EPTI do like Tank play, I also like Thor play. In the next patch Thor rushing will be obsolete so that build is pretty much off the table for me. After watching Sjow's stream I'm really starting to dig Marine+Tank+Banshee and just outexpanding and out macroing the Protoss. I'm interested in the future to try some Pre-Igniter Hellion + Tank to see how that works out
[D] *SPOILERS* GSL Discussion of Tank Play - Page 2
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
Tenks
United States3104 Posts
I do like Tank play, I also like Thor play. In the next patch Thor rushing will be obsolete so that build is pretty much off the table for me. After watching Sjow's stream I'm really starting to dig Marine+Tank+Banshee and just outexpanding and out macroing the Protoss. I'm interested in the future to try some Pre-Igniter Hellion + Tank to see how that works out | ||
|
QQmonster
Canada240 Posts
If he goes stargate, a reactored starport shuts it down pretty easily. What's he going to do, fly into your army and shoot your vikings, or is he going to lift up your tanks? If he lifts up your tanks your gaggle of marines from your 1 or 2 barracks' will shoot them down with the vikings + any turrets you may have, as well as thors. If he has void rays, vikings can just out micro them hard. The key to beating stargate play is just throwing down a starport as soon as you scout it, and swapping it onto one of your factories reactors. I usually take a starport over an additional factory somewhere around the time I take my third base, just to be safe if I didn't scout a stargate, so I don't get caught with my pants down. From there on out it's just dropping the hammer time on the protoss. Protoss army isnt mobile enough to keep up with hellion harrass, and if he invests in 2-3 cannons at each expo then your army is even stronger than his will be. If he gets carriers, teching to battle cruisers with yamato cannon is HILARIOUS. Thors 1shot immortals BC's 1shot carriers Tank/hellion rapes gateway units vikings rape void rays 1-2 rax marine support with the vikings is enough to shut down phoenix lifter play. If you scout phoenixes build a turret by your tanks Another really good strategy while meching is just to use your buildings SUPER EFFECTIVELY. Walling off the protosses attack lanes is pretty sweet when you have tanks. The trick to mech is just countering the protosses army composition, and then rolling out like a bad ass to kill his main base. So yea, you CAN slow push accross the map as long as you've been expanding a lot, because does it matter if you win now when you can win 20 minutes from now with a 200-200 3-3 army? | ||
|
Rammstorm
Germany1434 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
|
Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On December 08 2010 03:23 QQmonster wrote: I always do a 'macro mech' style vs protoss, harrassing with preignitor hellions all game long. The key to winning with mech is CONSTANT scouting. If he is going for mass speed zealot/ immortal, then you make thors preemptively and research the strike cannon upgrade to 1shot his immortals while your hellions obliterate zealots. If he goes stargate, a reactored starport shuts it down pretty easily. What's he going to do, fly into your army and shoot your vikings, or is he going to lift up your tanks? If he lifts up your tanks your gaggle of marines from your 1 or 2 barracks' will shoot them down with the vikings + any turrets you may have, as well as thors. If he has void rays, vikings can just out micro them hard. The key to beating stargate play is just throwing down a starport as soon as you scout it, and swapping it onto one of your factories reactors. I usually take a starport over an additional factory somewhere around the time I take my third base, just to be safe if I didn't scout a stargate, so I don't get caught with my pants down. From there on out it's just dropping the hammer time on the protoss. Protoss army isnt mobile enough to keep up with hellion harrass, and if he invests in 2-3 cannons at each expo then your army is even stronger than his will be. If he gets carriers, teching to battle cruisers with yamato cannon is HILARIOUS. Thors 1shot immortals BC's 1shot carriers Tank/hellion rapes gateway units vikings rape void rays 1-2 rax marine support with the vikings is enough to shut down phoenix lifter play. If you scout phoenixes build a turret by your tanks Another really good strategy while meching is just to use your buildings SUPER EFFECTIVELY. Walling off the protosses attack lanes is pretty sweet when you have tanks. The trick to mech is just countering the protosses army composition, and then rolling out like a bad ass to kill his main base. So yea, you CAN slow push accross the map as long as you've been expanding a lot, because does it matter if you win now when you can win 20 minutes from now with a 200-200 3-3 army? I'd like to see a few of your replays please. I play mech to and in theory what you say is correct, in practice it does not really work that way. | ||
|
Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
What I like about this army composition is that you can actually make fights happen where and when you want. With MMM + Vikings you just need to kite, kite, back off, etc.. And once Protoss teches to HTs, you are gonna spend the rest of the game dodging storms until you fail and then its over. As LiquidTyler said, Naama did well at Dreamhack. Mana wasnt probably playing the best against this style of play, but recently Sjow, Strelok and others are experimenting with this Tank mixing and are doing really good. I think its more map dependant or situational, but it can be really effective. Tanks got nerfed really hard, yes, but if you can protect your 3-4 Tanks with bio ball and have a contain, you will be in a great shape.. And on top of that I like that I use my Factory. Not only leaving it for scout purposes, which is like saying to protoss to go Collosi/HT (Well, what other is an option, but still..). edit: Even Jinro said Tanks are good in TvP late game and he was about to use them game 5. | ||
|
hagon
United Kingdom556 Posts
| ||
|
Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 08 2010 03:49 Sapphire.lux wrote: I'd like to see a few of your replays please. I play mech to and in theory what you say is correct, in practice it does not really work that way. Download some Goody replays, or Predy from esl.. They experiment with mech a lot. | ||
|
captainwaffles
United States1050 Posts
I've been practicing with some 2800~ toss players (allej, Time, etc.) and Its not impossible for Mech against Toss, but it goddamn hard if they respond properly by taking a fast third and using stargate units. So it really comes down to when to get starports/marines with upgrades to fight the stargate tech. I'm thinking (very general, haven't practiced this yet) getting 3 facts (1 reactor, 2 techlab) and 2 rax (1 techlab (just for upgrades, the amount of anti-ground you're getting makes marauders irrelevant, 1 reactor) and a reactored starport off two base may be the way to push out, take your third behind the push and then throw down more rax and get ghosts as well as another starport. | ||
|
Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
On December 08 2010 00:16 Jombozeus wrote: My idea of how it may play out is that MC will scout with a stalker, but it will be denied, as the timing isn't right. The first confrontation with the tank will be MC's first push, which will probably consist of gateway units, and he will be shelled by 1 shot of tank and move back. From this point the Terran will be at an advantage because the Protoss had unnecessarily made too many units that are unable to bust the Terran. The protoss will not proceed to either stargate tech, robo tech, or expand. There will be a timing from a mid-late game for the protoss, that may overrun the terran by outteching or outexpanding. A successful slowpush to expand is needed to catch up before the 200/200 deathball. It is worse off economically than a simple MMM push into expand, but it allows for more options as you are turtled and scouting is much harder for the Protoss. This is very self-explanatory. But what I am saying is what are the advantages and/or disadvantages or the differences caused by the Korean PvT metagame? Will the tank push be more viable due to the way MC plays P? Eh, I thought this was a general tanks in TvP discussion not how Jinro will beat MC with tanks. :-\ Tanks are viable, whether or not a optimal way to play is another question entirely. Port builds and Thor play look stronger right now than tank play so it's more likely that we'll see some of that instead. Hopefully Jinro will be able to figure out something that revolutionizes TvP but if he wins it'll probably be due to executing existing strategies harder and better than some magic tank play. Maybe we'll see Banshee/Ghost or something because that would be amazing if someone could execute it. | ||
|
ltortoise
633 Posts
On December 08 2010 00:37 Jibba wrote: It's an interesting idea, but I'm not knowledge enough on T to comment. Hopefully a good T can stop by. + Show Spoiler + One thing I was wondering was why Jinro didn't include any tanks into his army in g5. The production tab showed him researching siege and building a tank, but I never saw it on the map. Since he had the base advantage (as well as in g4), it seemed like 1-2 siege tanks would completely nullify the colossus advantage and force choya to engage whereever Jinro wanted him to. + Show Spoiler + I think Jinro researches siege as a pre-emptive to templar tech. In every game I've seen Jinro play at the MLG and GSL against Protoss, I only saw him start laying down a punch of tanks against Templar play. Against mass Colossi, he seems to spend his gas mostly on air (lots of vikings), and ghosts once he takes his third or maybe a bit before. Ghosts are good period, but tanks are only very effective if they can get more than a few shots off before dying which can be something of a gamble. Colossi are pretty fast and templar are slow, so this is likely a factor in his decision making as well. It's easy to setup tanks pre-emptively for incoming templar, colossi can just run down some othre path, would be a nightmate to keep trying to re-siege tanks in the proper spot against a colossi heavy army. This is all just my humble opinion, hopefully it has some level of truth to it... | ||
|
Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On December 08 2010 03:54 Everlong wrote: Download some Goody replays, or Predy from esl.. They experiment with mech a lot. I did. I want to see as many games of mech TvP as possible and that guy (QQmonster) seems to know a lot about it so i want to see some of his games, unless he is just theorycrafting without any sort of experience on the subject. | ||
|
4Servy
Netherlands1542 Posts
On December 08 2010 04:07 captainwaffles wrote: Mech is alright, contrary to popular belief, once you get a critical mass of tanks (supported with Blue hellions and marines) nothing on the ground from- not even immortals- can attack it. The real problem is lack of anti-air. So a gateway army with Immortal/Phenoix support into Voids/Carriers (Carriers, WAY better) late game is pretty deadly against a meching T. I've been practicing with some 2800~ toss players (allej, Time, etc.) and Its not impossible for Mech against Toss, but it goddamn hard if they respond properly by taking a fast third and using stargate units. So it really comes down to when to get starports/marines with upgrades to fight the stargate tech. I'm thinking (very general, haven't practiced this yet) getting 3 facts (1 reactor, 2 techlab) and 2 rax (1 techlab (just for upgrades, the amount of anti-ground you're getting makes marauders irrelevant, 1 reactor) and a reactored starport off two base may be the way to push out, take your third behind the push and then throw down more rax and get ghosts as well as another starport. thats how i played vs socke and other top tosses in the IEM and I practised it vs hasu, thing is you wont be able to compete with carrier/storm its just not effective enough. Problem with mech is that you get in the lategame 9/10 times against protoss and protoss lategame is simply unbeateble. There is no counter to air/templar its that simple, warpin mechanics only make it worse its like a mini recall and you cant push everywere because of it. | ||
|
4Servy
Netherlands1542 Posts
| ||
|
captainwaffles
United States1050 Posts
On December 08 2010 04:38 4Servy wrote: thats how i played vs socke and other top tosses in the IEM and I practised it vs hasu, thing is you wont be able to compete with carrier/storm its just not effective enough. Problem with mech is that you get in the lategame 9/10 times against protoss and protoss lategame is simply unbeateble. There is no counter to air/templar its that simple, warpin mechanics only make it worse its like a mini recall and you cant push everywere because of it. Yeah, I've noticed that, in one game where I was prepared with Vikings, A few HT's softened them up enough with storm and the carriers (less than 5 IIRC) destroyed them. Thats why I'm thinking ghosts when the game is approaching later stages (after you take your third). But IDK, Toss air is just really damn good. | ||
|
Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
On December 08 2010 04:38 4Servy wrote: thats how i played vs socke and other top tosses in the IEM and I practised it vs hasu, thing is you wont be able to compete with carrier/storm its just not effective enough. Problem with mech is that you get in the lategame 9/10 times against protoss and protoss lategame is simply unbeateble. There is no counter to air/templar its that simple, warpin mechanics only make it worse its like a mini recall and you cant push everywere because of it. Just a stupid question, what happens if you go BC for Anti-Air(PewPew interceptors, Yamato Carriers) instead of vikings? You have to keep up in air-upgrades for that to work is the immediate thought. | ||
|
link0
United States1071 Posts
| ||
|
noD
2230 Posts
we have slim hope of jinro winning but we have a hope, with siege tanks i think it would go to zero =( | ||
|
koppik
United States676 Posts
I don't know. If it'd work, I think you'd need +2 attack on the tanks in order to 2-shot the templar. | ||
|
Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On December 08 2010 06:00 Antisocialmunky wrote: Just a stupid question, what happens if you go BC for Anti-Air(PewPew interceptors, Yamato Carriers) instead of vikings? You have to keep up in air-upgrades for that to work is the immediate thought. HT-Carrier is sort of a counter to BC  Feedback the BC and kite with the Carrier. | ||
|
Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
Even with only 350 HP that's going to take a while. | ||
| ||
