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This was made during the GSL3 where I asked about the possibility of Jinro playing mech vs. MC. It seemed like many top players disagreed, but now this style has caught on, I reckon its necessary to bring this topic back up for discussion.
I hate to be a lowly masters T player and say "I told you so"... So I will begin this topic like this:
How can Mech play be effectively used vs. protoss? Is it only as a transitional phase between bio and lategame or a viable earlygame tech path?
OLD:
+ Show Spoiler +First of all, I am not sure if this is entirely acceptable due to the possibility of ruining surprises the players are hiding. Beyond that, if anything is wrong with it, please lock. CONTAINS: SPOILER ON GSL3 - RO8 Games EDIT: I hate to bump this up but.......  Can we see if its viable, now + Show Spoiler +that Jinro has proved it possible?
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ORIGINAL POST:
+ Show Spoiler +NO LONGER RELEVANT: Having said that, it is time for our favorite Korean oGsMC to battle in a teamkill clash against our awesome friend Liquid'Jinro. There are quite a few of us who are hoping for the best for Jinro, but he has stated himself that the chances are quite slim for him. oGsMC has said that his win-rate against Terran is 95% (this is not technically proven wrong at all by the MarineKingPrime game, statistically speaking we do not have enough data to be able to analyze a 3-1). Since Jinro is MC's main practice partner, I have a feeling that 95% is contributed largely by Jinro.
So according to the players, MC is heavily favored.
WHY:
Macro:
Jinro is known for his ability to outmacro his opponents as a Terran, he retains the foreigner style of expanding as much as possible while abusing orbital scans. However, it is a fact that MC's macro cannot be underestimated. I cannot really decipher who has the advantage here, as these two players have not played live together before and macro does not mean who can make more crap necessarily, macro is very dependent on the VS. player.
Micro:
Jinro is not known for his micro, not saying that it is subpar, but he has yet to prove to us that he can arc his marines faster than Foxer or studder-step his banshees more precisely than Boxer. MC had phenomenal High Templar micro against Foxer's ghosts. It may be because of Foxer's lack of practice with ghosts, so this does not mean everything. However, from his experiences with SC1 as a progamer, it is quite likely his micro is just one step ahead.
Game Sense/Decision Making:
MC is an aggressive player, so he gains game sense by pressuring his opponent at all times, keeping them in check with offensive units. This has the advantage, as described by the man himself, of creating psychological stress for the opponent. Jinro has great game sense through his love for scouting (see hero reaper), and an abuse of lolrbitals. Against an aggressive Protoss like MC, I would imagine that Jinro might not be able to spare scans as he could against Choya. Note Choya looked like he had better macro because Jinro was sacrificing mules, NOT because Jinro was falling behind.
If I had to rank the two, I would say that in a macro game, Jinro may have the better game sense and decision-making. The chances of MC allowing this is slim though, it is against his style. Therefore, I think there is a slight advantage for MC.
Overall:
The main reason why I think MC has the edge is because his ability to thin out his opponents and deflect absolutely everything is just amazing. He favors midgame pushes if the opponent is playing more aggressive, and he favors a early/midgame timing push followed by a macro overkill when advantage has been gained.
These speculations are only based on their games from this GSL season, because I personally believe that the situation and setting has a vast difference on a player.
What can Jinro do?
Jinro said himself that if he plays his style, he will most likely lose to MC. MC is a TvP mentor for Jinro and MC has Jinro's style figured out. I believe the best route of action is for Jinro to dust off the foreigner style and bust it out in the GSL.
The current metagame for GSL TvP is MMMG / Viking vs. Gateway / Collo into Gateway / HT. This is the case because either the Terran or Protoss player WILL do a early/mid game timing push that is designed to gain an advantage. MMM and Gateway are the only pathway to defend a timing push. The logical transition for P is Collosus as MMM will overrun Gateway units in the midgame. This will force a Viking transition, which will in turn force a HT transition. (Leaving out forge expand as MC doesn't do that). It seems like MC has this figured out, and breaks the chain somewhere between the MM to MMM transition through pressure timings.
This leads me to believe that Jinro should attempt another strategy:
Tank/Mech-transition.
This is not popular for the GSL as it requires the player to actually make a factory before 4000 barracks, a counter-intuitive move in the cheese plagued GSL3. It is however possible as a way to cut down midgame timing pushes. Tank semi-turtling can do wonders against gateway units. It will force airplay through phoenixes and void rays, or it will force collosus/Immortal play.
It is probably not the most viable way to play, but I'm proposing that a risky deviation may be beneficial. Cheese isn't that effective against MC, so an entirely new playstyle may be good to try out.
From this assumption, we are transitioning into a general discussion of tank play in response to an aggressive protoss style. MC and Jinro is just a case-study from this point on.Assume phoenixes:Phoenixes are a great counter to mass tanks, as it can lift sieged tanks. They also shut down any sort of airplay, as phoenixes pretty much hardcounters any starport unit. Mass marines must therefore be assumed. Since drops are risky during phoenix play, the Terran's army will remain fairly immobile. This will allow the Protoss to outmacro Terran, transitioning into HT or Collosus comfortably. The key to Terran defense before HT/Collo is for MM to stand between the tanks and phoenixes AND the gateway units at the same time. This usually means the army has to stay in base. Staying in base is not something the Terran wants to do against a protoss massing up a 200/200 army, Protoss HT tech at max can and will destroy MMM. A Terran then has to slowpush. I'm not the best T player when it comes to slowpushing against P, so this is up for discussion. Alternative: Thor. Not very sure, ideas? Assume void rays:Void rays can come in cheese-sized or deathball-sized. 1-3 VR cheese will prove difficult to us commoners, but I'm pretty sure top T's have it figured out that it becomes too dangerous to try, especially as MC wants to have a guaranteed play in every game. Gateway / Voidray midgame push: Very difficult to deal with, turrets are not particularly effective as a counter. Marines can be used, leading to the same effect as the phoenix play, with more emphasis on busting the tanks than expanding. Viking play will turn out into Tank/Viking. TvT much lol. I have no idea how it will turn out in TvP, any thoughts? (I personally think if Terran gains air dominance, drop play is a necessity). Assume Collosus / Immortal:I haven't seen this in a while in a top level game. From my measly 2000 T experience, I personally find it very hard as a Terran player. If the midgame push is held off, Collosus is still much more mobile than the tank army, and will likely lead to another subsequent deathball. Drop play seems like almost a necessity at this point. Collosus leads very little room for drop defense, the only viability is stalkers, which is possible to some extent. The other Terran response is banshee/raven play. This is probably going to require 3 bases, or heavily cut into tanks. What do you guys think? Viable? Conclusion:I'm not making a conclusion or a tl;dr. I admit this thread has pretty flimsy arguments due to the many assumptions made by me. We simply do not know enough about the current metagame through just the GSL. My question is however: If Terran is to move on from MMMG / Viking vs. P, will tanks be a good route to take? It should defend early gateway pushes decently, but teching or expanding will be much easier for the protoss. Main discussion points: If the foreign tank slowpush method is executed as a response to MC's hypothetical dominence, what will likely be resulted? What can be done to maximize the tank play? Assume Phoenix: Assume Void Rays: Assume Robo: Assume 4gate / gateway play: Any other viewpoints and discussions raised are welcome too. However I will not be making a poll, because TL is just too Jinro-loving to do anything with a poll other than bringing out some lame 1-sidedness. GOGO!
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Ever think of not spoiling something for others?
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why spoil with the title itself? -.-
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Extremely sorry...
Was not thinking at all.
Please lock or change out topic ASAP
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Naama plays this style very effectively in the dreamhack finals against Mana. I think it's largely map dependent as you want a relatively constricted map to do this on, Steppes, Delta, and Jungle all come to mind.
It might be too much to ask for Jinro to come up with an entirely new playstyle for the matchup in like 2-3 days though. Maybe he can try to work it into one or two games. I think the smartest play for Jinro would be to do a raven banshee timing all in one game, this tank play maybe one or two games, something a bit unorthodox like a pre-ignitor drop one game etc. Ultimately, the only way Jinro takes this series is if he plays within his comfort zone hes just going to have to play solid games.
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I'm confused...
Is this a thread discussing games that still haven't happened?
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Well this sorta sucks. IMPOSSIBLE to avoid this spoiler. Anyways.
I think Jinro will need to mix-in some completely new builds to win.
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On December 07 2010 23:16 Jombozeus wrote:
Assume void rays:
Viking play will turn out into Tank/Viking. TvT much lol. I have no idea how it will turn out in TvP, any thoughts?
(I personally think if Terran gains air dominance, drop play is a necessity).
P will most likely respond to tank viking with immo/chargelot/stalker play possibly switching back to phoenixes.
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+ Show Spoiler +
Part of that phenomenal templar vs ghost play that MC had on jungle basin (HIGHLY RECOMMENDED MATCH) was due to the fact that MC had a VISION advantage from controlling both the watchtowers, and so he could see every single ghost, and pick them off with feedback the moment they didnt have an escort.
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tank play simply sucks vs P on most maps, not a viable option. Tanks take away the mobility from the entire army, do crap damage vs zealots and are gas heavy. Imo they are only good at LT and steppes of war vs protoss.
Best bet for Jinro if he doesn't favor his chances in the lategame is obviously to do a form of cheese.
Proxy factory thor rush or proxy stargate banshee play are still decent strategies as long as the patch doesnt go live and might give enough psychological advantage to win the rest of the games the normal way. I certainly expect jinro to do a all-in at least once or twice during the BO7. Games between practice mates can always be very weird as both players might want to deviate from their standard play just to get an edge.
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On December 07 2010 23:50 Markwerf wrote:
tank play simply sucks vs P on most maps, not a viable option. Tanks take away the mobility from the entire army, do crap damage vs zealots and are gas heavy. Imo they are only good at LT and steppes of war vs protoss.
Best bet for Jinro if he doesn't favor his chances in the lategame is obviously to do a form of cheese.
Proxy factory thor rush or proxy stargate banshee play are still decent strategies as long as the patch doesnt go live and might give enough psychological advantage to win the rest of the games the normal way. I certainly expect jinro to do a all-in at least once or twice during the BO7. Games between practice mates can always be very weird as both players might want to deviate from their standard play just to get an edge.
I think it has been quite proven that MC has the Terran cheese timings figured out. That's why I don't think it will be very easy for Jinro to cheese and win at all.
Tank play will not work 100% of the time, probably not even 50% of the time, but it may catch MC offguard. That's why I'm proposing it as a possibility in one of the more tank-favoring maps.
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Tanks are viable in TvP, you just need to figure out a way to keep protoss units off your units. Naama did this by making bunkers and doing ultra turtle slow push/contains with large layers of tanks and buildings in front of your tanks.
Use MMM to take up position outside of the Protoss natural and then throw down a hard contain with buildings and stuff while expanding with a raven or two for PDD. Problem is.. what do you do if you can't contain toss like that?
Can you slow push across the map?
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On December 08 2010 00:10 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Tanks are viable in TvP, you just need to figure out a way to keep protoss units off your units. Naama did this by making bunkers and doing ultra turtle slow push/contains with large layers of tanks and buildings in front of your tanks.
Use MMM to take up position outside of the Protoss natural and then throw down a hard contain with buildings and stuff while expanding with a raven or two for PDD. Problem is.. what do you do if you can't contain toss like that?
Can you slow push across the map?
My idea of how it may play out is that MC will scout with a stalker, but it will be denied, as the timing isn't right. The first confrontation with the tank will be MC's first push, which will probably consist of gateway units, and he will be shelled by 1 shot of tank and move back. From this point the Terran will be at an advantage because the Protoss had unnecessarily made too many units that are unable to bust the Terran.
The protoss will not proceed to either stargate tech, robo tech, or expand. There will be a timing from a mid-late game for the protoss, that may overrun the terran by outteching or outexpanding. A successful slowpush to expand is needed to catch up before the 200/200 deathball. It is worse off economically than a simple MMM push into expand, but it allows for more options as you are turtled and scouting is much harder for the Protoss.
This is very self-explanatory. But what I am saying is what are the advantages and/or disadvantages or the differences caused by the Korean PvT metagame? Will the tank push be more viable due to the way MC plays P?
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Doesn't PainUser have a TvP mech transition build he used against Tyler? IIRC it was a really solid build and Tyler thought it was really hard to beat.
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United States22883 Posts
It's an interesting idea, but I'm not knowledge enough on T to comment. Hopefully a good T can stop by.
+ Show Spoiler +One thing I was wondering was why Jinro didn't include any tanks into his army in g5. The production tab showed him researching siege and building a tank, but I never saw it on the map. Since he had the base advantage (as well as in g4), it seemed like 1-2 siege tanks would completely nullify the colossus advantage and force choya to engage whereever Jinro wanted him to.
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I'm currently listening to the SotG podcast, and I found day[9] advocating a carrier transition if terran goes tank.
His argument is that some Terrans are realizing that if they passive slow-push with tanks, it is actually harder for protoss. He has a long explanation, I recommend the december 5th podcast, at about 1/3 the way in. So according to what day[9] is saying, tank pushes may become more viable in the future, too.
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8748 Posts
Tank play is pretty damn bad imo. I thought naama played well in the dreamhack finals but he did not convince me at all that tank play is good TvP. He played a bad strategy really well and won. I'm sure inca or huk could have shown how weak it is but mana didn't seem to be on the same page as us. I highly doubt jinro is gonna make good use of tanks throughout the series. If he uses tanks, I'm sure it'll be map-specific.
He has to win by recognizing and stopping MC's early aggression and by having good micro, macro and army compositions in mid game.
Generally, against many factories, transitioning to stargates is good. against MM + tank, speed zealots are good. But macro and timings have to be adjusted for the different flow of the game. A protoss who simply changes his composition and continues to play the same is still vulnerable.
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On December 08 2010 01:47 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Tank play is pretty damn bad imo. I thought naama played well in the dreamhack finals but he did not convince me at all that tank play is good TvP. He played a bad strategy really well and won. I'm sure inca or huk could have shown how weak it is but mana didn't seem to be on the same page as us. I highly doubt jinro is gonna make good use of tanks throughout the series. If he uses tanks, I'm sure it'll be map-specific.
He has to win by recognizing and stopping MC's early aggression and by having good micro, macro and army compositions in mid game.
Generally, against many factories, transitioning to stargates is good. against MM + tank, speed zealots are good. But macro and timings have to be adjusted for the different flow of the game. A protoss who simply changes his composition and continues to play the same is still vulnerable.
QFT. Tank play in TvP is horrrrribbbleeeeee. With how there is unit movement literally every second, you can't afford TvP to siege/unsiege over and over like in TvT.
There's a reason why MMM+viking is standard, and that's because it is the most viable option, and has the most mobility and SC2 = mobility. I would entirely agree with OP that you can go tanks TvP and mech if this were like 4 patches ago when tanks did SC1 damage.
Sadly, they killed that mech aspect of TvP, so basically if you're still building tanks TvP you're pretty bad or doing an all-in, or not being as efficient as you can be. I didn't watch dreamhack so I can't comment.
175/125 for a 3 supply unit that has to be sieged/unsieged and let's you get caught with your pants down over and over is never going to trump the 100/25 mobile unit that is just as strong.
Also, the other weakness of tank play is that usually to open into it safely you need to go 1 rax into raven opening, and when you do this you basically have no ability to mass produce units. This opening was great when tanks did 55 damage because even though you did not have as much production capability the slowly accumulated firepower made up for it...but obviously that's not true in the current patch.
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You just need speed zealots against tanks, the charge ignores the range advantage and they need like 5 shots to be killed. And also, if you think about it, the siege tank is bad against all protoss units because they are too big and the Zealot/Sentry are light
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well i used to think that tanks suck, but then i saw tt1 losing 3-0 to sjow and yesterday white ra getting 2 -1'd by sjow on his stream so im not sure anymore, he doesnt mass tanks tho just mixes few to the army
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I've been meching TvP for a long, long time now. Even since 1.0. My issue with bio play TvP is that you cannot easily abuse Protoss immobility due to the warp-in mechanic and the sentry makes the match-up way too "coin flip" in regards to FF. If FF's are placed well and utilized correctly I feel like it is nearly impossible to actually overcome a gateway army with Bio. Combine that with the fact that I need to reactively make Vikings based on Collossus counts, which can then become flying paperweights if he techs out, MMM+V is just not my style.
I do like Tank play, I also like Thor play. In the next patch Thor rushing will be obsolete so that build is pretty much off the table for me. After watching Sjow's stream I'm really starting to dig Marine+Tank+Banshee and just outexpanding and out macroing the Protoss. I'm interested in the future to try some Pre-Igniter Hellion + Tank to see how that works out
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I always do a 'macro mech' style vs protoss, harrassing with preignitor hellions all game long. The key to winning with mech is CONSTANT scouting. If he is going for mass speed zealot/ immortal, then you make thors preemptively and research the strike cannon upgrade to 1shot his immortals while your hellions obliterate zealots.
If he goes stargate, a reactored starport shuts it down pretty easily. What's he going to do, fly into your army and shoot your vikings, or is he going to lift up your tanks? If he lifts up your tanks your gaggle of marines from your 1 or 2 barracks' will shoot them down with the vikings + any turrets you may have, as well as thors. If he has void rays, vikings can just out micro them hard.
The key to beating stargate play is just throwing down a starport as soon as you scout it, and swapping it onto one of your factories reactors. I usually take a starport over an additional factory somewhere around the time I take my third base, just to be safe if I didn't scout a stargate, so I don't get caught with my pants down. From there on out it's just dropping the hammer time on the protoss. Protoss army isnt mobile enough to keep up with hellion harrass, and if he invests in 2-3 cannons at each expo then your army is even stronger than his will be.
If he gets carriers, teching to battle cruisers with yamato cannon is HILARIOUS.
Thors 1shot immortals
BC's 1shot carriers
Tank/hellion rapes gateway units
vikings rape void rays
1-2 rax marine support with the vikings is enough to shut down phoenix lifter play. If you scout phoenixes build a turret by your tanks
Another really good strategy while meching is just to use your buildings SUPER EFFECTIVELY. Walling off the protosses attack lanes is pretty sweet when you have tanks.
The trick to mech is just countering the protosses army composition, and then rolling out like a bad ass to kill his main base.
So yea, you CAN slow push accross the map as long as you've been expanding a lot, because does it matter if you win now when you can win 20 minutes from now with a 200-200 3-3 army?
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Unless there is a miracle and Jinro improves his micro and "gamesense" by 1000% not gonna beat MC.
User was warned for this post
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On December 08 2010 03:23 QQmonster wrote:
I always do a 'macro mech' style vs protoss, harrassing with preignitor hellions all game long. The key to winning with mech is CONSTANT scouting. If he is going for mass speed zealot/ immortal, then you make thors preemptively and research the strike cannon upgrade to 1shot his immortals while your hellions obliterate zealots.
If he goes stargate, a reactored starport shuts it down pretty easily. What's he going to do, fly into your army and shoot your vikings, or is he going to lift up your tanks? If he lifts up your tanks your gaggle of marines from your 1 or 2 barracks' will shoot them down with the vikings + any turrets you may have, as well as thors. If he has void rays, vikings can just out micro them hard.
The key to beating stargate play is just throwing down a starport as soon as you scout it, and swapping it onto one of your factories reactors. I usually take a starport over an additional factory somewhere around the time I take my third base, just to be safe if I didn't scout a stargate, so I don't get caught with my pants down. From there on out it's just dropping the hammer time on the protoss. Protoss army isnt mobile enough to keep up with hellion harrass, and if he invests in 2-3 cannons at each expo then your army is even stronger than his will be.
If he gets carriers, teching to battle cruisers with yamato cannon is HILARIOUS.
Thors 1shot immortals
BC's 1shot carriers
Tank/hellion rapes gateway units
vikings rape void rays
1-2 rax marine support with the vikings is enough to shut down phoenix lifter play. If you scout phoenixes build a turret by your tanks
Another really good strategy while meching is just to use your buildings SUPER EFFECTIVELY. Walling off the protosses attack lanes is pretty sweet when you have tanks.
The trick to mech is just countering the protosses army composition, and then rolling out like a bad ass to kill his main base.
So yea, you CAN slow push accross the map as long as you've been expanding a lot, because does it matter if you win now when you can win 20 minutes from now with a 200-200 3-3 army?
I'd like to see a few of your replays please.
I play mech to and in theory what you say is correct, in practice it does not really work that way.
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Im also very impressed by this MMM + Tank/Viking or Single Raven on top of this..
What I like about this army composition is that you can actually make fights happen where and when you want. With MMM + Vikings you just need to kite, kite, back off, etc.. And once Protoss teches to HTs, you are gonna spend the rest of the game dodging storms until you fail and then its over.
As LiquidTyler said, Naama did well at Dreamhack. Mana wasnt probably playing the best against this style of play, but recently Sjow, Strelok and others are experimenting with this Tank mixing and are doing really good.
I think its more map dependant or situational, but it can be really effective. Tanks got nerfed really hard, yes, but if you can protect your 3-4 Tanks with bio ball and have a contain, you will be in a great shape..
And on top of that I like that I use my Factory. Not only leaving it for scout purposes, which is like saying to protoss to go Collosi/HT (Well, what other is an option, but still..).
edit: Even Jinro said Tanks are good in TvP late game and he was about to use them game 5.
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I'm very much in favour of blue flame helion for TvP (and TvT), particularly 1-1-1 opening, drop 3 in base, poke 1 up the ramp as soon as he reacts. Even when I drop badly its normally possible to kill 5-7 workers and recover the helion's and the medivac, they are a great addition to your fighting army, provide high damage cover that your SCV's can repair in the event of cheese, and the buildings offer you nice easy transitions
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On December 08 2010 03:49 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 03:23 QQmonster wrote:
I always do a 'macro mech' style vs protoss, harrassing with preignitor hellions all game long. The key to winning with mech is CONSTANT scouting. If he is going for mass speed zealot/ immortal, then you make thors preemptively and research the strike cannon upgrade to 1shot his immortals while your hellions obliterate zealots.
If he goes stargate, a reactored starport shuts it down pretty easily. What's he going to do, fly into your army and shoot your vikings, or is he going to lift up your tanks? If he lifts up your tanks your gaggle of marines from your 1 or 2 barracks' will shoot them down with the vikings + any turrets you may have, as well as thors. If he has void rays, vikings can just out micro them hard.
The key to beating stargate play is just throwing down a starport as soon as you scout it, and swapping it onto one of your factories reactors. I usually take a starport over an additional factory somewhere around the time I take my third base, just to be safe if I didn't scout a stargate, so I don't get caught with my pants down. From there on out it's just dropping the hammer time on the protoss. Protoss army isnt mobile enough to keep up with hellion harrass, and if he invests in 2-3 cannons at each expo then your army is even stronger than his will be.
If he gets carriers, teching to battle cruisers with yamato cannon is HILARIOUS.
Thors 1shot immortals
BC's 1shot carriers
Tank/hellion rapes gateway units
vikings rape void rays
1-2 rax marine support with the vikings is enough to shut down phoenix lifter play. If you scout phoenixes build a turret by your tanks
Another really good strategy while meching is just to use your buildings SUPER EFFECTIVELY. Walling off the protosses attack lanes is pretty sweet when you have tanks.
The trick to mech is just countering the protosses army composition, and then rolling out like a bad ass to kill his main base.
So yea, you CAN slow push accross the map as long as you've been expanding a lot, because does it matter if you win now when you can win 20 minutes from now with a 200-200 3-3 army? I'd like to see a few of your replays please. I play mech to and in theory what you say is correct, in practice it does not really work that way.
Download some Goody replays, or Predy from esl.. They experiment with mech a lot.
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Mech is alright, contrary to popular belief, once you get a critical mass of tanks (supported with Blue hellions and marines) nothing on the ground from- not even immortals- can attack it. The real problem is lack of anti-air. So a gateway army with Immortal/Phenoix support into Voids/Carriers (Carriers, WAY better) late game is pretty deadly against a meching T.
I've been practicing with some 2800~ toss players (allej, Time, etc.) and Its not impossible for Mech against Toss, but it goddamn hard if they respond properly by taking a fast third and using stargate units.
So it really comes down to when to get starports/marines with upgrades to fight the stargate tech. I'm thinking (very general, haven't practiced this yet) getting 3 facts (1 reactor, 2 techlab) and 2 rax (1 techlab (just for upgrades, the amount of anti-ground you're getting makes marauders irrelevant, 1 reactor) and a reactored starport off two base may be the way to push out, take your third behind the push and then throw down more rax and get ghosts as well as another starport.
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On December 08 2010 00:16 Jombozeus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 00:10 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Tanks are viable in TvP, you just need to figure out a way to keep protoss units off your units. Naama did this by making bunkers and doing ultra turtle slow push/contains with large layers of tanks and buildings in front of your tanks.
Use MMM to take up position outside of the Protoss natural and then throw down a hard contain with buildings and stuff while expanding with a raven or two for PDD. Problem is.. what do you do if you can't contain toss like that?
Can you slow push across the map? My idea of how it may play out is that MC will scout with a stalker, but it will be denied, as the timing isn't right. The first confrontation with the tank will be MC's first push, which will probably consist of gateway units, and he will be shelled by 1 shot of tank and move back. From this point the Terran will be at an advantage because the Protoss had unnecessarily made too many units that are unable to bust the Terran. The protoss will not proceed to either stargate tech, robo tech, or expand. There will be a timing from a mid-late game for the protoss, that may overrun the terran by outteching or outexpanding. A successful slowpush to expand is needed to catch up before the 200/200 deathball. It is worse off economically than a simple MMM push into expand, but it allows for more options as you are turtled and scouting is much harder for the Protoss. This is very self-explanatory. But what I am saying is what are the advantages and/or disadvantages or the differences caused by the Korean PvT metagame? Will the tank push be more viable due to the way MC plays P?
Eh, I thought this was a general tanks in TvP discussion not how Jinro will beat MC with tanks. :-\ Tanks are viable, whether or not a optimal way to play is another question entirely. Port builds and Thor play look stronger right now than tank play so it's more likely that we'll see some of that instead.
Hopefully Jinro will be able to figure out something that revolutionizes TvP but if he wins it'll probably be due to executing existing strategies harder and better than some magic tank play. Maybe we'll see Banshee/Ghost or something because that would be amazing if someone could execute it.
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On December 08 2010 00:37 Jibba wrote:It's an interesting idea, but I'm not knowledge enough on T to comment. Hopefully a good T can stop by. + Show Spoiler +One thing I was wondering was why Jinro didn't include any tanks into his army in g5. The production tab showed him researching siege and building a tank, but I never saw it on the map. Since he had the base advantage (as well as in g4), it seemed like 1-2 siege tanks would completely nullify the colossus advantage and force choya to engage whereever Jinro wanted him to.
+ Show Spoiler +I think Jinro researches siege as a pre-emptive to templar tech. In every game I've seen Jinro play at the MLG and GSL against Protoss, I only saw him start laying down a punch of tanks against Templar play. Against mass Colossi, he seems to spend his gas mostly on air (lots of vikings), and ghosts once he takes his third or maybe a bit before. Ghosts are good period, but tanks are only very effective if they can get more than a few shots off before dying which can be something of a gamble. Colossi are pretty fast and templar are slow, so this is likely a factor in his decision making as well. It's easy to setup tanks pre-emptively for incoming templar, colossi can just run down some othre path, would be a nightmate to keep trying to re-siege tanks in the proper spot against a colossi heavy army.
This is all just my humble opinion, hopefully it has some level of truth to it...
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On December 08 2010 03:54 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 03:49 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 08 2010 03:23 QQmonster wrote:
I always do a 'macro mech' style vs protoss, harrassing with preignitor hellions all game long. The key to winning with mech is CONSTANT scouting. If he is going for mass speed zealot/ immortal, then you make thors preemptively and research the strike cannon upgrade to 1shot his immortals while your hellions obliterate zealots.
If he goes stargate, a reactored starport shuts it down pretty easily. What's he going to do, fly into your army and shoot your vikings, or is he going to lift up your tanks? If he lifts up your tanks your gaggle of marines from your 1 or 2 barracks' will shoot them down with the vikings + any turrets you may have, as well as thors. If he has void rays, vikings can just out micro them hard.
The key to beating stargate play is just throwing down a starport as soon as you scout it, and swapping it onto one of your factories reactors. I usually take a starport over an additional factory somewhere around the time I take my third base, just to be safe if I didn't scout a stargate, so I don't get caught with my pants down. From there on out it's just dropping the hammer time on the protoss. Protoss army isnt mobile enough to keep up with hellion harrass, and if he invests in 2-3 cannons at each expo then your army is even stronger than his will be.
If he gets carriers, teching to battle cruisers with yamato cannon is HILARIOUS.
Thors 1shot immortals
BC's 1shot carriers
Tank/hellion rapes gateway units
vikings rape void rays
1-2 rax marine support with the vikings is enough to shut down phoenix lifter play. If you scout phoenixes build a turret by your tanks
Another really good strategy while meching is just to use your buildings SUPER EFFECTIVELY. Walling off the protosses attack lanes is pretty sweet when you have tanks.
The trick to mech is just countering the protosses army composition, and then rolling out like a bad ass to kill his main base.
So yea, you CAN slow push accross the map as long as you've been expanding a lot, because does it matter if you win now when you can win 20 minutes from now with a 200-200 3-3 army? I'd like to see a few of your replays please. I play mech to and in theory what you say is correct, in practice it does not really work that way. Download some Goody replays, or Predy from esl.. They experiment with mech a lot.
I did. I want to see as many games of mech TvP as possible and that guy (QQmonster) seems to know a lot about it so i want to see some of his games, unless he is just theorycrafting without any sort of experience on the subject.
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On December 08 2010 04:07 captainwaffles wrote:
Mech is alright, contrary to popular belief, once you get a critical mass of tanks (supported with Blue hellions and marines) nothing on the ground from- not even immortals- can attack it. The real problem is lack of anti-air. So a gateway army with Immortal/Phenoix support into Voids/Carriers (Carriers, WAY better) late game is pretty deadly against a meching T.
I've been practicing with some 2800~ toss players (allej, Time, etc.) and Its not impossible for Mech against Toss, but it goddamn hard if they respond properly by taking a fast third and using stargate units.
So it really comes down to when to get starports/marines with upgrades to fight the stargate tech. I'm thinking (very general, haven't practiced this yet) getting 3 facts (1 reactor, 2 techlab) and 2 rax (1 techlab (just for upgrades, the amount of anti-ground you're getting makes marauders irrelevant, 1 reactor) and a reactored starport off two base may be the way to push out, take your third behind the push and then throw down more rax and get ghosts as well as another starport.
thats how i played vs socke and other top tosses in the IEM and I practised it vs hasu, thing is you wont be able to compete with carrier/storm its just not effective enough. Problem with mech is that you get in the lategame 9/10 times against protoss and protoss lategame is simply unbeateble. There is no counter to air/templar its that simple, warpin mechanics only make it worse its like a mini recall and you cant push everywere because of it.
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On December 08 2010 04:38 4Servy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 04:07 captainwaffles wrote:
Mech is alright, contrary to popular belief, once you get a critical mass of tanks (supported with Blue hellions and marines) nothing on the ground from- not even immortals- can attack it. The real problem is lack of anti-air. So a gateway army with Immortal/Phenoix support into Voids/Carriers (Carriers, WAY better) late game is pretty deadly against a meching T.
I've been practicing with some 2800~ toss players (allej, Time, etc.) and Its not impossible for Mech against Toss, but it goddamn hard if they respond properly by taking a fast third and using stargate units.
So it really comes down to when to get starports/marines with upgrades to fight the stargate tech. I'm thinking (very general, haven't practiced this yet) getting 3 facts (1 reactor, 2 techlab) and 2 rax (1 techlab (just for upgrades, the amount of anti-ground you're getting makes marauders irrelevant, 1 reactor) and a reactored starport off two base may be the way to push out, take your third behind the push and then throw down more rax and get ghosts as well as another starport.
thats how i played vs socke and other top tosses in the IEM and I practised it vs hasu, thing is you wont be able to compete with carrier/storm its just not effective enough. Problem with mech is that you get in the lategame 9/10 times against protoss and protoss lategame is simply unbeateble. There is no counter to air/templar its that simple, warpin mechanics only make it worse its like a mini recall and you cant push everywere because of it.
Yeah, I've noticed that, in one game where I was prepared with Vikings, A few HT's softened them up enough with storm and the carriers (less than 5 IIRC) destroyed them. Thats why I'm thinking ghosts when the game is approaching later stages (after you take your third). But IDK, Toss air is just really damn good.
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On December 08 2010 04:38 4Servy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 04:07 captainwaffles wrote:
Mech is alright, contrary to popular belief, once you get a critical mass of tanks (supported with Blue hellions and marines) nothing on the ground from- not even immortals- can attack it. The real problem is lack of anti-air. So a gateway army with Immortal/Phenoix support into Voids/Carriers (Carriers, WAY better) late game is pretty deadly against a meching T.
I've been practicing with some 2800~ toss players (allej, Time, etc.) and Its not impossible for Mech against Toss, but it goddamn hard if they respond properly by taking a fast third and using stargate units.
So it really comes down to when to get starports/marines with upgrades to fight the stargate tech. I'm thinking (very general, haven't practiced this yet) getting 3 facts (1 reactor, 2 techlab) and 2 rax (1 techlab (just for upgrades, the amount of anti-ground you're getting makes marauders irrelevant, 1 reactor) and a reactored starport off two base may be the way to push out, take your third behind the push and then throw down more rax and get ghosts as well as another starport.
thats how i played vs socke and other top tosses in the IEM and I practised it vs hasu, thing is you wont be able to compete with carrier/storm its just not effective enough. Problem with mech is that you get in the lategame 9/10 times against protoss and protoss lategame is simply unbeateble. There is no counter to air/templar its that simple, warpin mechanics only make it worse its like a mini recall and you cant push everywere because of it.
Just a stupid question, what happens if you go BC for Anti-Air(PewPew interceptors, Yamato Carriers) instead of vikings? You have to keep up in air-upgrades for that to work is the immediate thought.
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Let me get this straight. You are suggesting Jinro to go Mech when everyone who's ever tried going mech have been roflstomped?
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A single zealot can take so many siege bullets' in the chest and not die it's not even laughable ....
we have slim hope of jinro winning but we have a hope, with siege tanks i think it would go to zero =(
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It might be okay as a late-game transition. Though, I recall NaDa transitioning into tank-play lategame against Tester and getting stomped despite having a huge macro lead and dynamite tank positioning.
I don't know. If it'd work, I think you'd need +2 attack on the tanks in order to 2-shot the templar.
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On December 08 2010 06:00 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 04:38 4Servy wrote:On December 08 2010 04:07 captainwaffles wrote:
Mech is alright, contrary to popular belief, once you get a critical mass of tanks (supported with Blue hellions and marines) nothing on the ground from- not even immortals- can attack it. The real problem is lack of anti-air. So a gateway army with Immortal/Phenoix support into Voids/Carriers (Carriers, WAY better) late game is pretty deadly against a meching T.
I've been practicing with some 2800~ toss players (allej, Time, etc.) and Its not impossible for Mech against Toss, but it goddamn hard if they respond properly by taking a fast third and using stargate units.
So it really comes down to when to get starports/marines with upgrades to fight the stargate tech. I'm thinking (very general, haven't practiced this yet) getting 3 facts (1 reactor, 2 techlab) and 2 rax (1 techlab (just for upgrades, the amount of anti-ground you're getting makes marauders irrelevant, 1 reactor) and a reactored starport off two base may be the way to push out, take your third behind the push and then throw down more rax and get ghosts as well as another starport.
thats how i played vs socke and other top tosses in the IEM and I practised it vs hasu, thing is you wont be able to compete with carrier/storm its just not effective enough. Problem with mech is that you get in the lategame 9/10 times against protoss and protoss lategame is simply unbeateble. There is no counter to air/templar its that simple, warpin mechanics only make it worse its like a mini recall and you cant push everywere because of it. Just a stupid question, what happens if you go BC for Anti-Air(PewPew interceptors, Yamato Carriers) instead of vikings? You have to keep up in air-upgrades for that to work is the immediate thought.
HT-Carrier is sort of a counter to BC Feedback the BC and kite with the Carrier.
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You can always EMP your BCs and carriers only do 16 damage per 8 interceptor pass where the interceptors are getting pewpewed to death
Even with only 350 HP that's going to take a while.
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Would a few blue flames behind marines be worth it to kill zealots faster? What about 1-2 thors to break forcefiends? Thors can break forcefields but I've actually never seen it be used.
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I think the only bo that still has some chance is the raven + 2 banshees when P fe, the problem is when he doesnt =X
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New patch - Siege tanks deal +15 vs massive!
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On December 08 2010 04:07 captainwaffles wrote:
Mech is alright, contrary to popular belief, once you get a critical mass of tanks (supported with Blue hellions and marines) nothing on the ground from- not even immortals- can attack it. The real problem is lack of anti-air. So a gateway army with Immortal/Phenoix support into Voids/Carriers (Carriers, WAY better) late game is pretty deadly against a meching T.
I've been practicing with some 2800~ toss players (allej, Time, etc.) and Its not impossible for Mech against Toss, but it goddamn hard if they respond properly by taking a fast third and using stargate units.
So it really comes down to when to get starports/marines with upgrades to fight the stargate tech. I'm thinking (very general, haven't practiced this yet) getting 3 facts (1 reactor, 2 techlab) and 2 rax (1 techlab (just for upgrades, the amount of anti-ground you're getting makes marauders irrelevant, 1 reactor) and a reactored starport off two base may be the way to push out, take your third behind the push and then throw down more rax and get ghosts as well as another starport.
Weird. I've been slaughtered in 200vs200 battles. Me: 2 thors, mass tanks and some hellions + a raven. He: collossus, immortal, HT, stalker, zealot. He lost 50 supply.
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On December 08 2010 07:17 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 04:07 captainwaffles wrote:
Mech is alright, contrary to popular belief, once you get a critical mass of tanks (supported with Blue hellions and marines) nothing on the ground from- not even immortals- can attack it. The real problem is lack of anti-air. So a gateway army with Immortal/Phenoix support into Voids/Carriers (Carriers, WAY better) late game is pretty deadly against a meching T.
I've been practicing with some 2800~ toss players (allej, Time, etc.) and Its not impossible for Mech against Toss, but it goddamn hard if they respond properly by taking a fast third and using stargate units.
So it really comes down to when to get starports/marines with upgrades to fight the stargate tech. I'm thinking (very general, haven't practiced this yet) getting 3 facts (1 reactor, 2 techlab) and 2 rax (1 techlab (just for upgrades, the amount of anti-ground you're getting makes marauders irrelevant, 1 reactor) and a reactored starport off two base may be the way to push out, take your third behind the push and then throw down more rax and get ghosts as well as another starport.
Weird. I've been slaughtered in 200vs200 battles. Me: 2 thors, mass tanks and some hellions + a raven. He: collossus, immortal, HT, stalker, zealot. He lost 50 supply.
Its all about positioning, Tanks are wastes of space if they can't get at least 3/4 shots off before dying :-\
On December 08 2010 07:12 FabledIntegral wrote:
New patch - Siege tanks deal +15 vs massive!
I'm going to quote this when it comes true.
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Australia8532 Posts
On December 08 2010 07:34 Synystyr wrote:All Jinro really needs is some 4 Port Banshee action :D http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172190I'm sure it's something Koreans haven't quite seen yet, and since Jinro is an avid TL browser and advocater...maybe he can use that to his advantage? Wink wink xD
Shameless plug of BO haha. But i agree - something different would help him a long way; MC probably knows him inside and out..
I think tanks are to much of a risky investment vP due to immobility and the resilience of zealots/immortals; this isn't to say mech in general is a no-no and even some tanks in the back to provide some extra DPS isn't a bad idea - but they cost a shitload of gas. I would be worried if he went tank heavy
EDIT: if he could pull some crazy Thor/banshee/viking build that pain.user beat Nony with at MLG it would be pretty damn sweet
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On December 08 2010 07:40 bkrow wrote:Shameless plug of BO haha. But i agree - something different would help him a long way; MC probably knows him inside and out.. I think tanks are to much of a risky investment vP due to immobility and the resilience of zealots/immortals; this isn't to say mech in general is a no-no and even some tanks in the back to provide some extra DPS isn't a bad idea - but they cost a shitload of gas. I would be worried if he went tank heavy EDIT: if he could pull some crazy Thor/banshee/viking build that pain.user beat Nony with at MLG it would be pretty damn sweet
Extremely shameless  Nothing would give me a bigger hard-on than seeing Jinro use my build successfully He'd execute it better anyways with superior harass and macro Pleeeeease? :D
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Using tanks in TvP is really hard. They are so immoblie compare to colossus and if you are caught sieging then it's pretty much game. MarineKing did not research cloak for his ghosts and they keep getting picked off. Plus he had no raven to snipe observer. Jinro did a good job keeping raven with him so I hope he research cloak for ghost then go in and EMP HT after observer are taken out by vikings+raven. This is all going to be about micro and the ratio of each army.
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After reading some feedback, my new idea is that a tank play will force an aggressive protoss to get out of his comfort zone.
It may cause an overcommitment towards stargate play, which will cut down on collosus and/or HT teching. If the T can hold until mid/late game before the collo/HT tech comes, there may be a timing.
This may be hard, however, due to phoenix and void rays play locking Terran from expanding to get the necessary income.
What is the viability of:
Opening tank to force stargate play, then preemptively transitioning to 3x reactor rax? If the protoss went immortal -> collosus instead, mass marines will hold off immortals while a swapon 2x reactor viking will deal with the collosus?
The idea is that it may favor P, but it forces an aggressive gateway toss to play out of his comfort zone.
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Mech is bad against Protoss. You have no answer to air and P mobility.
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If going mech what about thors instead of tanks? Add like 3 or 4 thors into your MMM ball and CC some colossus , brake forcefields, and tank dmg.
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On December 08 2010 11:28 Srule wrote:
If going mech what about thors instead of tanks? Add like 3 or 4 thors into your MMM ball and CC some colossus , brake forcefields, and tank dmg.
You forget the part where everything dies to Carriers and Storm.
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If Jinro wants to beat MC, he needs to utilize drops and cloak banshees + Ravens more than he has been. If you are dancing armies with a protoss (for example, you are each on either side of the center of the map on Xel'Naga Caverns) and you throw a cloaked banshee in his mineral line or drop his main. Protoss warps in units LIKELY near his army. This will cause the Protoss to make a choice: 1. Push now and try to own him to negate my base getting fucked. 2. Pull back and defend my base and allow the Terran to set up in any position he wants to fight in later or possibly expand.
Jinro needs to utilize the mobility and harass potential of the Terran force a BIT more to be able to consistently take games off MC. In a lot of these PvT games, the Protoss is the one who controls the pace of the game and when the battles are fought. I don't feel like this SHOULD be the case. I feel like the Siege-Tank positioning near expos and constant banshee/drop harass would be more effective vs MC in longer games.
Who knows what we will see, though. Maybe MC will opt for fairly early rushes, Warpgate timing attacks or fast Stargate + high ground warp ins and not let Jinro establish control. I love watching Jinro win but MC is very solid and Jinro said himself he CURRENTLY is not confidant beating him. Maybe he will practice something new or cheese him, hehe. I am looking forward to this series, no doubt.
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definitly Terran need to use their harass potencial
Blue Flame Hellions are really nasty...
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harassing with hellions is difficult, any strategy relying on your opponent to have slow reaction times is just... not solid as artosis says.
really terran needs to be able to fight and crush protoss in build order win, but that's not possible atm due to imba. there's a massive 10 % win advantage protoss have right now over terran.
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On December 08 2010 18:56 tournamentnow wrote:
harassing with hellions is difficult, any strategy relying on your opponent to have slow reaction times is just... not solid as artosis says.
really terran needs to be able to fight and crush protoss in build order win, but that's not possible atm due to imba. there's a massive 10 % win advantage protoss have right now over terran.
Really, you're gonna go there?
However it is possible to induce slow reaction times by multipronged dropping. Dropping requires much less micro than the defender, the tradeoff is the possibility you lose the medivac. We have seen STC pretty much destroy every, well, everything, with mass drops. Probably unrealistic in 2 days for Jinro, but I think it may be where TvP may be heading. Mech is for a better turtling so you can drop without just being counterattacked and ran over regardless of drops. Or, you can just be like STC and go pure MMM and beat every race with superior-everythingness.
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[QUOTE]On December 08 2010 19:45 Jombozeus wrote:
[QUOTE]On December 08 2010 18:56 tournamentnow wrote:
Mech is for a better turtling so you can drop without just being counterattacked and ran over regardless of drops. Or, you can just be like STC and go pure MMM and beat every race with superior-everythingness.[/QUOTE]
True but reaaaally hard to achieve in say few days. Terran can't win vs Maxed out Toss army with proper combo-> need to harras pretty much like zergs have to do vs terran. Multi-pronged attack requires A LOT of APM and awareness, something Jinro have shown to be lacking in his games. All his drops denied or just badly timed/executed).
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On December 08 2010 07:12 FabledIntegral wrote:
New patch - Siege tanks deal +15 vs massive!
Still won't be good enough for how immobile they are.
If anything that's just going to make ultras worse TvZ and nothing else.
Viking/Banshee still the premier choice vs Colo.
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The real problem of the Jinro TvP build (wich is standard TvP build) is that when too many zealots are on the field, they force kiting, then stalker can kill vikings, then game over.
I wonder if adding bfhelions could be good for that, and use ghost to emp the zealots, they are the biggest threat imo.
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On December 09 2010 01:26 MrCon wrote:
The real problem of the Jinro TvP build (wich is standard TvP build) is that when too many zealots are on the field, they force kiting, then stalker can kill vikings, then game over.
I wonder if adding bfhelions could be good for that, and use ghost to emp the zealots, they are the biggest threat imo.
This isn't a late game concern but I'll say this: in my TvP I use blue-flame hellions quite a bit (I'm kind of not great, 2000 diamond level whatever that means).
However, I use them in a very specific circumstance and it pretty much always works... Namely when I scout a Protoss going templar off 2 base. I add in blue flame hellions to my MnMnM, and it consistently crushes them.
It's like, off 2 base they don't really have enough gas to make as many stalkers as they need to hold off the hellions AND enough templars to storm my infantry. Blue flame hellions are also great at sniping templar and good at dodging storms...
I can see them being used in the late game for sure. At the very least their presence would force photon cannons at every mining expansion because trying to react to the hellions with just units is probably a bad idea, you space out for half a second and lose a million probes.
And yeah, they do great splash damage to chargelots.
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Yeah, I used bfhelion in the exact same scenario. But after seeing the Jinro vs Choya serie, I can't stop wondering what you have happened if jinro had replaced some marines with helions. They can snipe HT, but they can snipe chargelot too, because chargelot will "charge in sight" so you can send deathsquads of 6 helions toward the protoss ball and before the player can realise, a lot of his chargelot will run toward the helions, helions can have some free shots before being attacked by the rest of the ball. And 4-6 bfhelions will kill a LOT of chargelot very fast.
But even in a big scale battle, helions could weakens chargelot a lot and allow a lot less kiting, so less stim. With a big bio ball with a lot of marauders, medivacs energy is depleted very quickly, and stiming cost is very high. Having to stim twice instead of 3 times can turn the tide imo.
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Looks like the OP was secretly brilliant. Sorry for ever doubting you =D.
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Since this is now more relevant due to a recent switch in playstyles, I reckon its necessary to bump this up.
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Mixing tanks into your TvP army is a decent addition.
Problem with mech is that you need to have it work when you move out. Because if it fails and both your armies are reset, you will be behind in the later stages of the game. Terran needs to have a critical mass of certain units before it's truly effective and replacing a mech army takes years and years just to defeat the gateway units of protoss.
Granted if everything goes to plan, you have a good chance of wiping out an entire protoss army without losing more than a few units but if not then you've pretty much lost the game right there.
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I may edit this OP later, most of what I said don't make sense in context of today's PvT.
Nonetheless, the irrelevance created in 3 months is interesting.
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Mech works if you can kill the Protoss before the L8 game. L8 game supply for supply the Protoss army is simply more efficient. This i feel is mostly attributed to the fact that tanks are 3 food.
Furthermore the collosi is probably the biggest bane. Simple Collosi Blink Charge will decimate Mech.
Collosi with their massive range/ Splash force you to move the Hellions and then chargelots rape the Mech. Blink Stalkers prevent Vikings from owning the Collosi.
+ Show Spoiler +H8 Collosi. Never though i'd see the day that i would actually miss the Reaver
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EPT
