EPTAs far as this becoming the standard: I really don't think so. I think 14hatch will continue to be the standard against terran and the 14 pool will continue to be more popular than this 11 pool. Don't get me wrong, I like the build, I just don't think it will overthrow the others anytime soon.
[D] The new Zerg standard for all match-ups? - Page 46
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
roadrunner343
148 Posts
As far as this becoming the standard: I really don't think so. I think 14hatch will continue to be the standard against terran and the 14 pool will continue to be more popular than this 11 pool. Don't get me wrong, I like the build, I just don't think it will overthrow the others anytime soon. | ||
|
Morphs
Netherlands645 Posts
I combine this build with an early 9 scout to start with early worker harrassment. The early pool tends to freak out the enemy zerg and you will have speedlings a lot earlier. If he expands you can punish him by massing speedlings. By keeping the drones on gas you have some early tech options (roaches, lair or +1 melee). Flexibility is what makes this build strong. The biggest vulnerability is when the opponent goes for banelings, which is also the one loss I had. Good scouting in combination with a Roach Warren should take care of this threat.. | ||
|
DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
On December 15 2010 20:17 Morphs wrote: I've seen quite some discussion about this build vs T, but I actually found it very strong in ZvZ, which is by far my worst MU. Yesteryday I went 4-1 in ZvZ games with this build (I'm in plat). I combine this build with an early 9 scout to start with early worker harrassment. The early pool tends to freak out the enemy zerg and you will have speedlings a lot earlier. If he expands you can punish him by massing speedlings. By keeping the drones on gas you have some early tech options (roaches, lair or +1 melee). Flexibility is what makes this build strong. The biggest vulnerability is when the opponent goes for banelings, which is also the one loss I had. Good scouting in combination with a Roach Warren should take care of this threat.. I dont see what a 9 pool has to do with the build presented in the OP, its like, something completely different.. a 9 pool sacrifices alot of economy, but on most maps your lings will arrive too late to do any significant damage. On December 15 2010 11:38 jdseemoreglass wrote: You came back and found this thread which had already dropped to the second page since yesterday just to criticize me one more time? My unwillingness to accept irrational and unsupported claims is clearly not the problem here. See, this is exactly what i was talking about. Are you saying that noone is allowed to critize you anymore just because there has not been a post in the thread for a couple of hours? What does this have to do with your unwillingness to accept critisism? This is just another ad hominem attack by you. On December 15 2010 18:38 icezar wrote: The simple fact that so many of you have more against jdseemoreglass then the BO means that it is a good BO :D. Only time will tell if this will become the standard on not. Another complete non-sense argument. Just because OP acts like a pretty big douche here and there doesnt make his BO better. | ||
|
[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On December 15 2010 22:48 DarKFoRcE wrote: 9 scout, not 9 pool.I dont see what a 9 pool has to do with the build presented in the OP, its like, something completely different. On December 15 2010 19:09 roadrunner343 wrote: May be "modified Lomilar" or just "Lomilar" is a good start.I've been calling it the Lomilar build (User that submitted it) but if it does catch on, I would imagine it would just be called the 11pool/18hatch like every other build. edit: The original Lomilar is a bit different: + Show Spoiler + 10 Overlord 10 Pool (finishes @ 2:30) 15 Queen 17 Overlord 18 Hatch (finishes @ 4:55) 20 Queen 23 Overlord 30 Overlord 10 Overlord 10 Pool (finishes @ 2:30) 15 Queen 17 Overlord 18 Hatch (finishes @ 4:55) 20 Queen 23 Overlord 30 Overlord Maynard Drones 32 Overlord 35 Overlord | ||
|
DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
On December 15 2010 23:56 [F_]aths wrote: 9 scout, not 9 pool. May be "modified Lomilar" or just "Lomilar" is a good start. edit: The original Lomilar is a bit different: + Show Spoiler + 10 Overlord 10 Pool (finishes @ 2:30) 15 Queen 17 Overlord 18 Hatch (finishes @ 4:55) 20 Queen 23 Overlord 30 Overlord 10 Overlord 10 Pool (finishes @ 2:30) 15 Queen 17 Overlord 18 Hatch (finishes @ 4:55) 20 Queen 23 Overlord 30 Overlord Maynard Drones 32 Overlord 35 Overlord Sorry i missread. So are you scouting early just so you can harras his workers a little..? I doubt its worth it. Also, are you sure you have speedlings so much earlier than a 14 gas 14 pool build? Im curious about the timing here, because its hard for me to believe that you can get a queen and speed in time while keeping up ling production. | ||
|
fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On December 16 2010 00:35 DarKFoRcE wrote: Sorry i missread. So are you scouting early just so you can harras his workers a little..? I doubt its worth it. Also, are you sure you have speedlings so much earlier than a 14 gas 14 pool build? Im curious about the timing here, because its hard for me to believe that you can get a queen and speed in time while keeping up ling production. the original build doesn't include gas. though some people modified it to support gas at 18 before or after(?) hatch. speed is definately way later than a 14 gas 14 pool. you can have lings faster though, but it will hurt your economy more than a 14 pool. to add a name: this build is called 11pool 18 hatch. dunno why people want to rename it. | ||
|
[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On December 16 2010 00:35 DarKFoRcE wrote: I normally scout with 10th or 11th drone, but I am currently just silver ranked ;(Sorry i missread. So are you scouting early just so you can harras his workers a little..? I doubt its worth it. Also, are you sure you have speedlings so much earlier than a 14 gas 14 pool build? Im curious about the timing here, because its hard for me to believe that you can get a queen and speed in time while keeping up ling production. With this build I usually take gas at 15. So you get speedlings later that my second-next favoured BO (14 gas 13 pool) but you can get speedlings quite early. Starting queen at 16 is nice for early larvae, but of course the larvae from the second hatch come a bit later. Since i am a newb, I sometimes skip the hatch in favour of a roach warren for early pressure. | ||
|
MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
 tnxalso i dont see why u wanna make this build vs toss, it seems like ur wasting eco to get slow lings to stop early aggression and delaying ur speed for a long time. the key to stop stalker aggresion is speedling so it doesnt make sense in head head why u would not want to open 14gas14pool vs toss | ||
|
jacobman
217 Posts
On December 16 2010 02:08 MorroW wrote: are there any replays out from the statistics u made graph, id like to see those 2 replays where u just test out the economics tnxalso i dont see why u wanna make this build vs toss, it seems like ur wasting eco to get slow lings to stop early aggression and delaying ur speed for a long time. the key to stop stalker aggresion is speedling so it doesnt make sense in head head why u would not want to open 14gas14pool vs toss http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174374 This has the most information about the economies. Look in the economic data section. Replays are included in the Extras. | ||
|
MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On December 16 2010 02:11 jacobman wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174374 This has the most information about the economies. ah nvm ill read it now tnx it says 15h15p but in the bo it says 15h14p... xd | ||
|
jacobman
217 Posts
On December 16 2010 02:12 MorroW wrote: why doesnt it have a 15hatch 15pool in it which is the most common build in tvz It does... | ||
|
jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On December 16 2010 02:08 MorroW wrote: are there any replays out from the statistics u made graph, id like to see those 2 replays where u just test out the economics tnxalso i dont see why u wanna make this build vs toss, it seems like ur wasting eco to get slow lings to stop early aggression and delaying ur speed for a long time. the key to stop stalker aggresion is speedling so it doesnt make sense in head head why u would not want to open 14gas14pool vs toss If you check right above the graph there is a spoiler which includes the two replays. These replays are superior to the ones posted in the previous thread because they use a better method of execution. | ||
|
jacobman
217 Posts
On December 16 2010 02:12 MorroW wrote: ah nvm ill read it now tnx it says 15h15p but in the bo it says 15h14p... xd yeah, the 15h14p name is wrong. I didn't want to upload it again just to change the name. Good catch by the way. Most people don't notice those things. | ||
|
MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
sc2 doesnt work that way u have to test things against other builds and how timings work to me it just doesnt make sense to me a how a 11overpool 18hatch can be a strong build in economy is 13pool 15hatch even a build? ive never heard of it. to my experience theres been alot of low level players who make statistics and make up bos and so on to think they are better when in real game its not the case. no offense but i think the korean zerg progamers figure out the better bos in this game than some mediocre gamers who make statistics like this usually i go test bos myself when they seem to make sense in theory to me but this doesnt interest me at all. ill start doing this when the progamers in gsl are :p | ||
|
jacobman
217 Posts
On December 16 2010 02:17 MorroW wrote: anyhow how can i draw and conclusions out of simple graphs or statistics out of a random picked time stamp like 6:20 sc2 doesnt work that way u have to test things against other builds and how timings work to me it just doesnt make sense to me a how a 11overpool 18hatch can be a strong build in economy It's not really "strong". At least not from the data I got. If you notice it's the worst economy out of the builds I tested. It doesn't however have a poor economy. I think strong is the wrong word. | ||
|
jacobman
217 Posts
On December 16 2010 02:17 MorroW wrote: anyhow how can i draw and conclusions out of simple graphs or statistics out of a random picked time stamp like 6:20 sc2 doesnt work that way u have to test things against other builds and how timings work to me it just doesnt make sense to me a how a 11overpool 18hatch can be a strong build in economy is 13pool 15hatch even a build? ive never heard of it. to my experience theres been alot of low level players who make statistics and make up bos and so on to think they are better when in real game its not the case. no offense but i think the korean zerg progamers figure out the better bos in this game than some mediocre gamers who make statistics like this usually i go test bos myself when they seem to make sense in theory to me but this doesnt interest me at all. ill start doing this when the progamers in gsl are :p the 13P15H was just my response to this threads claim that the 11P18H was the best pool first build. That's all. Also my tests are just meant to look at economic potential. I'm not claiming any of the builds are THE build that every zerg should be using. It's just data man. | ||
|
jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On December 16 2010 02:17 MorroW wrote: anyhow how can i draw and conclusions out of simple graphs or statistics out of a random picked time stamp like 6:20 sc2 doesnt work that way u have to test things against other builds and how timings work to me it just doesnt make sense to me a how a 11overpool 18hatch can be a strong build in economy is 13pool 15hatch even a build? ive never heard of it. to my experience theres been alot of low level players who make statistics and make up bos and so on to think they are better when in real game its not the case. no offense but i think the korean zerg progamers figure out the better bos in this game than some mediocre gamers who make statistics like this The 4 best performing builds have been tested at various times. The reason for analyzing the economy was not for any kind of strategy discussion, just to show people how they each compared and what potential sacrifices are made. I have another thread which offered variations on this build for each match-up to try and work out the best timings in each situation. For example, I started getting 14 gas in ZvZ before the hatch. Unfortunately the thread got buried and forgotten. Here is a link: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=176647 I am also running a thread which attempts to compare the 11Pool with 14Hatch in defending 2rax plays. There has been a lot of discussion regarding the best defense against 2rax, and also how this build responds to early pressure. There was no actual data on either of these things, so I have been doing some amateur testing, but there aren't many high-level Terran's willing to practice. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=176945 | ||
|
MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On December 16 2010 02:23 jacobman wrote: the 13P15H was just my response to this threads claim that the 11P18H was the best pool first build. That's all. Also my tests are just meant to look at economic potential. I'm not claiming any of the builds are THE build that every zerg should be using. It's just data man. so is this entire thread just to show that 11overpool 18hatch is the most economic pool no gas=>expo build? i thought we were talking about if it was most economical zerg build in the game just reading the title here "The new Zerg standard for all match-ups?" makes it sound like u wanna compete with a hatchfirst build in econ | ||
|
jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On December 16 2010 02:28 MorroW wrote: so is this entire thread just to show that 11overpool 18hatch is the most economic pool no gas=>expo build? i thought we were talking about if it was most economical zerg build in the game just reading the title here "The new Zerg standard for all match-ups?" makes it sound like u wanna compete with a hatchfirst build in econ econ alone isn't what makes a build standard. This build has many significant advantages which are listed in detail in the OP with several replays. Also please check my previous post and the links provided. | ||
|
stk01001
United States786 Posts
On December 16 2010 02:28 MorroW wrote: so is this entire thread just to show that 11overpool 18hatch is the most economic pool no gas=>expo build? i thought we were talking about if it was most economical zerg build in the game just reading the title here "The new Zerg standard for all match-ups?" makes it sound like u wanna compete with a hatchfirst build in econ I'm very skeptical just like yourself... I really can't see how going 11 pool can be the best "economical" build for zerg.. I think the sentiment is that it's even better economically than going hatch first which sounds crazy to me (If I'm wrong i apologize). I don't care what someone's "statistics" say.. I will never use an 11 pool as my "standard" build.. NEVER (and I can almost guarantee it won't become standard in high level play).. it just doesn't feel right.. | ||
| ||
