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Hello TL Community!
I like this game, and I like watching it a lot. In several videos I've seen, most notably a couple PvT's I've watched Day[9] cast, there is a mention of the evolution of PvT to favor a mass gateway style versus Terran. While this strategy may be well known to good Protoss players, I searched the forums for any threads addressing this style and strategy, and found none with the same title, and few of them addressed it in content. So, I decided to bring the discussion forward. Since this is my go-to strategy against terran players, I will be continually adding replays from the ladder games I play. For those of you that would love to know, I'm currently 2200 diamond on the ladder.
For the TL;DR: This thread was tagged as [D] to discuss the strategy and execution surrounding a style of play that's already known. This post is meant to help protoss players, perhaps in lower leagues, that feel stuck in 'colossus mode.' Please keep comments limited to concise questions or key points and weaknesses, and replays!
Overview:
The PvT mass gateway style is exactly how it sounds, and this strategy really seems to show great synergy in its execution and transitioning. It is a macro style of play that can take full advantage of the protoss warp-in mechanic as a tool for aggressive reinforcement and harassment.
Transitioning:
The mass gateway play, as a macro strategy at heart, can become incredibly powerful in the lategame, so it will usually be best executed in the style of kcdc's PvT FE. As gateways become plentiful and multiple tech paths available with added resources, players can take every advantage of the Protoss tech tree to complement the strategy.
Templar tech is the best transition by far. The twilight council becomes a necessary structure to gain the charge and blink upgrades to improve the gateway unit viability, so naturally the most logical place to go from here is templar, to unlock psi storm and feedback, the two most baller spells ever. DTs become a great tool for harassment, as it forces the terran player to save scans or purchase a raven for mobile detection. With the templar tech out already, the raven's PDD becomes less powerful with the ability to feedback it. Banshees can also be feedbacked before coming into range of the main army. Also, archons are awesome.
Robo tech unlocks an incredible mode of harassment with the warp prism, which can bring drops and skirmishes back into style on the terran player to prevent expos by the use of insta storm and chargelot attacks. This is demonstrated really well in one of the GSL 3 finals games + Show Spoiler +between oGsMC and TSL_Rain, where MC demonstrated amazing aggression and warp prism play.
Stargate tech is virtually unused, at least in my experience with this style.
A link to kcdc's PvT FE:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142887
The first Replay:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-175035.jpg)
This replay isn't so exemplary in how effective a strategy this is, mostly due to the poor macro of my opponent. A 200/200 fight would have been a much better demonstration, but I was so far ahead that the actual attacking portion of the game ended up in slaughter. HOWEVER, I felt this replay was a good demonstration of how the build looks (as a skeleton) and transitions well into templar tech.
I'd love to have more replays for you all at the start, but the ones that I had with this strategy were against some terran players with pretty bad macro. I'm really looking for the perfect replay of like a super long game to help demonstrate this. As noted earlier, in the GSL 3 finals, + Show Spoiler +oGsMC v. TSL_Rain on Lost Temple
So, please help me develop this strategy on some more firm ground with replays of you being both a baller and losing terribly with this strategy! I will look for higher level replays and add that too.
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Good start to the thread and anyone that Links up Kcdc is cool in my book. I don't know many protoss that are using this alot. I mean isn't this more really what kcdc does. After you expo you either transition into mass gateway or robo tech your choice. I am not sure how this is different. The Lost Temple game between Mc and Rain was kind of bad example because Rain tried to contain and it failed but robo was out. Also MC had every tech tree so it was kind of bad opening but the mid-late game was great.
I will look at the replay as to not be a total dumbass and to not lend to theorycraft discussions that will ensue because people wont watch your replay. Will come back to edit after looking.
Ok after watching your replay the number 1 criticism you are going to receive is banshee play. You are defended at the main with cannons placed at critical spots. Your natural is wide open until 19 minutes when your 2 robos come online. So the what-ifs are going to be banshee play.
Now the difference I would say between what you describe here and MCs style is that its multiple gateways from the beginning allowing him to pressure early (also allowing scouting incase of banshee tech) Here you did no early aggression it was basically Kcdc with no robo and just Gateways and templars.
So if you use this style and terran goes banshee you can't move out until you have a robo. yea the cannons at main would help for defense but terrible at being aggressive.
Look here and maybe adjust it This is oGsMC style of mass gateway in PvT. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=178119
This is MC's style with mass gateway aggression and stargate play added in. Which would allow him to react if he needs to deal with a banshee. By scouting with his voids or phoenix.
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I'm not sure, as once a MMM ball reaches critical mass it will roflstomp a usual gateway army without any kind of support. You'd have to have amazing forcefields and control, or maybe even two forges constantly pumping out upgrades, and even then you'd be hanging by a thread.
And you'd still have to get that damb robo facility, may aswell make something from it.
I dunno, I don't feel like pioneering anything, and unless this gets widespread aclaim, then I'm staying away from it.
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this style is very interesting , but it meant to play more aggressive game , u should research blink asap , and harras his buildings , mineral lines , make warp prism warp in some zealots in back of his main kill some supply depots , add-ons , use proxy pylons to warp some 75 energy templars.
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Yeah I use this in almost all of my PvT's now. It's so effective and easy to transition out of when needed. I can supply replays if you want some 
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On December 20 2010 07:25 Gemini_19 wrote:Yeah I use this in almost all of my PvT's now. It's so effective and easy to transition out of when needed. I can supply replays if you want some
Yea I need to see more replays please especially against banshee and thor openings.
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this is exactly how i like to play pvt. i don't like how the colossus makes the game develop so if i end up using them it's late and at least on 2 fully sat bases of 3. upgrade gateways units with twilight tech are really strong and then add in both Templar tech trees when you have the gas. open with the 1 gate FE every single time :D
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I use this pretty frequently PvT lately but in watching my replays, the Terran is too passive and I'm way too greedy for it to be realistic. In addition to all this, two forges with Chrono Boosted upgrades gives you a Gateway army that, in combination with Guardian Shield, is pretty tough to kill.
You still definitely need that Robotics Facility though, to scout or get an Immortal or two early. If Terran decides to get a bunch of Thors later on in the game, you have to respond with Immortals because Gateway units aren't quite tough enough to take that on. Also as someone else mentioned, without a Robo you'll just die to Banshees.
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I also have been more in favor of gateway units and Immortals for the robo time. Getting Templar tech seems far more deadly and it (should) forces the use of Ghosts, aka, micro. Vikings are just too hard of pwnage vs Colosii and their Reactor gives them a quick critical mass of vikings that also prevent you from ever getting control of the air.
I think most Terrans would do better getting armor upgrades, Combat Shields, Concussive Shells and Ghosts. Instead, they all seem to be stuck in damage/stim/medivac mode. This makes Chargelots, Force Field's and Storm feel so powerful.
I feel after getting a couple observers, 3-4 Immortals, your storm upgrade and a couple of High Templar, then you should go into Stargate and Void Rays. Though apparently swapping the Immortal and Void Ray times can work out too in certain situations (very aggressive 1 base Terran).
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On December 20 2010 06:56 oZii wrote:Good start to the thread and anyone that Links up Kcdc is cool in my book. I don't know many protoss that are using this alot. I mean isn't this more really what kcdc does. After you expo you either transition into mass gateway or robo tech your choice. I am not sure how this is different. The Lost Temple game between Mc and Rain was kind of bad example because Rain tried to contain and it failed but robo was out. Also MC had every tech tree so it was kind of bad opening but the mid-late game was great. I will look at the replay as to not be a total dumbass and to not lend to theorycraft discussions that will ensue because people wont watch your replay. Will come back to edit after looking. Ok after watching your replay the number 1 criticism you are going to receive is banshee play. You are defended at the main with cannons placed at critical spots. Your natural is wide open until 19 minutes when your 2 robos come online. So the what-ifs are going to be banshee play. Now the difference I would say between what you describe here and MCs style is that its multiple gateways from the beginning allowing him to pressure early (also allowing scouting incase of banshee tech) Here you did no early aggression it was basically Kcdc with no robo and just Gateways and templars. Look here and maybe adjust it This is oGsMC style of mass gateway in PvT. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=178119
All good points, and it's true that banshee tech would put a huge whole in my eco. But thanks for the replay! Like I said, this thread is for development of a strategy, not necessarily to state anything new or ground-breaking. I'll be sure to post the first game I get banshee harassed with, win or lose. That said, if anybody else has a replay of theirs to submit, that would be cool too!
To address the banshee issue a bit, i would have to check out to see when forges were up, as some cannons could have been thrown up as a precaution (which I've done in a few games that ended up in me recieving banshee harassment)
EDIT:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-175132.jpg)
Here's a replay I forgot that I had. We were close by air on LT but I was going for the same strategy, so I threw down some defensive cannons as a precaution, I had zero scouting of his base. Continuing failure to scout resulted in him massing banshees that absolutely murders me, but this demonstrates the cannon as a precaution kind of thing.
EDIT no. 2:
On December 20 2010 07:25 Gemini_19 wrote:Yeah I use this in almost all of my PvT's now. It's so effective and easy to transition out of when needed. I can supply replays if you want some
Please supply your replays! That's exactly what I hope for people to add to this topic :D
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On December 20 2010 09:39 ShamTao wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2010 06:56 oZii wrote:Good start to the thread and anyone that Links up Kcdc is cool in my book. I don't know many protoss that are using this alot. I mean isn't this more really what kcdc does. After you expo you either transition into mass gateway or robo tech your choice. I am not sure how this is different. The Lost Temple game between Mc and Rain was kind of bad example because Rain tried to contain and it failed but robo was out. Also MC had every tech tree so it was kind of bad opening but the mid-late game was great. I will look at the replay as to not be a total dumbass and to not lend to theorycraft discussions that will ensue because people wont watch your replay. Will come back to edit after looking. Ok after watching your replay the number 1 criticism you are going to receive is banshee play. You are defended at the main with cannons placed at critical spots. Your natural is wide open until 19 minutes when your 2 robos come online. So the what-ifs are going to be banshee play. Now the difference I would say between what you describe here and MCs style is that its multiple gateways from the beginning allowing him to pressure early (also allowing scouting incase of banshee tech) Here you did no early aggression it was basically Kcdc with no robo and just Gateways and templars. Look here and maybe adjust it This is oGsMC style of mass gateway in PvT. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=178119 All good points, and it's true that banshee tech would put a huge whole in my eco. But thanks for the replay! Like I said, this thread is for development of a strategy, not necessarily to state anything new or ground-breaking. I'll be sure to post the first game I get banshee harassed with, win or lose. That said, if anybody else has a replay of theirs to submit, that would be cool too! To address the banshee issue a bit, i would have to check out to see when forges were up, as some cannons could have been thrown up as a precaution (which I've done in a few games that ended up in me recieving banshee harassment) EDIT: Here's a replay I forgot that I had. We were close by air on LT but I was going for the same strategy, so I threw down some defensive cannons as a precaution, I had zero scouting of his base. Continuing failure to scout resulted in him massing banshees that absolutely murders me, but this demonstrates the cannon as a precaution kind of thing. EDIT no. 2: Show nested quote +On December 20 2010 07:25 Gemini_19 wrote:Yeah I use this in almost all of my PvT's now. It's so effective and easy to transition out of when needed. I can supply replays if you want some Please supply your replays! That's exactly what I hope for people to add to this topic :D
if you know this than ignore this as you're 2200 diamond and have probably ran into your share of banshee openings. if you poke with your first few gateway units ( your 1 zealot 2 stalker if you are doing the kcdc build right) you can at least run up his ramp. so you see a tech lab on a barrack and another barracks or a few marauders with conc shell banshees will at least be delayed. if there is a bunker or just marines he is teching and your goal is now get an obs. again, if you know this then good :d just saying as i like to delay my robo and colossi tech as long as i can to get the most econ running before getting the colossus so i have a ton of gateway units with hopefully forge upgrades or twilight upgrades.
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true, i certainly don't do enough poking and prodding to do any kind of harassment. aggression's always been a little difficult for me to pull off
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http://www.mediafire.com/?2t8zlvvkrslm8b7
This is a rep of me vs. a terran on Jungle a day after the Hong Un Prime games...
Basically I went a really early expo (I think even a 15 nexus) and then I threw down double forge while having 6 gates, then transitioned to HT.
With good feedbacks and some storm, I was able to roll the Ghost-MMM army of my terran opponent.
2100+ Diamond (Be kind  I know I'm bad for TL.net standards XD)
EDIT: As for obs, I also had a robo, and produced obs throughout the game (1 outside main, 1 in middle of map, 1 by army, and 1 near base)
This really helped for positioning, knowing when to be defensive, etc. Really worth the cost of the robo, didn't put me behind by much, because the knowledge was a really good advantage.
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EPT
