* amateurs are not pros, so if you do not have the micro to defend a rush using drones only, you are way better off with an earlier pool build. The worse you are mechanically, the safer and more flexible builds you need, because you are scouting worse than a pro and you might not recognize your opponents build from peeking at the opponents mineral patch once .. Also the lower ladders are full of people executing strange cheese each game ..
* jdseemoreglasses showed that in contradiction to popular belief, an early pool/sacrificing some early larva does not have a large impact on eco in SC2 (early queen makes up for it somewhat) compared to SCBW.
* it seems like poeple overrate eco. An advantage of 100 to 200 minerals at say 6 minutes into the game is nothing. 99% of people will have this variance executing the same build twice, as they are not capable to execute the build that accurate in real games (including me ;-) ).
however i stick with early hatch first (12 hatch) except on small maps or 2v2 games ..
On December 13 2010 21:01 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: I don't know why you guys start flaming the OP ..
* amateurs are not pros, so if you do not have the micro to defend a rush using drones only, you are way better off with an earlier pool build. The worse you are mechanically, the safer and more flexible builds you need, because you are scouting worse than a pro and you might not recognize your opponents build from peeking at the opponents mineral patch once .. Also the lower ladders are full of people executing strange cheese each game ..
* jdseemoreglasses showed that in contradiction to popular belief, an early pool/sacrificing some early larva does not have a large impact on eco in SC2 (early queen makes up for it somewhat) compared to SCBW.
* it seems like poeple overrate eco. An advantage of 100 to 200 minerals at say 6 minutes into the game is nothing. 99% of people will have this variance executing the same build twice, as they are not capable to execute the build that accurate in real games (including me ;-) ).
however i stick with early hatch first (12 hatch) except on small maps or 2v2 games ..
Okay, while I agree that differences in opening builds don't seem to be necessarily game breaking, it does seem like some people are looking at the the variation in play the wrong way.
having 800 minerals in the bank +- 200 minerals due to variation is still worse than having 1000 minerals in the bank +- 200 minerals . You're still 200 minerals behind on your best day and 200 minerals behind on your worst day.
Most people aren't going to lose or win based off of what pool hatch combination they opened with, but it does affect the game. The way I see it is if other people have done the work for you, you might as well try the type of build that you like that leaves you with a few spare minerals compared to other builds that are like the one you chose.
I was using 12 pool because you do not sit on 3 larva, but 11 pool is better, it delays the larva after pool but faster zerglings means faster hatch if they go for the block and faster larva from queen also.
So, i go for: 10 Extractor trick 11 Overlord 11 Spawning Pool 16 Queen 18 Extractor 17 Zergling 18 Overlord 18 Hatchery 20 Overlord 20 Metabolic boost then take 2 off gas
I do not drone scout, my first 2 lings take out any scout or block very fast so there is verry little delay possible for the hatchery. I scout with my 2 lings and if i see 2 rax i go back and make lings with the larva from queen, when 2 rax hit, around 4:30 i have 10 lings 1 queen and 18 drones with expansion almost done and speed on the way.
The fact that there is no way to delay my hatch i think makes this the best econ build for pool first. Maybe 13Pool or some other have in theory a better econ but when you want to go 13 pool 15 hatch and it gets blocked i think you are way behind 11pool, why risk it?
I do also love 15 or 14 hatch with spine as soon as natural is up.
PS: I want to give a big "Thank YOU!" to Lomilar and jdseemoreglass for 11pool and to SCBuildorder and Haploid (sc2calc) - 2 very nice apps that helped me to fine tune my BO.
On December 14 2010 03:29 icezar wrote: The fact that there is no way to delay my hatch i think makes this the best econ build for pool first. Maybe 13Pool or some other have in theory a better econ but when you want to go 13 pool 15 hatch and it gets blocked i think you are way behind 11pool, why risk it?
13p15h puts the hatch down faster than 11p, so you can't really say the 15h is going to be blocked if the 18h wouldn't be. The 13pool isn't that much later than the 11pool, and 13pool never blocks larvae. Without the hatcheries going down, 13p might be *slightly* behind 11p, but definitely not "way behind". Hell, it might even be slightly ahead.
Hmm. Unless you're talking about those first lings being able to clear any block of the 18 hatch, but adding all that extra stuff (lings, extractor, an extra overlord before hatch) is delaying your hatch a *lot*.
On December 14 2010 03:29 icezar wrote: The fact that there is no way to delay my hatch i think makes this the best econ build for pool first. Maybe 13Pool or some other have in theory a better econ but when you want to go 13 pool 15 hatch and it gets blocked i think you are way behind 11pool, why risk it?
13p15h puts the hatch down faster than 11p, so you can't really say the 15h is going to be blocked if the 18h wouldn't be. The 13pool isn't that much later than the 11pool, and 13pool never blocks larvae. Without the hatcheries going down, 13p might be *slightly* behind 11p, but definitely not "way behind". Hell, it might even be slightly ahead.
Hmm. Unless you're talking about those first lings being able to clear any block of the 18 hatch, but adding all that extra stuff (lings, extractor, an extra overlord before hatch) is delaying your hatch a *lot*.
He is talking about using the lings to kill the scout/block.
i believe i have found a build that modifies this slightly to get an even greater economic advantage your build sits on 3 larva for quiet an amount of time... i found a way to squeeze out a bit more econ (for free) at the very early stages of your build
i noticed that the main thing you want to avoid is not sitting at 3 larva because when that happens you are "wasting larva respawn time". also you want to get the pool/queen ASAP because the faster queen gives you "more larva"
so heres how i edited the build to reduce the amount of time you sit at 3 larva, and make you get a slightly faster queen
10 extractor trick at 55 minerals (75 is needed to do the trick, so you start it at 55 and build the drone asap and it gets you that extra drone asap)
11 double extractor trick at 75 minerals (100 is needed to do the trick, so you start it at 75 and build the drone asap and it gets you that extra drone asap)
12 spawning pool (when you extractor trick you lose 6 minerals and slight mining time. so by tricking 3 times you lose 18 minerals and some mining time but you get to spend all your larva on drones which exponentially keep mining and give more economy than building the 11overlord of the previous build. also by skipping the overlord you get a faster pool plus more drones than the previous build)
11overlord (the only time whatsoever that this build "sits on 3 larva" is between the pool and overlord, and you only sit on 3 larva for about 5 seconds. so this build lets you get a faster pool, an extra drone, and you arent sitting on 3 larva for any longer than 5 seconds)
11 double extractor trick at 75 minerals (100 is needed to do the trick, so you start it at 75 and build the drone asap and it gets you that extra drone asap) (the reason you want to do this is because the overlord takes 25 seconds and a larva spawns 15 seconds after you build the overlord, meaning if you DONT trick out a drone you will sit on 3 larva for 10 seconds wasting 10 seconds of larva time which means you lose 66% of a larva. But if you trick out a drone you will be able to do it a few seconds after starting the overlord which will make it so you dont sit on 3 larva which means you are gaining 66% of a larva for the cost of essentially 20 minerals. its worth it)
DRONE UP TO 16
16queen
this build is pretty much just like yours but it does actually give you a slightly stronger economy by giving more larva, more drones earlier, faster queen. in order to maximize your early game power as zerg you wanna sit on 3 larva for the shortest amount of time possible and get out extra larva production and drones early as fast as possible, and this build does it slightly better than your build
here is a replay against a 2300 diamond terran showing the build up to building the first queen. in the replay i do the build up to making the queen
THE REPLAY ONLY SHOWS HOW THE BUILD IS DONE up to the first queen.
IN THE REPLAY i was not testing a econ build, instead i wanted to see if this type of build can make 1base roach viable to i tried making roaches. i conclude that even though i won the game in the replay that roaches are not viable because by skipping the hatchery my opponent was able to have more production than me and my opponent was able to pump workers while i couldnt pump as much workers as i needed to focus on roaches
THE REPLAY only shows how do to the build up to 18food. After that you want to build a expansion hatchery instead of a roach warren. In the replay i made a roach warren instead of an expansion and i have concluded that is a bad thing to do and its much better to expand after making the queen.
THE ONLY PURPOSE OF THE REPLAY is to show that this build is exactly like yours but superior up to 18food. After 18food its better to expand (but in the replay i made roaches, which is a bad idea)
once again the replay just shows how in the first few minutes going 12pool will give a small FREE BOOST to your economy and you sacrifice nothing.
just letting everyone know this version of the build is slightly better than 11pool
by going 12pool you get the pool slightly faster (because you dont have to get the overlord) and you do that while also getting an extra drone (with the faster pool) this is purely better in every way as you are getting free economy. also with 12pool you reduce the amount of time you sit on 3 larva which means the build produces 1-2 more larva than 11/18 and it does this for free
I dont have the time to read the whole thread, but alot of the discussion seems to go around whether the 11 pool build does better against early aggression without taking a big economic hit. is there actually any proof (replays of high level games, and by high level i dont mean a random diamond replay)? Many people have been critizing the OP because he almost seems scared that he might be proven wrong, and tries everything to discredit his critics, and this is the impression i have gotten aswell. So please, dear op, try to be more open to critisism, especially when you try to set new "standard" for Zerg opening BOs...
The thing is, this BO might even work quite well a couple of times against someone, until he figures out how to adapt to it (especially in ZvT against 2 rax, i think many terrans will be taken by surprise by the BO and then play very suboptimal). But if you wanna set a new standard, it cannot be something that relies on your opponent not knowing how to react accordingly.
I might be wrong with my judgement, but i think its good to stay very skeptical until something proves to be effective in practise and in matches where it actually matters.
edit: another thing i noticed: people said that resources are very tight at the beginning with the 11 pool BO, which means, if you need to take early gas (which you have to in actual gameplay) or build at least 4 lings to kill their scout/scout yourself at the beginning you might actually then lack resources to pump drones. Compared to the 15h 14p build which i use, the 11p seems to suffer more.
I personally neither have the motivation to commit the time nor do i know what a good method is, but i think it would be good to test a BO like 15hatch 14pool 14 gas (or 17 gas, depends on map what i prefer) against the 11p 18 hatch and then take the gas at the same time in the 11p BO and also build a few lings at the beginning (like you have to do in a normal game). then you do your fancy graph thing with eco etc. again and also compare whether you can invest energy into a creep tumor early on in the 11 pool BO and whether the hatchery is up in time to build a spine crawler against hellion harras on maps with a choke at the natural. these are all factors where my intuition tells me that the 15 hatch builds do better at, but none of them is shown in your shiny graphs, but in a real game, they can matter way more than a few minerals.
DarKFoRcE should know But may be you can play it at least a couple of times, so you can share your thoughts about it? You said, pros need to play to judge. So, please, go on
i believe i have found a build that modifies this slightly to get an even greater economic advantage your build sits on 3 larva for quiet an amount of time... i found a way to squeeze out a bit more econ (for free) at the very early stages of your build
i noticed that the main thing you want to avoid is not sitting at 3 larva because when that happens you are "wasting larva respawn time". also you want to get the pool/queen ASAP because the faster queen gives you "more larva"
so heres how i edited the build to reduce the amount of time you sit at 3 larva, and make you get a slightly faster queen
10 extractor trick at 55 minerals (75 is needed to do the trick, so you start it at 55 and build the drone asap and it gets you that extra drone asap)
11 double extractor trick at 75 minerals (100 is needed to do the trick, so you start it at 75 and build the drone asap and it gets you that extra drone asap)
12 spawning pool (when you extractor trick you lose 6 minerals and slight mining time. so by tricking 3 times you lose 18 minerals and some mining time but you get to spend all your larva on drones which exponentially keep mining and give more economy than building the 11overlord of the previous build. also by skipping the overlord you get a faster pool plus more drones than the previous build)
11overlord (the only time whatsoever that this build "sits on 3 larva" is between the pool and overlord, and you only sit on 3 larva for about 5 seconds. so this build lets you get a faster pool, an extra drone, and you arent sitting on 3 larva for any longer than 5 seconds)
11 double extractor trick at 75 minerals (100 is needed to do the trick, so you start it at 75 and build the drone asap and it gets you that extra drone asap) (the reason you want to do this is because the overlord takes 25 seconds and a larva spawns 15 seconds after you build the overlord, meaning if you DONT trick out a drone you will sit on 3 larva for 10 seconds wasting 10 seconds of larva time which means you lose 66% of a larva. But if you trick out a drone you will be able to do it a few seconds after starting the overlord which will make it so you dont sit on 3 larva which means you are gaining 66% of a larva for the cost of essentially 20 minerals. its worth it)
DRONE UP TO 16
16queen
this build is pretty much just like yours but it does actually give you a slightly stronger economy by giving more larva, more drones earlier, faster queen. in order to maximize your early game power as zerg you wanna sit on 3 larva for the shortest amount of time possible and get out extra larva production and drones early as fast as possible, and this build does it slightly better than your build
here is a replay against a 2300 diamond terran showing the build up to building the first queen. in the replay i do the build up to making the queen
THE REPLAY ONLY SHOWS HOW THE BUILD IS DONE up to the first queen.
IN THE REPLAY i was not testing a econ build, instead i wanted to see if this type of build can make 1base roach viable to i tried making roaches. i conclude that even though i won the game in the replay that roaches are not viable because by skipping the hatchery my opponent was able to have more production than me and my opponent was able to pump workers while i couldnt pump as much workers as i needed to focus on roaches
THE REPLAY only shows how do to the build up to 18food. After that you want to build a expansion hatchery instead of a roach warren. In the replay i made a roach warren instead of an expansion and i have concluded that is a bad thing to do and its much better to expand after making the queen.
THE ONLY PURPOSE OF THE REPLAY is to show that this build is exactly like yours but superior up to 18food. After 18food its better to expand (but in the replay i made roaches, which is a bad idea)
once again the replay just shows how in the first few minutes going 12pool will give a small FREE BOOST to your economy and you sacrifice nothing.
just letting everyone know this version of the build is slightly better than 11pool
by going 12pool you get the pool slightly faster (because you dont have to get the overlord) and you do that while also getting an extra drone (with the faster pool) this is purely better in every way as you are getting free economy. also with 12pool you reduce the amount of time you sit on 3 larva which means the build produces 1-2 more larva than 11/18 and it does this for free
IIRC, it was shown that when going for a double ET, doing both at once is better than going 11ET, then 12ET. The mining time is the same for either build, but you don't lose that extra 6 minerals by doing both at once.
I sincerly hope it's not better though. Doing 4+ tricks is just plain annoying.
On December 14 2010 04:09 DarKFoRcE wrote: I think it would be good to test a BO like 15hatch 14pool 14 gas (or 17 gas, depends on map what i prefer) against the 11p 18 hatch and then take the gas at the same time in the 11p BO and also build a few lings at the beginning (like you have to do in a normal game). then you do your fancy graph thing with eco etc. again and also compare whether you can invest energy into a creep tumor early on in the 11 pool BO and whether the hatchery is up in time to build a spine crawler against hellion harras on maps with a choke at the natural. these are all factors where my intuition tells me that the 15 hatch builds do better at, but none of them is shown in your shiny graphs, but in a real game, they can matter way more than a few minerals.
Indeed. And then the builds should really be compared to what you'll actually face from your opponent. It's pointless sacrificing economy and going 11-Overpool for, say, an early spine crawler at 3:30 if the first attack from a 2-rax marine/SCV push isn't going to hit you until 4:30. Even if the econ difference turned out to be small, it would still be unnecessary in such a situation.
It might also be interesting to test the actual difference between making the first hatchery in-base and at your natural, for both Hatch First and Pool First builds.
RE, 12 pool (With the extractor tricks) being a bit more economical than 11 overpool, when I used http://sc2calc.org/build_order/ 11 overpool actual beat the 12 pool by a little bit (3462 vs 3395). I could have done something wrong here but these are the BOs I used:
# Startup Build Delay = 3 Seconds 10 Extractor trick 11 Overlord 11 Spawning Pool 16 Queen then constant Spawn Larvae 18 Hatchery then transfer 2 Drones (21 seconds lost) 17 Overlord 18 Overlord 21 Queen 28 Overlord 36 Overlord
Many people have been critizing the OP because he almost seems scared that he might be proven wrong, and tries everything to discredit his critics, and this is the impression i have gotten aswell. So please, dear op, try to be more open to critisism, especially when you try to set new "standard" for Zerg opening BOs...
I think this is something that really needs emphasis. In this thread and others, JDSMG seems overly defensive, and even says he's losing faith in the community. Chill out, and realize that when you try to offer something up as the new standard, the onus is on you to support it. If people offer a (logical) criticism, you don't need to get upset and demand proof. Especially when you want to use flamboyant titles like "NEW ZERG STANDARD" instead of something like "new early pool build" or "solid late gas build"
If you want something to be generally accepted by the community, maybe you should actually work to earn their acceptance instead of giving out an idea and then demanding them to prove you wrong (that might be a good enough strategy to base religion on, but come on... this is Starcraft)
On December 15 2010 00:11 Warrior Madness wrote: RE, 12 pool (With the extractor tricks) being a bit more economical than 11 overpool, when I used http://sc2calc.org/build_order/ 11 overpool actual beat the 12 pool by a little bit (3462 vs 3395). I could have done something wrong here but these are the BOs I used:
If you can post a replay demonstrating a 12pool being superior to the posted 11 pool replays, that's another story, but my own testing showed 12 pool being inferior in just about every way.
Many people have been critizing the OP because he almost seems scared that he might be proven wrong, and tries everything to discredit his critics, and this is the impression i have gotten aswell. So please, dear op, try to be more open to critisism, especially when you try to set new "standard" for Zerg opening BOs...
I think this is something that really needs emphasis. In this thread and others, JDSMG seems overly defensive, and even says he's losing faith in the community. Chill out, and realize that when you try to offer something up as the new standard, the onus is on you to support it. If people offer a (logical) criticism, you don't need to get upset and demand proof. Especially when you want to use flamboyant titles like "NEW ZERG STANDARD" instead of something like "new early pool build" or "solid late gas build"
If you want something to be generally accepted by the community, maybe you should actually work to earn their acceptance instead of giving out an idea and then demanding them to prove you wrong (that might be a good enough strategy to base religion on, but come on... this is Starcraft)
This is true. The OP's tone and unwillingness to give credence to the efforts of others has ticked off a lot of people in this thread. That said, he's finally accepted that 11 overpool does make economic sacrifices, so at least he's correct now.
Many people have been critizing the OP because he almost seems scared that he might be proven wrong, and tries everything to discredit his critics, and this is the impression i have gotten aswell. So please, dear op, try to be more open to critisism, especially when you try to set new "standard" for Zerg opening BOs...
I think this is something that really needs emphasis. In this thread and others, JDSMG seems overly defensive, and even says he's losing faith in the community. Chill out, and realize that when you try to offer something up as the new standard, the onus is on you to support it. If people offer a (logical) criticism, you don't need to get upset and demand proof. Especially when you want to use flamboyant titles like "NEW ZERG STANDARD" instead of something like "new early pool build" or "solid late gas build"
If you want something to be generally accepted by the community, maybe you should actually work to earn their acceptance instead of giving out an idea and then demanding them to prove you wrong (that might be a good enough strategy to base religion on, but come on... this is Starcraft)
This is true. The OP's tone and unwillingness to give credence to the efforts of others has ticked off a lot of people in this thread. That said, he's finally accepted that 11 overpool does make economic sacrifices, so at least he's correct now.
Time to let it go.
You came back and found this thread which had already dropped to the second page since yesterday just to criticize me one more time?
My unwillingness to accept irrational and unsupported claims is clearly not the problem here.
I don't understand why so many people are posting to adress the OP directly. Can't that be done in a private message instead of cluttering the thread? Why are you guys so offended by what the TC says, you act like he's insulted you personally.
What I want to see (especially from the naysayers) is this build falling to early pressure or being severely economically stunted as a result of holding. Has anything like that been presented yet?
Harbinger - It is because he is directly addressing us and he has insulted several people personally, including the professional starcraft gamers. His exact words from another thread in regards to defending 2 racks with hatch first (As per pro suggestion): "It's like the pros played a practical joke on us" and there's more than just that one. Like Darkforce said, he refuses to be openminded about any other build and refuses to believe that anyone other than himself is right.
Go through this thread, I was a huge supporter of the build and posted a bunch of replays supporting it. I am very interested in the idea of the build (and I still am) but everyone needs to keep an open mind about it and be objective. I too would love to see 14 Hatch/14pool compared when it comes to defending early pressure.
Many people have been critizing the OP because he almost seems scared that he might be proven wrong, and tries everything to discredit his critics, and this is the impression i have gotten aswell. So please, dear op, try to be more open to critisism, especially when you try to set new "standard" for Zerg opening BOs...
I think this is something that really needs emphasis. In this thread and others, JDSMG seems overly defensive, and even says he's losing faith in the community. Chill out, and realize that when you try to offer something up as the new standard, the onus is on you to support it. If people offer a (logical) criticism, you don't need to get upset and demand proof. Especially when you want to use flamboyant titles like "NEW ZERG STANDARD" instead of something like "new early pool build" or "solid late gas build"
If you want something to be generally accepted by the community, maybe you should actually work to earn their acceptance instead of giving out an idea and then demanding them to prove you wrong (that might be a good enough strategy to base religion on, but come on... this is Starcraft)
This is true. The OP's tone and unwillingness to give credence to the efforts of others has ticked off a lot of people in this thread. That said, he's finally accepted that 11 overpool does make economic sacrifices, so at least he's correct now.
Time to let it go.
You came back and found this thread which had already dropped to the second page since yesterday just to criticize me one more time?
My unwillingness to accept irrational and unsupported claims is clearly not the problem here.
hey, it took you just 40 pages to admit a pretty simple fact that was mentioned very often and even explained in detail. still don't see any problem why this thread is totally derailed and your connection with it? btw this post of you is one of those example where you act irrational and unwilling to accept simple facts.
Did already someone coined a name for this build template? I mean, "11P18H" does not sound too memorable. My proposals would be "OP build" where OP actually stands for Overpool, not for overpowered (however the pun is intended) or more specific "11OP". Probably someone (JDSMG?) has way better proposals.
The simple fact that so many of you have more against jdseemoreglass then the BO means that it is a good BO :D. Only time will tell if this will become the standard on not.
EPT
But may be you can play it at least a couple of times, so you can share your thoughts about it? You said, pros need to play to judge. So, please, go on 
