taking a bunch(~10) lings into his main and just killing all his probes while he's attacking, then allyou'd have to do is defend the units he has since he won't be able to make any more I don't know if this is really viable for higher level players, but I did come across an interesting replay of Dimaga vs nani, where nani 4gates and has nothing defending his base.
On April 06 2011 05:41 najreteip wrote: I actually have a question I'd like to pose to high level zergs. I'm gold league, and when I get 4gated I notice that very often protoss takes ALL of his units to attack, including the zealot at his ramp. I've actually been able to hold a 4gate a couple of times now by planting 2 spines at my natural, defending with roaches and taking a bunch(~10) lings into his main and just killing all his probes while he's attacking, then allyou'd have to do is defend the units he has since he won't be able to make any more I don't know if this is really viable for higher level players, but I did come across an interesting replay of Dimaga vs nani, where nani 4gates and has nothing defending his base.
Why do you think roaches are mandatory to hold off a korean 4 gate (zealot stalker)? Literally every pro I've seen has simply massed ling (cutting drones at 20-22) and crushed the initial warp in/destroyed the pylon. The game is almost always over at that point. Seems to me like this version has a direct counter, but the scouting is the difficult part (as protoss can fake getting their second gas)
On April 06 2011 05:41 najreteip wrote: I actually have a question I'd like to pose to high level zergs. I'm gold league, and when I get 4gated I notice that very often protoss takes ALL of his units to attack, including the zealot at his ramp. I've actually been able to hold a 4gate a couple of times now by planting 2 spines at my natural, defending with roaches and taking a bunch(~10) lings into his main and just killing all his probes while he's attacking, then allyou'd have to do is defend the units he has since he won't be able to make any more I don't know if this is really viable for higher level players, but I did come across an interesting replay of Dimaga vs nani, where nani 4gates and has nothing defending his base.
It's not that hard. You don't need to cut a lot of drones. You don't need roaches, mutas or hydras. Speedlings and 4-6 spines (depending on the timing) are all you need. You want the majority of your lings to defend with the spine and a small group to run into his base and rape his probe line. You can transition to anything afterward but you don't need to cut an awful lot of drones.
As a Protoss I would say that the best way to defend against a scouted 4 gate is to build some spine crawlers(1-2) and loads of speedlings. Try to spread them out to get a good flank fight only in range of the Spines. Or if you went gas before pool just keep killing the pylon with your lings and get roaches with Burrow if you can keep the proxy pylon dead. If you don't scout it best of luck it can be super difficult if you don't know it coming so keep lots of scouting up. Best of luck to you.
lair + burrow comes way after a 4gate hits. If you're defending a 4gate with burrowed roaches it must be one of the latest 4gates ever.
It's worth building some speedlings in order to go kill their pylon. Other than that i don't recommend it. One of the priorities against any 4gate should be to pick off their sentries, so they can't forcefield the ramp. You can't necessarily do that with speedlings.
Also you need to target fire units in a 4gate, speedlings spread their damage around which isn't what you want. But having said that, speedlings can be useful if they don't make enough zealots and you already have roaches.
Also someone mentioned +1 armor i'm not sure what the purpose of that would be. Speedlings will still take 3 shots from zealots and 4 from stalkers.
I would say that in most situations the toss that 4gates will get overconfident and leav his base undefended, remember he stops making probes at around 25/200, so if ur able to get inside and kill off even a few, his attack will be severely weakened or Delayed.
Properly executed 1 gas 4gate hits way before burrow and lair. The warpgate research can finish at approx 5:30 (depending on variance in probe cutting, the unit built after zealot, and cyber chrono). 7 units can be up in your face, on the creep, at 6:00.
I believe that (after scouting) the best solution is, as posted before, spines and speedlings. The more important decision is to cut drones at 20-22. If you overdrone against a proper 4gate (which cuts probes at 20-23), then it is a death sentence. Once scouted, all larva must be committed to units. Pure speedling can hold handsomely, however a slightly delayed 4gate (so their ball of units is bigger) can prove difficult for speedlings, so the latter stages of the rush require roaches or spines to hold effectively.
The most important part is spotting the 4gate, which includes glimpsing at whether the cyber core is being chrono boosted, being aware of the Protoss gas timings, and scouting at 5:00 for extra warpgates and then his front at 5:30 for gateways being warped into warpgates.
On April 06 2011 05:41 najreteip wrote: I actually have a question I'd like to pose to high level zergs. I'm gold league, and when I get 4gated I notice that very often protoss takes ALL of his units to attack, including the zealot at his ramp. I've actually been able to hold a 4gate a couple of times now by planting 2 spines at my natural, defending with roaches and taking a bunch(~10) lings into his main and just killing all his probes while he's attacking, then allyou'd have to do is defend the units he has since he won't be able to make any more I don't know if this is really viable for higher level players, but I did come across an interesting replay of Dimaga vs nani, where nani 4gates and has nothing defending his base.
i feel like there should be a thread called "how to do the same build every game as protoss from bronze league to grandmaster" im pretty sure this takes skills
Maps with wide chokes(xelnaga, metal and delta) These naturals are not defended as efficiently with spine crawlers. Although spines are definitely still useful in these situations be wary that with improper spine placement, the protoss can simply walk around your spines.
I like to use evo chambers on open naturals to protect my spine somewhat and funnel zealots into a choke. I find that using a more ling heavy army with some roaches works better, as my roaches movement is limited due to the evo chambers, this is Silver :>
Does anyone in higher divisions have suggestions for evo chamber placement for defense and if it's actually worth it?
On April 09 2011 23:29 ImBakedBro wrote: i feel like there should be a thread called "how to do the same build every game as protoss from bronze league to grandmaster" im pretty sure this takes skills
the sad thing is, that this is nearly true. You can at least hit mid-diamond with only being able to play 4gate and if it doesnt fail to terrible just follow it up with another 1base cheese or all-in... what I consider even sader is that a lot of protoss tell you how good they are because they can perform 3different 4gate timings and (this is an actual qoute from a guy I lost to some months ago on the ladder in diamond and goes something like this):
RandomDiamondProtoss wrote: it's not so easy because you have to build the right units and if you lose your units you cannot expand
Maps with wide chokes(xelnaga, metal and delta) These naturals are not defended as efficiently with spine crawlers. Although spines are definitely still useful in these situations be wary that with improper spine placement, the protoss can simply walk around your spines.
I like to use evo chambers on open naturals to protect my spine somewhat and funnel zealots into a choke. I find that using a more ling heavy army with some roaches works better, as my roaches movement is limited due to the evo chambers, this is Silver :>
Does anyone in higher divisions have suggestions for evo chamber placement for defense and if it's actually worth it?
Yes i think as a zerg player we need to think more and more sim city out of the few buildings we are making. And one of the best buildings to build sim city with is the evo. chamber. It is cheap and will be able to transition the anything. I think 2 or 3 evo. chambers is the standard in the future. But imo if u want to create a narrow choke i recommend throwing down at least 2 spines. Just because it is so easy to forfcefield your army for protoss in a narrow choke. And spines is great vs forcefield. And the great thing is that the more spines you throw down the more drones can you make or queens to heal the spines. Even though i dont think that in the GM-league the static defence might not be the best.
I feel like the zerg counter to 4-gate is really just spine-crawlers into roaches, despite the type of 4 gate. If its a pure zealot 4 gate all in, and they are just rushing with sets of 4 zealots, 3 spine crawlers can take them all out while only taking a few hits (and you should have zerglings or roaches on the way). If its stalker zealot about the same rules apply, the stalkers probably could take one out but it would require that they lose so much, and it gives you plenty of time to make more zerglings, or roaches.
Idk, im not a 3k+ player but I've never really had trouble with 4 gate unless its un-scouted or you are not preparing for it.
1. What's the significance of 10 gateway vs. 13 gateway? Why does a protoss pick one or the other and what does it specifically tell you?
2. What's the interaction of a gas steal by zerg with a 4 gate? It seems intuitive that it would make a sentry composition less likely and also maybe provoke the 4 gate by denying some other 1-base tech play. But my intuitions are based on some pretty low-level play.
Managed to hold a fewfour gate, I am at high silver in SEA server, so you can choose to ignore this.
For any bronze/silver/gold who have scouted the 4 gate when the gates only starting to construct, pump 2 or 3 more drones and begin getting roach. then immediately get spines and some lings, preferably around 12 lings.
Get 6 lings to move out and scout where he put the pylon. snipe it down while you use your queen, the other lings and roach defending
Depending how well you have defended, sent some of your ling and see how big his army is at his front. If not too big, get 2 or 3 more drones and the rest goes for army.
I like getting quite a large number of lings because they are useful to counter attack and sniping the proxy pylons.
Remember to tech up, you MUST tech up (not too sure when I do it through). Protoss like to mix in DT in the 3rd push, without detection, this will cost you the whole game.
the strongest pushes are only the 1st and 2nd, 3rd will always be mixed with some nasty units like DT and Void rays. but at that time, you should have a much better worker counts, you can afford to put more spine and spore.
Be careful where you fight as well, if you see he get one sentry, he will most likely FF your ramp. this is why I like keeping some lings outside the base, for a better surround and also sniping sentries off.
On May 18 2011 21:02 ETisME wrote: Managed to hold a fewfour gate, I am at high silver in SEA server, so you can choose to ignore this.
For any bronze/silver/gold who have scouted the 4 gate when the gates only starting to construct, pump 2 or 3 more drones and begin getting roach. then immediately get spines and some lings, preferably around 12 lings.
Get 6 lings to move out and scout where he put the pylon. snipe it down while you use your queen, the other lings and roach defending
Depending how well you have defended, sent some of your ling and see how big his army is at his front. If not too big, get 2 or 3 more drones and the rest goes for army.
I like getting quite a large number of lings because they are useful to counter attack and sniping the proxy pylons.
Remember to tech up, you MUST tech up (not too sure when I do it through). Protoss like to mix in DT in the 3rd push, without detection, this will cost you the whole game.
the strongest pushes are only the 1st and 2nd, 3rd will always be mixed with some nasty units like DT and Void rays. but at that time, you should have a much better worker counts, you can afford to put more spine and spore.
Be careful where you fight as well, if you see he get one sentry, he will most likely FF your ramp. this is why I like keeping some lings outside the base, for a better surround and also sniping sentries off.
The 4 gate is MUCH weaker than it was now though remember, when this post was made, the 4 gate was very strong.
On May 18 2011 21:02 ETisME wrote: Managed to hold a fewfour gate, I am at high silver in SEA server, so you can choose to ignore this.
For any bronze/silver/gold who have scouted the 4 gate when the gates only starting to construct, pump 2 or 3 more drones and begin getting roach. then immediately get spines and some lings, preferably around 12 lings.
Get 6 lings to move out and scout where he put the pylon. snipe it down while you use your queen, the other lings and roach defending
Depending how well you have defended, sent some of your ling and see how big his army is at his front. If not too big, get 2 or 3 more drones and the rest goes for army.
I like getting quite a large number of lings because they are useful to counter attack and sniping the proxy pylons.
Remember to tech up, you MUST tech up (not too sure when I do it through). Protoss like to mix in DT in the 3rd push, without detection, this will cost you the whole game.
the strongest pushes are only the 1st and 2nd, 3rd will always be mixed with some nasty units like DT and Void rays. but at that time, you should have a much better worker counts, you can afford to put more spine and spore.
Be careful where you fight as well, if you see he get one sentry, he will most likely FF your ramp. this is why I like keeping some lings outside the base, for a better surround and also sniping sentries off.
If he's getting Dts and Void Rays, then you should have won already . A 4 gate, if executed properly should not have any minerals with which to tech up with, so in fact teching is a bad idea, since he *should* be using all his money to make units, and if you are teching, you are going to fall behind on army.
EPT
. A 4 gate, if executed properly should not have any minerals with which to tech up with, so in fact teching is a bad idea, since he *should* be using all his money to make units, and if you are teching, you are going to fall behind on army. 
