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I know, it seems like a silly question.
I've been playing around with Protoss (I mainly play Zerg) and, coming from the huge speed and mobility of zerglings, Zealots just seem like they SUCK.
Really, the only units that they perform well against early on are zerglings or other zealots. The main problem that I have with them is that they're just SO SLOW.
I get so frustrated when 2 marines and a marauder can kite my 4 zealots forever, even WITHOUT concussive shell. They're incapable of forming an effective surround without charge, and even with charge, they close the gap, then go right back to being kited.
It doesn't seem fair that they NEED either charge or force field to be effective at anything other than a meat shield. Zerglings and marines both are super useful throughout the whole game as damage-dealing easily-massed units that can a-move and be relatively effective. Should I really need a high-gas cost unit that requires energy and a ton of micro just to make my base unit deal damage?
How can they be used effectively? Or should I just continue to lose when I make a larger-than-average amount of zealots, and win when I just skip them and mass stalkers?
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In PvP there are only good if your enemy has many zealots, then u need them. At lest you need some to deal with his Zealots. And when he has none,.....you know?
In PvZ needed against Zerglings and later as a meatshield (never seen hydras or roaches kite them (jeah ok maybe on creep, but not in a main fight or with armed protoss backup))
And PvT, I think it's +ev to have them as meatshield, and when you have stalker backup (or colossi,or....) it's not effectiv to kite them, also in the lategame with charge, they rock.
So, i think they are not always needed, but at least some are good to have as the core unit.
The problems you mentioned will mainly only happen when you have only zealots.
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meat shields, really good meat shields. (fucking awesome mineral dump meat shields after charge upgrade)
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Zealots are amazing meat shields, and once up close to the enemy do tremendous amounts of damage, both directly and indirectly.
Overall: Zealots are a very important part of kiting. You, in a way, actually want your zealots to be kited because you can micro your stalkers in the back to do a reversed kiting onto their kiting units. As they are trying to kite the zealots, you use your stalkers to move up, shoot, move up, shoot at their kiting units receiving literally no damage to your stalkers. This works because zealots are just so robust, and works even better once they have charge as they will actually be able to deal damage along with the stalkers.
Zealots are also surprisingly good against buildings. I would rather have 10 zealots attacking a building than 10 stalkers. I don't know the exact numbers on DPS and stuff, (I hate combining starcraft and math) but I know I've won base trades with primarily zealots when they had primarily stalkers.
PvP: They are obviously good for holding off 2gates and dumb stuff like that, but stalkers are actually fairly weak against zealots especially when there's a decent amount of them. Stalkers can't kite zealots forever, and once backed in a corner or not microed well, zealots do a ridiculous amount of damage to them. Also the overall kiting technique.
PvZ: Amazing against zerglings. I need not say much more about that topic but they are also very good for taking out drones and production buildings (like stated in the overall) and are great meatshields for ultra's and even hydra's in smaller numbers.
PvT: In PvT I find myself getting more and more zealots. Marines can't do enough damage to them to effectively deal with a lot of zealots, and marauders (once pushed to a wall) can't do shit to zealots. I find myself getting charge more and more in this match up just because of how "in your face" they are against Terran Bio. Also the overall statement applies here the most. I love having those marauders slow down those zealots thinking they're winning the fight, when they don't even realize my stalkers have been shooting them the entire time. Coupled with lower life from stim means by by OP Marauders.
In simpler terms: Zealots are boss.
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No offence but imho winning games should take some effort, otherwise sc2 would be one game no one would play. You know the terran is actually microing his units to actually kite those zealots, that means he's doing what he can to not get molested in melee. Actually, it doesnt seem fair when 4 zealots beats 4 marauders and 4 marines if the terran isn't microing and this even without charge..
You really should get the "high gas" units that the protoss arsenal does provide you and don't cry about the cost as most decent toss players will have more than enough gas compared to the terran during the first 5-6 minutes. Atleast if you are using the occational chrono boost to get out more workers.
Zealots should be used as meat for your ranged units, with charge they are great for flanking, or worker line harass if you feel like investing in a warp prism or have a close proxy pylon.
I don't really see why you'd want to change over to zealots if mass stalkers are winning you games. :/
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zealots are good for a couple things
1) they only cost minerals, so basically if you are doing gas-heavy builds they provide a good meat shield to keep ranged units from focusing down your power units (immortals/collosus/etc.)
2) zealots are not good for super early game against opponents with decent to good micro (terran mainly). this is why most builds involve getting either forge/cannons for early defense, or you see only 1 gate before cyber core.
3) mid/late game, it is essential that you get charge for your zealots, there is really no way around it.
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Zealots function as an excellent mineral dump when you have excess minerals. They are high-quality cannon-fodder that will constantly need replacing, so one should always have a fair bit of Zealots in their army. They become genuinely effective once they get the Charge upgrade.
Despite the fact that Zealots are a huge micro failure, they're pretty effective against most units, and their initial slowness can be helped with proper force-field usage. Sentries and Zealots complement each other SO well (provided you don't inadvertently shield your enemies from your Zealots with FF), and as a result my armies have had much fewer Stalkers than they used to in the past.
So tl;dr always get Zealots. They are useful in pretty much every army-army situation with the exception of air and specialty units like Banelings.
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zealots are amazing, especially in PvP where everyone seems to do the same exact mass stalker/collosus build. Zealots just own stalkers, i mean 16 damage per damage cycle is pretty high compared to stalkers 10 damage or whatever it is. I've won soooo many pvp games because of chargelots. You can also go with a 3 gateway, 1 robo warp prism tactic and just own the crap outta someone with zealots. Honestly the only basic unit that beats zealots early are roaches.
If zealots came with charege they'd be WAY op.
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On December 07 2010 05:47 TheSambassador wrote:
I know, it seems like a silly question.
I've been playing around with Protoss (I mainly play Zerg) and, coming from the huge speed and mobility of zerglings, Zealots just seem like they SUCK.
Really, the only units that they perform well against early on are zerglings or other zealots. The main problem that I have with them is that they're just SO SLOW.
I get so frustrated when 2 marines and a marauder can kite my 4 zealots forever, even WITHOUT concussive shell. They're incapable of forming an effective surround without charge, and even with charge, they close the gap, then go right back to being kited.
It doesn't seem fair that they NEED either charge or force field to be effective at anything other than a meat shield. Zerglings and marines both are super useful throughout the whole game as damage-dealing easily-massed units that can a-move and be relatively effective. Should I really need a high-gas cost unit that requires energy and a ton of micro just to make my base unit deal damage?
How can they be used effectively? Or should I just continue to lose when I make a larger-than-average amount of zealots, and win when I just skip them and mass stalkers?
this is what P players have to deal with.
toss also needs a good unit comp to win, mass stalkers won't beat everything
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You have to remember that Protoss is the only race that gets 3 units out of two structures. It's obvious that protoss is intended to use all three in tandem. All 3 guys are really good at doing a single task. Super good.
What you're experiencing is a the natural consequence of how well the trio of gateways work together. Protoss in defense needs to be patient as hell, because if you send units one by one, they die horribly, but once you have that combo of units, they start overlapping a bit.
So yeah, start weaning yourself away from this notion that zealots are unintentionally bad. It's the only way to stay sane.
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They are just a mineral dump. You usually end up building them because you have to. If you are planning on getting any higher tech units (robo, stargate, templar) you are going to have a mineral surplus. So you build zealots because they keep your money low and because they tank damage. The same is true of other races.
If zerg wants to make mutas, infestors, or any hive tech unit, they are going to have to build a lot of zerglings at some point in the game. If they are not making zerglings (or roaches maybe), then they are bound to have a mineral surplus.
Terran is the only race who has two choices when it comes to mineral dumping: marines or hellions. Since every race is bound to make mineral only units at some point, hellions are great because they counter the zerg and protoss mineral dump (lings/zealots). Alternatively, they can make marines, arguably the strongest tier one unit in the game because of its usability well into late game.
Since both the protoss and terran mineral dumps (zealots/hellions) counter zerg's mineral dump (lings), Blizzard created banelings, a way for zerg to make up for the weakness of zerglings in the late game against the other races' mineral dumps.
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On December 07 2010 06:20 megagoten wrote:
toss also needs a good unit comp to win, mass stalkers won't beat everything
Well thats not the only thing, Zealots are actually pretty good versus mass marines or mass marauder, lings if you have zealot in good numbers. Its all about positioning. If you let your zealots be kited and you just a move into there stuff ofcourse theyll try to save there units. marines are equally as fast*or a bit faster wich u cant kite with* as zealot so if they want to kite they need marauders with concussive shells or they wont be able to do it for very long lol.
It all depends on numbers and what the composition is made of in late game.
Chargelots are absurdly good, Makes the enemy micro there army back without the ability of kiting . to an eventuall dead end where the zealots will kill them.
But as it is with any units composition except blink stalkers you will be needing an army composition of exacly the right amount of everything. So if you have mass zealot you should have sentrys/collossi/voidrays/phoenix, anything gas intensive backing up so the kiting doesnt work as planned.
Thats the beauty of being a toss player i guess. you really need to make your personal army composition with how you want to do in battle and what exacly you want to do..
More zealots early game mean more sentry's so if you just add 3 stalkers just for protection you will have LOTS of forcefields (wich will be the timing and micro part of such an opening)
In some builds people tend to go 3 zealot and a few sentrys to block of the ramp and get that few minerals out of the way they didnt use for sentrys and go mass stalker.
Some builds dont involve anything but stalkers (blinkstalker obv) but require allot more army microing instead of individual microing.
So what i wanted to say with this was.
Zealots wont ever be without sentry's forcefields early game (except my chargelot rush build wich is supereffective against any MMM timing push early game). Thats how protoss works 
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I'm totally aware that going mass stalkers every game is bad, and I really want to get away from it (I've only done it for about 4 games, all of which I won).
I guess the overall answer is "they suck by themselves, but they complement other units extremely well." I'm still getting a feel to protoss and how many of each unit to make, and where I could say "I just need zerglings to deal with this force" as Zerg, I can't yet say "I just need some of X and X to beat this many X guy." That'll definitely come with more experience.
As to the "you should have to do work," I guess I just feel like the differences in the micro difficulty is pretty high. Scoot n' Shoot is SO easy, and it's the same reason that mass stalkers is easy. Force fielding enough of their units in a way that lets your zealots hit them isn't the hardest thing in the world, but it's much harder than scoot n' shoot.
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Zealots are good for spending minerals on. They're good meat shields and meat walls, and they do good DPS if left alone.
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Zealots are statistical monsters, but you have to find ways to use them. Forcefield, circle your opponent, use probes to block... once you get them in their face they beat pretty much every other unit in the game :p
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vs terran bio, chargelots +2 armor = gg
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Attack with a group of zealots and stalkers behind with 1 sentry using guardian shield.
Kill an equal of units as the zealots.
Retreat with your fast stalkers
Warp in 3-4 more zealots
repeat
Continue doing this until either colossi range or storm are ready.
stop making stalkers, make only zealots, preferably with speed.
Repeat, but now dealing damage with colossi/HTs instead of stalkers.
As long as you only lost zealots, you came out ahead in pretty much any fight.
If you feel like delaying your tech, invest in a few extra sentries and cut the enemy army in half so the zealots actually get to deal damage.
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Same as everyone else. Meatshields.
I miss the speed upgrade. Charge is so lame.
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The thing I hate about zealots the most is that they r so freaking slow and that stalks are soooo fast. It leaves you with zealots barely outside your base when your stalks are already at your opponents choke lol. If you can keep them with your army they are good but ya if they go off on their own they absolutely suck. Zerg probably feels the same about hydra off creep
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On December 07 2010 07:21 Widar wrote:
Same as everyone else. Meatshields.
I miss the speed upgrade. Charge is so lame.
Yeah, i think a 150/150 speed upgrade would be better than 200/200 charge. I bet it would be used a ton more in the early game. They'd also need to cut the research time in half. Zealots are supposed to be scary. They aren't very scary when they are slower than a turtle.
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If you think zealots suck against zerglings -
You have macro problems.
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On December 07 2010 07:28 papaHav wrote:
If you think zealots suck against zerglings -
You have macro problems.
This, especially +1 zealots. Omg, 10 +1 zealots kept tight will absolutely destroy huge numbers of zerglings.
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I love them.
Have I had rage spats where I get kitted by terran basic units? Sure.
But have you seen fully upgraded zealots with charge?
My fucking face.
+2 weapon chargelots are hysterical versus zerg, and +2 armor versus terran means they just take so long to die. Not even mentioning 3/3, cause generally it doesn't go that far.
Also, warping in 4 zealots + 4 storms, now thats a cost efficient death dealing army.
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Calgary25998 Posts
I never build Zealots without Sentries. There's something really satisfying about jamming that Terran ball into a fucking corner and filling it with Zealots.
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On December 07 2010 06:08 Trizzen wrote:
No offence but imho winning games should take some effort, otherwise sc2 would be one game no one would play. You know the terran is actually microing his units to actually kite those zealots, that means he's doing what he can to not get molested in melee. Actually, it doesnt seem fair when 4 zealots beats 4 marauders and 4 marines if the terran isn't microing and this even without charge..
You really should get the "high gas" units that the protoss arsenal does provide you and don't cry about the cost as most decent toss players will have more than enough gas compared to the terran during the first 5-6 minutes. Atleast if you are using the occational chrono boost to get out more workers.
Zealots should be used as meat for your ranged units, with charge they are great for flanking, or worker line harass if you feel like investing in a warp prism or have a close proxy pylon.
I don't really see why you'd want to change over to zealots if mass stalkers are winning you games. :/
...yes fine but stim complements kiting so well that unless you have forcefields, a gateway army (at least before storm) is INCAPABLE of killing a marine marauder bio ball. Concussive shell doesn't have a cooldown. Charge does. Yes, a-moving units doesn't require micro. But the micro involved in stim kiting isn't difficult either.
did you just say...mass stalkers are winning you games...did you really just say that...
marauders are so cost effective against stalkers that the only time a terran would lose to that is if he/she was either extremely far behind or got 9x forcefielded. that's about it.
Don't tell the thread-starter to stop crying if your'e going to cry yourself about your troubles with protoss.
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Does anybody realize that Charge IS A SPEED UPGRADE?!
I constantly see these "Zealots get kited FOREVER!" comments which is simply a falacy - they get kited in unfavorable situations, which include:
* Being on creep
* Against stim
* Against concussive
* Against stalkers
Early game, before stim or concussive are done, Zealots do not get kited (they have their attacks delayed by some kiting micro, but not the severity of the above conditions).
Once Zealots upgrade charge they receive a 0.5 increase to their BASE speed as well as the charge every 10 seconds, which results in Zealots outspeeding Marines, Marauders and Hydralisks by a fair margin in Protoss-favorable conditions.
As said numerous times in this thread, however, Zealots are the meat shield and need additional units to support. This is why the Korean 4gate is not nearly as popular as it originally was is because players have learned to adapt to the slow base speed of Zealots. Zealots paired with other units, however, increase the cost efficiency of Stalkers immensely and give the Sentry a real solid purpose in the Protoss army with proper forcefields. Do you think Sentries would be that good if they forcefielded a bioball in half when it's stim Marines and Marauders against a Stalker ball? The answer is no: even HALF a bioball worth of stim MM would decimate a large Stalker ball due to how cost inefficient Stalkers are without proper support.
Back to my original point: Charge IS a movement speed upgrade. It's not an enormous one like Leg Enhancements was, but the Charge mechanic itself is also ridiculously useful in performing a surround and concave MUCH quicker than was possible in Brood War.
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they will shield your meat like no other <3
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if you watch huk play he keeps his zealots/sentries on a seperate hotkey than his stalkers and the rest of his army. In order to use them effectively you want to always have them in front.. this sounds obvious but how many times have you watched your zealots in a battle bumping into your stalkers from behind effectively doing nothing in the battle?
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On December 07 2010 07:45 Chill wrote:
I never build Zealots without Sentries. There's something really satisfying about jamming that Terran ball into a fucking corner and filling it with Zealots.
+1.
I don't understand why anyone wouldn't make sentries in any composition , they are a match winner from Tier 1 till tier 3 (Obv you have to not get them stomped on, but even putting them behind ultras to seperate the Hydras is very effective).
So how do you use Zealots? With sentries.
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I dont get why ppl are saying how chargelots function great vs the MM ball.
Try stiming the ruaders and have the chargelot atk. With proper micro/kiting, the charge duration will run out before EVER reaching the rauder and thus die w/o doing a good job of ever dealing dmg as so many have suggested.
Zerglings on the other hand even though they are 'countered' by so many different units, they are, just like marines, the best tier one unit in the game. Both lings and rins have their place in Late game; and rins can still deal insane dps and the ling is still a very potent sniper and harass unit.
The key w/ a tier 1 unit being useful is the mobility it has during Mid/Late game. Lings are super fast, rins have stim and deal high dps, but lots are the slowest of the 3. They do not have mobility. Even during late game ppl still fear a ling counter attack, or marine drops. NO ONE fears chargelot drops or even chargelot run by, especially not even during battles (mirrors dont count).
Roaches/Hydras/Infestor/Bling evaporate lots on the battlefield with lots takes one or two volleys before they ell evaporate. Rin/Rauder/Hellion/Reaper/Tanks do a little magic trick called shooting and all the lots become little flickering candle light in the middle of a field. (if you think the same happens w/ lings watch the GSL. they come in from all sides and divert a ton of fire and can stop a retreat and allow the army to be cleaned up while stopping reinforcements at the same time)
On December 07 2010 09:23 fusihunter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 07:45 Chill wrote:
I never build Zealots without Sentries. There's something really satisfying about jamming that Terran ball into a fucking corner and filling it with Zealots. +1. I don't understand why anyone wouldn't make sentries in any composition , they are a match winner from Tier 1 till tier 3 (Obv you have to not get them stomped on, but even putting them behind ultras to seperate the Hydras is very effective). So how do you use Zealots? With sentries.
Well heres the thing, lings and rins operate well WITHOUT any other unit assistance, while lots HAVE to rely on sentries.
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There is a Trick that you can use to help against kiting in PvT once you have charge its more micro but it helps you get a better surround. You turn off auto cast charge and when your about to engage you Press C and click on the middle marine or marauder. When are about half way surrounded you A Move them near the pile of bio. Basically instead of the majority of your zealots trying to find a gap to surround and surrounding about half the ball they will swing all the way around the back for an almost full surround of the bio. Now the bio ball has to kite even farther to escape the surround. You can rinse and repeat. I haven't seen this posted anywhere on this forum. You can give it a try in game. Its not difficult to execute.
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well, correct me if im wrong, but in BW weren't zealots really a mid-game unit tbh? they really didn't come into play too much until you had leg speed... i think the same is true in sc2.
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Zealots aren't great. They're really useful in PvT because they soak up marauder damage so well, but have very limited roles in PvZ and PvP. In PvZ, after the first few you might make to harass or bust the front with a gateway all-in, you really only make them as a mineral dump because all of the good units are gas-heavy.
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On December 07 2010 09:32 MoMoGai wrote:
I dont get why ppl are saying how chargelots function great vs the MM ball.
Try stiming the ruaders and have the chargelot atk. With proper micro/kiting, the charge duration will run out before EVER reaching the rauder and thus die w/o doing a good job of ever dealing dmg as so many have suggested.
Umm... Firstly, if you're army is magically composed of only marauders, the army difference would just totally overwhelm you. Secondly, are you SERIOUS? Chargelots directed to attack a terran mm will at the very minimum REACH your army. You kite, moving back, and the second charge they take like 4,5 swipes at the front of your army. Then third charge the final surround gets you raped.
This is not including the fact that stalkers are taking free shots while you try to kite chargelots, that and protoss always has sentries for guardian shields ANYWAY 4
(aka. ff split your army in half, that's pretty ownage).
Also you should note that they will probably have more zealots then you have marauders, just because of the build time, and the fact zealots don't need any gas. That means no matter how hard you kite, unslowed chargelots will just run up into your army and stay there, slicing whatever it can.
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EDIT: In pvt chargelots rock, because the twilight council helps you work your way up to ht tech, as any good terran will always get vikings to get ready to own your colossus.
In pvp it's a bit controversial. Early game, you'll definitely have an advantage, just because chargelots can munch through stalkers sooo well. However, if you got a twilight council and they're going standard for colossus, you're in a slight bit of trouble. (ff ramp shuts down a lot of attempts to end game there and then). I like to use chargelots and get an expo, and try to use my chargelots to deny any expansions while I abuse my economic advantage and get either colossus or voids (well, just trying out void rays because of patch, but if I really want to win I'll usually just get colossus)
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i find if people don't mirco vs zealots, the zealots win every game this is coming from a bronze player perspective
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
I have been playing as protoss lately (switched from zerg) and I have to say that I enjoy the feel of protoss units so much more because you really need to know how to use them to correctly complement each other, as opposed to the boring hydra/roach or marine/marauder ball.
Until you learn the strengths of every unit they all seem dumb and useless, but when you use them properly it feels so satisfying. This was particularly prominent with immortals for me, at first they were just getting stuck behind the stalkers all the time and weren't even shooting, but when I learned to keep them in the zealot control group instead of the stalker group and order them to attack proper targets they are just crazy, scoring 5-10 kills on average.
As for the zealots, they should have some support so that they don't get outmanoeuvred. Stalkers prevent marines and marauders from getting free shots and the sentries are of course amazing. Also try not to engage in an open field, try to use terrain to block the enemy units. As soon as they have nowhere to run they will get sliced up really fast. Zealots actually have one of the highest dps.
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On December 07 2010 09:59 TibblesEvilCat wrote:
i find if people don't mirco vs zealots, the zealots win every game this is coming from a bronze player perspective
 Only problem is that they will later on, always micro against zealots. That's why zealot is always coupled with either charge (which can own everything), or sentries with force field.
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I just finnished reading, and I just thought to myself "why am I up 2 am reading this shit". I don't even know what people are typing about, the people typing doesn't know what the thread was about? wth is this thread about? Is it dedicated to informing the world that zealots suck (in your opinion)? the first 2/3's of balance whine makes it apear that way.
The last 2 lines and the title is what saves you. The amount of information in trying to tell you how to use zealots in every different situation would cause the whole server to crash hence I suggest you do the following.
1. You can play a few games without using zealots and see where that gets you. No greater way to see the value of a unit but to have it temporarily removed.
2. Watch some good vods and see how more experienced people deal with the problems.
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Australia326 Posts
When I 2gate-into stargate, I make mostly Zealots to absorb damage for my Voids.
That said, upgraded Zealots (with charge) are excellent in most stages of the game.
They can tank quite well in numbers and deal decent damage too. (:
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In PvT i think they so damned Strong against all Earlypush that might come from Terran most Times i just get 2 Stalker and rest Chargelots against any Early Pressure (against Banshee i use 1-2 Phönix depend on the Number of Banshee) most times i killed everything the Terran have and a-click in theire Base and start Macro Heavy most Times they trying to kill all the remaining Zaelots when my first Colossi start to build ;p
In PvZ i think you mostly need them for early Agression (Meathsield vs Spinecrawler/Roach and DD against Lings) but on the Mid/Lategame they are not rly that good cause u focus more on Splitting the Zerg Army in Half and its not worth when the whole Zerg Army still can kill ur Zaelots.
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The purpose of zealots without charge is to act as a meatshield for your sentries and stalkers to fire. They are useless on their own.
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On December 07 2010 09:56 sas911 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 09:32 MoMoGai wrote:
I dont get why ppl are saying how chargelots function great vs the MM ball.
Try stiming the ruaders and have the chargelot atk. With proper micro/kiting, the charge duration will run out before EVER reaching the rauder and thus die w/o doing a good job of ever dealing dmg as so many have suggested. Umm... Firstly, if you're army is magically composed of only marauders, the army difference would just totally overwhelm you. Secondly, are you SERIOUS? Chargelots directed to attack a terran mm will at the very minimum REACH your army. You kite, moving back, and the second charge they take like 4,5 swipes at the front of your army. Then third charge the final surround gets you raped.
You do realize that in order for charge to activate 3 times, its 30 sec cooldown (10 sec per charge cd) + duration of charge (cooldown start after charge ability is finished). I dont know how many zealots a person would need vs how less MM the opponent needs in order to need to kite chargelots for 30+ sec.
Also charge range exceeds that of stalker atk range and walk speed, and No, an mm ball doesnt need all rauders because rins deal the dps since they can atk almost 2x as fast. The units closest to the army gets slowed by the rauders. The concusive EFFECTS charge. So charge speed is cut IN HALF which is roughly the speed of a stalker normally. STIM makes the units much faster than a stalker can run. The chargelot should not reach within melee range with proper micro of the MM ball. Yes, chargelots are good in very small skirmishes, but once there is a decent army count during the mid game, they evaporate w/o being able to do much if at all.
EDIT: In pvt chargelots rock, because the twilight council helps you work your way up to ht tech, as any good terran will always get vikings to get ready to own your colossus.
In pvp it's a bit controversial. Early game, you'll definitely have an advantage, just because chargelots can munch through stalkers sooo well. However, if you got a twilight council and they're going standard for colossus, you're in a slight bit of trouble. (ff ramp shuts down a lot of attempts to end game there and then). I like to use chargelots and get an expo, and try to use my chargelots to deny any expansions while I abuse my economic advantage and get either colossus or voids (well, just trying out void rays because of patch, but if I really want to win I'll usually just get colossus)
What youre saying is that going HT is a good way to research charge. However, if you head straight for twilight, a shee opening or even delayed opening = auto lose on the P end, or the roach burrow micro will break P apart w/o robo. P is FORCED to open robo.
By the time twilight and charge is researched, the game would have already moved on to the mid/late game where the armies are at a size where chargelots are rendered near ineffective as the die very fast to everything the other 2 races have to offer.
Yes, maybe in specifically selected games and against certain openings and matchups and positioning, chargelots are viable to use. However, in the majority of the games played and even at top level play, chargelots are no where near as effective and viable as you have assumed. Yes, charge allows zealots to be better and more useful, but it is SUCH a late tech and so costly, like the reaper nitro pack being moved to require factory, the margin where charge is viable is slim, and with the inherent weakness of the tech tree and opponents opening options available, chargelots are not justified for the investment.
I think the only role currently for zealots in general are to act as early game buffers that allow the P player to tech up into Colos or HT and act as a mineral dump, not some amazing game changing unit that many ppl have suggested.
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I saw one player use a forward pylon to warp in 2 zealots while the rest of his army moved to the backdoor. Once the enemy engaged him at the back he walked his zealots in the front door straight to the mineral line. (This was PvP game, same could apply to a non blocked Terran, or against a Zerg if you call in 3-4 Zealots to make quick work of the Queen(s).)
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United States328 Posts
Seriously?
PvT: Say you get dropped in your main. What would you warp in, four stalkers, four zealots or two zealots and two stalker? The latter, obviously. Warping in zealots on top of an army is awesome, AND they prevent your expensive stalkers from dying.
Another example: In PvP, if both players do a 4gate, it comes down to whoever has more zealots.
PvZ: Someone opens dimaga style. What, are you going to make a bunch of stalkers and get faceraped by hardcore speedling mass?
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 07 2010 09:32 MoMoGai wrote:I dont get why ppl are saying how chargelots function great vs the MM ball. Try stiming the ruaders and have the chargelot atk. With proper micro/kiting, the charge duration will run out before EVER reaching the rauder and thus die w/o doing a good job of ever dealing dmg as so many have suggested. Zerglings on the other hand even though they are 'countered' by so many different units, they are, just like marines, the best tier one unit in the game. Both lings and rins have their place in Late game; and rins can still deal insane dps and the ling is still a very potent sniper and harass unit. The key w/ a tier 1 unit being useful is the mobility it has during Mid/Late game. Lings are super fast, rins have stim and deal high dps, but lots are the slowest of the 3. They do not have mobility. Even during late game ppl still fear a ling counter attack, or marine drops. NO ONE fears chargelot drops or even chargelot run by, especially not even during battles (mirrors dont count). Roaches/Hydras/Infestor/Bling evaporate lots on the battlefield with lots takes one or two volleys before they ell evaporate. Rin/Rauder/Hellion/Reaper/Tanks do a little magic trick called shooting and all the lots become little flickering candle light in the middle of a field. (if you think the same happens w/ lings watch the GSL. they come in from all sides and divert a ton of fire and can stop a retreat and allow the army to be cleaned up while stopping reinforcements at the same time) Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 09:23 fusihunter wrote:On December 07 2010 07:45 Chill wrote:
I never build Zealots without Sentries. There's something really satisfying about jamming that Terran ball into a fucking corner and filling it with Zealots. +1. I don't understand why anyone wouldn't make sentries in any composition , they are a match winner from Tier 1 till tier 3 (Obv you have to not get them stomped on, but even putting them behind ultras to seperate the Hydras is very effective). So how do you use Zealots? With sentries. Well heres the thing, lings and rins operate well WITHOUT any other unit assistance, while lots HAVE to rely on sentries.
Here's another thing, Zealots operate EXTREMELY well along with sentry support, especially in the earlier stages of the game. As long as your force field micro isn't terrible a sentry and zealot heavy composition should do well against most things your opponent can throw at you in the early game. The often so fearsome MM ball becomes laughable once you place three or four force fields behind them and letting your Zealots go to work. I really think you underestimate this unit's potential.
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ummm
zealots are used to tank damage, and deal damage, and to not waste gas, against ground units
seriously zealots are awesome units, they just take a few forcefeilds to be effective
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To be fair, zealots have the same movespeed as marines and marauders without stim, and take very little damage as a fraction of their hp from marines and marauders. Also, their damage is off the charts. So if they were any faster, you'd be hearing terran cry imba, because the wouldn't be able to run with their marines/marauders without stimming. It pretty much forces you to get supporting units, yes, but i mean, how well do you expect to do with pure zealot?
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PvP Collosi eat zealots and make me sad : (
PvZ Roaches and Hydras eat zealots with or without kiting and make me sad (PS hydras can kite slowlots offcreep) : ((
PvT Slowlots are useless beyond letting your stalkers shoot without getting instajibbed, by the time you can get chargelots its at the point in the game where it is simply detrimental to get charge. Have you ever seen zealots charge forward into MM ball? Each zealot gets 1 strike, and the ball takes steps back and kites for eternity because your ranged units are too far away to hit the MM ball, and the zealots can't retreat nor attack because of kiting and conc shell as well as their overall speed. No matter the situation, attempting to use zealots for a hundred games gas left me sad : (((
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For all you zealot haters out there, check out MarineKingPrime.WE vs oGsMC in the GSL Ro8. MC delivers a masterclass on how to use zealots, especially in the early game. (Set 2 and Set 3 especially) + Show Spoiler +Turns out zealot + probe is the best unit combination ^_^.
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I use Zealots the same way I use Zerglings. Use them as that melee unit to tie them up and have them focus fire and have my ranged units, like Hydras or Stalkers, take them out while they're busy.
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Really Really high DPS meat shields. Essentially you a-move some zealots into a maurder/roach force, now if they stutter step the AI auto attacks the zealots while they take pot shots from the stalkers, if they plain up retreat they take less pot shots from the stalkers but loose position, if they just hold the line zealots start to cut the mm/roach faces up while taking potshots from stalkers. Alternatively on defense you put them in front and then when an opposing force comes at you bro, you FF the back half off and lol as the zealots move in to make some terrible terrible damage.
Zealots are boss even after the nerf, Foxer died to a 1gate proxy.
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Everyone keeps saying they suck until charge, doesn't anyone skip early stalkers and just do zealot/sentry? 6 zealots + 2 sentries as my first units keeps me very, very safe. Forcefields to keep some away, to keep some close, guardian shield to keep everything cozy and not much can touch you in the first few minutes.
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Zealots to me seem OP T^T (Zerg player)
Basically owns every ground unit once you get charge and too tanky =/
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Do you remember the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan? Do you remember how the main characters in the scene where the landing craft door opened had time to jump over the sides of the boat because of all the guys in front of them taking the bullets?
Yeah, sucks to be a Zealot.
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that was an intense first scene :o
except that's when they were invading the beach; zealots get that whether your'e attacking or defending... yes. it REALLY sucks to be a zealot.
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Ok... so after actually playing lots of Protoss, I'll admit it - I love zealots.
When I started this post I was just frustrated by being rolled over by stimmed marine/maurader. However, I've "figured out" how to use force-fields relatively effectively, and holy crap zealots do SO much damage.
Overall though, it seems like Protoss is still pretty heavily reliant on the sentry. It's SUCH a good unit, so ridiculously versatile (I almost would say the best caster in the game), but it almost doesn't feel like a choice. I really don't see myself ever NOT making a Sentry in a game... there is literally no place where they would be bad. Is this the problem?
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I used to get stalkers all the time and would lose a lot to terran MM balls. Once I started getting more zealots, probably a 3/2 zealot:stalker ratio, upgrading armor first, and using guardian shield, my gateway army just shits all over an mm ball, even with stim.
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Is there a thread anywhere that really captures what happened in the xel naga caverns game between Jinro and oGsMC.
I'm not really giving spoilers. I think the basic uses of zealot as meat shield and the strength of charelogts vs bio/hydra has been pretty much covered.
But the idea of zealot as early game mineral sink in sync with sentry forcefield is obscene.
I think if protoss is played well, everyone else is at the mercy of their exact unit composition for the first ten minutes of the game (too many bunkers vs units, too many roaches vs lings/crawlers, too many zealots).
I must reiterate, everyone is at the mercy of the aggressive Toss unit comp, or they autolose.
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Zealot+immortal+phoenix in PvP
Zealot+few stalkers+immortal--->Zealot+immortal+stalkers+colossi (if it ever gets that far) in PvT
Zealot+stalker+immortal-->Zealot+Immortal+Archon+Carrier (for shitzandgigz) in PvZ
I <3 zealots, especially chargelots. Rush for charge most games (2gate-council-robo-moargates). Use obs/xel naga towers to watch out for incoming armies, wait for them to be perpendicular to army and then charge in for epic death.
Zealots actually whip tanks and marine/marauder horribly if you catch them as they are moving out.
Charge in from behind+side, hurpsword death, and use stalkers to roast any medivacs and tanks that are blocked by blobs of marauines
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well Zealots imho suck bad, especially against M&M when Medivacs start to kick in.
Protoss really needs to get AOE dmg or they get screwed, the problem is of course they just can't deal enough dmg. Best DMG Dealer Zealot usually does not get into the position dealing dmg at all.
Even Charge does not change that, (the speedupgrade with charge at least helps alot more)
without zealots out of the picture we are now stuck with Stalkers as dmg, which are the least cost efficient unit in the game.
Sure Forcefields helps a lot but still, what when your enemy does not engage you in position that favors you? one wasted forcefield, costs you the game, you can't run away cause you have to engage because your units are so fucking slow.
all in all Protoss have to play really precautiously, cause errors are severly punished during micro battles.
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EPT
