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I think i seriously must be doing something wrong. I lose probably 90% of my ZvZs. I have no trouble with protoss or terran but I have absolutely NO IDEA what to do in ZvZ. I don't know when to FE, how to defend FE, how to do an all in properly. I feel like even when I win it was a poor win. I just flat out suck at ZvZ and I need to get better. I am going to post a bunch of replays and if anyone can find a recurring theme as to why I suck so much that would be absolutely amazing. You can be critical I am not a little baby that cannot handle it.
I have analyzed every replay and the ideas as to what I could do better don't seem like enough. I am sick of the rock/paper/scissor or build orders that is ZvZ and I need to know what I am doing wrong. Because whenever I throw out rock, my opponent has paper and I never have scissors to retort with.
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I think the only times I win, having gone back over these, is doing some gay roach all in. And even then sometimes its barely a win.
Immediately after posting this I went and played again. Guess what! ZvZ loss :/
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I absolutely know what you are talking about. It's like I just can't win a single ZvZ but but ZvT and ZvP are pretty much auto-win. I don't have the time to watch any replays now and I think I couldn't help anyway, since it's such a hard matchup for me, too. But what I can do for you is post some replays of one of my Zerg friends crushing me. It's like he pwns me 100% of the time, I cannot win. Ironically he sucks balls at ZvT and ZvP.
I think ZvZ is just about Build Orders and one base play. I have never won doing FE against a Zerg player, but I always try cause I'm addicted to fast expansions :S
Anyway, here's the replay
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/109039-2v2-zerg-lost-temple
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im the same ZvZ is such a nightmere in the early game especialy there dosnt seam to be a stable, safe build. I normally have no idea to react to what the other zerg is doing. I suppose i am tasting my own medicine here :-(
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a good way to learn is to download replays of high level zvzs. dimaga, sen, idra. look through their cam and examine what they do, why they might be doing it, etc.. Then that also will give you maybe a better understanding into your own replays as well. I'm sure people here will watch them and help too, but just so you can help yourself even more.
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I'm on the other side of this fence. I find ZvZ very easy to win. I usually set up some early ling pressure to see what they're going to do. If they go lings, I go banelings and if they go roach I do the same. The key to this is to put enough pressure on them to force more roaches than they need. By the time they've made so many roaches.. you have mutas. It always seems to play out this way for me ~2k diamond Z
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i actually used to be a random player who chose zerg when he wanted some stability, but i got so sick of ZvZ that i decided to switch to protoss. it just seems like every ZvZ i have ever played was won by either a six pool, mass roaches, or fastest mutas first.
i believe it was IdrA who tweeted "anyone know how to ZvZ?"
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On November 26 2010 02:45 Trevoc wrote:
I'm on the other side of this fence. I find ZvZ very easy to win. I usually set up some early ling pressure to see what they're going to do. If they go lings, I go banelings and if they go roach I do the same. The key to this is to put enough pressure on them to force more roaches than they need. By the time they've made so many roaches.. you have mutas. It always seems to play out this way for me ~2k diamond Z
This sounds plausible. I feel as though I am always the one under pressure never the one putting it on. But how do you deal with huge counterattacks with roaches?
The blistering sands replay I posed of myself winning, was me under pressure after going roaches, him teching mutas, me teching burrow, speed and burow movement and me winning because he could not kill my shit fast enough and I was killing all of his drones.
Also Roach/Hydra/Infestor is very strong against mutalisks. Or do your games not go so far?
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Map plays a huge role on whether FE will be successful or not. For instance, Jungle Basin is a prime example of a good map to FE on nearly 100% of the time. Starting locations are far apart and natural is tucked away and easily defended from early ling/roach/bane aggression. On maps with quick rushing distances or multiple ways to attack from I stick to 1 base play. You need to scout your opponent early to see whether he goes roach or ling/baneling or even fast muta and adjust accordingly. I had a hard time with ZvZ as well for a long time because I would FE nearly every game and I just had to learn how to stick with 1 base play to match my opponent if I had to. Scouting early and often helped me improve my ZvZ to above 50%.
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I'm in the same boat but it's getting a bit better. What has i have noticed being my largest problem is scouting. In ZvP and ZvT the opponent feels alot more limited in options and also usually you have more time to prepare when they leave the base.
But the basic trend for winning seems to be getting mass roach complremented with infestors and sometimes also hydras. Early scout is important to spot any earlier pool than yours, but what is also important is to spot if opponent saves up larvae for lings when it pops.
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didn't watch reps, but i think i can give good ZvZ advice
always, on every map, do a speedling rush.
here is the BO
10 extractor (when you have around 100 minerals) [immediatly put 3 drones on when finished]
10 pool [remove 3 drones when u have 100 gas]
10 ol
@100% pool -> queen
@100% pool -> start researching ling speed
pump nonstop lings, squeeze in the next ol at 16 supply.
do not attack straight away, but gather lings in your main, trying to avoid them being scouted, and trying to stay out of enemy OL sight.
attack only after speed finishes, and keep reinforcing constantly (dedicate 100% to pumping lings and microing your lings)
why always this bo?
its the strongest ZvZ opening by far. unless you screw up, it beats everything. even if you only pull off mediocre execution, you will come out ahead. the early mobility speed gives you is ridiculously strong, and reinforcements arrive in your enemies base super fast. you can outmicro even larger numbers of enemy lings, pick off drones and run around wrecking havoc. your opponent doesnt have time to tech or do anything. he will be screwed unless he did a similar build.
i will see if i have some reps in my recent games and add them in a minute so you can visualise the strenght of this build.
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Okay I am trying to get better not just rush my opponent to death...I am asking for advice on how to improve my play. Maybe my build orders do need work but not like you are suggesting.
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I also find ZvZ very rock paper scissor.
The only safe way I've found to play is to get fast speedlings. Just as said above.
Except that I choose 13 extractor, 13 pool, and cut drones production at 16 drones.
As soon as I have 300 mineral I expend, and attack, making the expend 100% safe. I usually resume the drone production shortly after, depending of how many units the other zerg has made.
With this build I'm able to defend any earlier pool with micro. And if the other zerg expended before me, he just can't make drones and get any macro advantage ... without being far better than me.
And, it's not rushing to death the opponent, it's just applying pressure like any other races should do against a zerg.
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On November 26 2010 04:06 Elean wrote:
I also find ZvZ very rock paper scissor.
The only safe way I've found to play is to get fast speedlings. Just as said above.
Except that I choose 13 extractor, 13 pool, and cut drones production at 16 drones.
As soon as I have 300 mineral I expend, and attack, making the expend 100% safe.
With this build I'm able to defend any earlier pool with micro. And if the other zerg expended before me, he just can't make drones and get any macro advantage ... without being far better than me.
And, it's not rushing to death the opponent, it's just applying pressure. Like any other races should do against a zerg.
10OverPoolExtractorQueen is very much so rushing your opponent to death. If it fails you are behind a shit ton.
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On November 26 2010 04:11 MorsCerta wrote:
10OverPoolExtractorQueen is very much so rushing your opponent to death. If it fails you are behind a shit ton.
That's why I suggest 13 extractor 13 pool, which should not leave you behind.
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On November 26 2010 03:41 ganjazerg wrote:
didn't watch reps, but i think i can give good ZvZ advice
always, on every map, do a speedling rush.
here is the BO
10 extractor (when you have around 100 minerals) [immediatly put 3 drones on when finished]
10 pool [remove 3 drones when u have 100 gas]
10 ol
@100% pool -> queen
@100% pool -> start researching ling speed
pump nonstop lings, squeeze in the next ol at 16 supply.
do not attack straight away, but gather lings in your main, trying to avoid them being scouted, and trying to stay out of enemy OL sight.
attack only after speed finishes, and keep reinforcing constantly (dedicate 100% to pumping lings and microing your lings)
why always this bo?
its the strongest ZvZ opening by far. unless you screw up, it beats everything. even if you only pull off mediocre execution, you will come out ahead. the early mobility speed gives you is ridiculously strong, and reinforcements arrive in your enemies base super fast. you can outmicro even larger numbers of enemy lings, pick off drones and run around wrecking havoc. your opponent doesnt have time to tech or do anything. he will be screwed unless he did a similar build.
i will see if i have some reps in my recent games and add them in a minute so you can visualise the strenght of this build.
i think 10pool/10gas is better for speedling opening. make 8 lings, get lingspeed, then put your gas drones back on minerals. go attack with your first 6 + 2 more that catch up and make DRONES at home. a lot of times your opponet will overreact. get your queen after your 2nd OL and expand, deny scouting with your speedlings, and transition into roaches or roach/hydra if he goes 1 base muta. you attack with your first few lings because if your opponet went for a blind 15 hatch (common on a lot of maps lately) you can basically kill him outright with a steady stream of lings, and if he went for a later pool, all you have to do is kill 2-3 drones and you are even or ahead in worker count (as long as you were making drones at home while you harass), + you have map control and speedlings.
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I'm with you OP. Just got to ~1700 yesterday, and I roll over terran, and even vs protoss (used to have trouble vs them) I can hold my own, but when I see a zerg opponent I feel like I should just say gg and quit at the start. Again, as you said, the only time I win is with mass roach and mixing in hydra/infestor, but it seems I barely win when I do.
To the poster who said mass speedling to muta: Do you ever encounter someone who plays hydra/infestor? Mutas are about the only strat I seem to win against in ZvZ because my fast infestor/hydra shuts it down so hard, but almost nobody does mutas anymore. The exception is on Shakuras where a slow ground army just isn't that hot (and yes, I spread creep a LOT).
I've tried the speed/bane thing, and although I'm decent at micro, I hate the baneling wars, so I'm really hoping someone has a viable alternative.
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I go 12 pool, 11 extractor, except on long rush distances when I'll go 13 pool 12 extractor. This is safe against any earlier pool. I'll get speed as soon as I have 100 gas, then pull drones off gas to mine. Cut drone production at 15 or 16, mass lings and attack when speed finishes. Expand when I attack. This beats everything but the same build, and if you're met with mass ling, get a handful of banelings and go defensive. Tech to roaches. Get upgrades early and often. Scout for mutas, if you see a spire get hydra den and a couple infestors. Push when you're 1/1 on upgrades.
If you get this far, hope your upgrades are superior.
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10OverPoolExtractorQueen is very much so rushing your opponent to death. If it fails you are behind a shit ton.
no. it cannot fail. how exactly should it fail? the least damage you will do is pickoff a handful of drones and force your opponent to pump lings or plant a spine. after wich you are always ahead. if you deal so little damage that you are behind after this rush then you belong in silver league and need to learn how to benefit from an investment (speedling micro).
i think 10pool/10gas is better for speedling opening. make 8 lings, get lingspeed, then put your gas drones back on minerals. go attack with your first 6 + 2 more that catch up and make DRONES at home. a lot of times your opponet will overreact. get your queen after your 2nd OL and expand, deny scouting with your speedlings, and transition into roaches or roach/hydra if he goes 1 base muta. you attack with your first few lings because if your opponet went for a blind 15 hatch (common on a lot of maps lately) you can basically kill him outright with a steady stream of lings, and if he went for a later pool, all you have to do is kill 2-3 drones and you are even or ahead in worker count (as long as you were making drones at home while you harass), + you have map control and speedlings.
why would you make pool before extractor? the point of the speedling rush is to have speedlings asap. if you plant your pool before the extractor you are doing it wrong and might aswell just 8pool without the speed.
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~2500zerg
i feel/felt the same about zvz -its pretty hard. try to use 1 or 2 build of the standard builds (which i ll explain) and practice em. u need to know timing and u need to know which attack wins and which not.
1. speedling or speedling/bane opening
2. 1base roach into lair into 2base roach
3. 2base ling or roach
4. 1base muta ling
5. weird early rush with or without bane.
personally i think 14hatch openings can be risky. so dont do it or practice it hard 
and do it only on lt shakur and maybe meta.
so i think ling or roach opening works best.
1. ling bane opening:
14gas 14pool (or 13dont care) 15ovi queen speed lings- then banenest .
scout with your first 4-6lings and try to get a ling in the main and see if he goes roach or ling/bane or fasttech.
if he goes roach-cancel banelingnest and get a roach warren. make like 4-6more drones and make raoches by yourself. your initial lings give u mapcontrol!!! so u can get some roaches lair gas- make +1 range and speed and then get expo. scout for mutas with overseer. transition into raoch ifester +maybe hydra. upgrades......
2. roaches
14pool 14gas 15ovi queen 6-8lings roach warren ->roaches. (look for a exact build by yourself^^) but u get like 5roaches @ramp. get some more drones lair 2nd gas speed +1 masss raoches and exe
3. 14hach 14pool .
when pool is done get 2queens 2spines and make lings to def. position queens at ramp to block. scout if he goes ling all in or drones 2 base too. ->2base roach with maybe double evo + inf
4. 1base muta ling
14gas 14pool. make lings to defend -make (2-10000000^^) spines to def whatever he thorws at u. get drones tech mutas. get mapcontrol and expand. go roach after u got your 5-8 mutas.
5. rush
try 7pool with spines
9pool
10pool
10gas 10pool baneling rush
these are basic ideas. so: lings give u mapcontrol vs roach. he cant really push out. if he does u can make spines units and/or run inot his base. on big maps pretty nice.
then u can drone up maybe a little more than him and get roaches.
always get 1-2 oversser to scout for spire or other dangerous things. use him to shut down his larva injects.
get upgrades.
basically 80% of zvzs are roach vs roach. practice builds watch reps -practice ...if you have more qustions look @ teamliquid forums or ask me addiction.802 @eu
gl
i ll watch a rep sooner or laer and tell you what i think
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I know that hydra infestors shuts down muta harrass. but how to you gain map control?
muta player can just expand as much as he likes and get more stuff to beat you later on.
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On November 26 2010 05:21 Andre112 wrote:
I know that hydra infestors shuts down muta harrass. but how to you gain map control?
muta player can just expand as much as he likes and get more stuff to beat you later on.
get enough spores/queens and push out, he will loose more mutas if he try to attack your base and will not have enough to defend his own base.
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mass ling bling works pretty often for me at least. but it is very all in
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going 14gas 13pool (unless scount sees an early pool than it's pool asap and no gas to overpower initial lings) into speedlings and only adding blings/roaches/expo depedning on the situation won me 80% of my games some weeks ago at 1.8k. it took me maybe 25games in a row to get good at the mirco, than it got easier and easier.
now i'm playing lots of random and I lost many points. Whenever I random zerg it's usually a stomp so i'm not taking my current ZvZ into account
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hmm i feel that because you are againsed some1 who has the same reactonary and kinda passive race so you in ZvZ i think it would be best to try and harras and put on pressure. Also the drone timing is kinda messed up because its hard to read a zerg opponent.
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On November 26 2010 06:10 BleaK_ wrote:
get enough spores/queens and push out, he will loose more mutas if he try to attack your base and will not have enough to defend his own base.
If you go roach/hydra you need high hydra numbers in your army because if you lose then you automatically lose everything else to mutas. however hydras are very weak to banelings. typically villain will have a baneling nest and a ton of speedlings ready - you have a small timing window to attack (before his 3rd kicks in) and you have to hope he wont be able to get enough banelings in time. For these reasons so far ive found very very hard to win if I get behind in the muta count and Ive been able to pull it off only on very short rush distances (i.e. close positions on 4player maps). People complain zvz is BO roshambo, I think early game is actually the interesting part - after that you just need mutas, mutas, and more mutas or youll lose.
edit: conversely if I see someone go roach hydra I just take the free win.
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I used to have the same problem with ZvZ being rock, paper, scissors. Recently, I've been going 1 base Muta into Roach Hydra, and it seems to be the most stable of all the openers I've tried. Credit to CaTz.root, I picked up this build from watching his stream.
-13gas
-13pool
-Speed with first 100 gas
-Second gas at ~21
-Spine Crawler and Tumor with your first Queen, block the ramp with your Queen and have the spine crawler sitting behind it, this prevents most early Baneling/Speedling/Roach rushes
-Second Queen
-Lair with your next 100 gas
-Speedling production can vary based on what you scout and how much initial pressure you want to put on, I've won a few games outright with a few extra rounds of Speedlings against players who try to fast expand with only Roaches defending
-Spire, and stockpile gas and supply for Mutas, once Spire pops you should have extra minerals floating to expand behind your Mutas.
-Use Mutas to gain map control, then tech to whatever you want while saturating your expo
Only maps this doesn't seem to work on are Blistering Sands due to the backdoor rocks, and Scrap Station, as it takes way too much to block your ramp against any kind of rush.
~2k diamond
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I use the opening tlo did v sen at blizzcon:
10/10 double extractor trick
12/10 spawning pool
11/10 overlord
11/10 double extractor trick .
Make 6 lingoes and a queen when the pool is done, the drone up.
You will kill at least 1 drone hopefully, and force your opponent to get lingoes instead of drones.
Zvz is all about scouting though, so either go a safe roach build, or get speedlings asap. I really like +1 roach builds into expos. Mass +1 lings are also very viable. Also very good v 6 pools.
The tip above about the spine crawler is very good though. I saw ogsthewind do it in his gsl match
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I thought zerg vs zerg is simplest. Go 1 base go for roaches. if your opponent expands punish him. Try to sneak in a spire, then once you feel secure expand.
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This thread is going to help me a lot too, I dont have time to read it right now so Im going to post this msg to remind me to come back later.
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Everyone gives such different advice :/
I guess I'll have to try out everything and see what I like best
No one really has anything to say about the replays though? Nothing horribly wrong with my play? Any advice? I don't care if you watched all of them or not but something.
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On November 27 2010 03:13 MorsCerta wrote:
Everyone gives such different advice :/
I guess I'll have to try out everything and see what I like best
No one really has anything to say about the replays though? Nothing horribly wrong with my play? Any advice? I don't care if you watched all of them or not but something.
I plan to, but its thanksgiving weekend here in the US. so its a bit hectic =p.
But for what its worth, im a 600 diamond who hasnt laddered 1v1 in a while (doing lots of 2s,3s,4s). I do actively keep up with major tournaments (mainly GSL but I watch also all the games). Been more active on ladder with 1s in the past week but ill try to help with some feedback.
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It seems like such a gamble to me. If I go banes they'll have gone for a stronger econ build with enough spinecrawlers to keep me away, if I go roaches they'll 6 pool me, just somehow whatever I do is exactly wrong for what the other guy happened to do.
I went through a stretch of copying what my previous opponent beat me with, and lost almost every game. At one point I was 1-19 in my last 20 games.
Then I won 7 ZvZs in a row. Why? Couldn't even tell you. It seems so hard to find a gameplan that works with any consistency.
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Yeah I know its thanksgiving I live in the US too 
And I know what your saying chocobo. It's so freaking random
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On November 29 2010 02:03 MorsCerta wrote:Yeah I know its thanksgiving I live in the US too And I know what your saying chocobo. It's so freaking random
I was able to watch your game on SP against Eros.
A few things that stood out to me:
1. Eros knew exactly what he wanted to do with his build order. He got a quick lair into expand and spire. You appeared to be more on the reactive side, just waiting to see what he was going before you react.
2. Upgrades, maybe this was because you weren't 100% sure what you wanted to go for but your attack upgrade and hydra range could have started a bit earlier.
3. Infestors earlier, if you can catch his mutas out of position and finish them off with your hydras, you would have a pretty big lead.
4. He seemed to have a clear idea of what he wanted, Lings into Mutas into hive tech, ling attack upgrades and ultras.
5. I think your scouting was really good. Maybe a few secs. earlier would be even better.
I think if you were more decisive or had a set plan in mind you would have won that game easily.
Again, im a low diamond player so I don't know if my advice is worth much but those are a few things that stood out to me.
Lately, Ive been trying the nestea build vs sen on Scrap station. His build might be map specific but im going to test it out and learn from there. He rushes with speedlings and roaches using the lings to harass the econ line and queens while using his roaches to fight off the opponents roaches or lings.
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On November 30 2010 18:57 Angelbelow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 02:03 MorsCerta wrote:Yeah I know its thanksgiving I live in the US too And I know what your saying chocobo. It's so freaking random I was able to watch your game on SP against Eros. A few things that stood out to me: 1. Eros knew exactly what he wanted to do with his build order. He got a quick lair into expand and spire. You appeared to be more on the reactive side, just waiting to see what he was going before you react. 2. Upgrades, maybe this was because you weren't 100% sure what you wanted to go for but your attack upgrade and hydra range could have started a bit earlier. 3. Infestors earlier, if you can catch his mutas out of position and finish them off with your hydras, you would have a pretty big lead. 4. He seemed to have a clear idea of what he wanted, Lings into Mutas into hive tech, ling attack upgrades and ultras. 5. I think your scouting was really good. Maybe a few secs. earlier would be even better. I think if you were more decisive or had a set plan in mind you would have won that game easily. Again, im a low diamond player so I don't know if my advice is worth much but those are a few things that stood out to me. Lately, Ive been trying the nestea build vs sen on Scrap station. His build might be map specific but im going to test it out and learn from there. He rushes with speedlings and roaches using the lings to harass the econ line and queens while using his roaches to fight off the opponents roaches or lings.
I have rarely gone into a ZvZ with a set plan lol. I am always reacting
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Hi Unfurl, I'm HardCorey and ive just started trying to do a video series of answering questions on various threads that provide replays. I took a look at your replay and I just uploaded the video. I talked about the issues of early pressure as Zerg and a bit about how to keep yourself economically ahead when under pressure. Also talked some about about the Rock, Paper, Scissor idea for ZvZ.
HardCorey QuestionTime #7: ZvZ Rock, Paper, Scissors
My Main Thread
Hope this helps,
-HardCorey
Edit: video works great.
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2300 Zerg here. Not really a ZvZ master, but I feel like I understand the matchup very well. I win probably around 66% of ZvZs.
Here's my two cents, hopefully it can help some of you guys out:
1. The opening:
-I tend to go very fast scout in ZvZ to see what my opponent is opening with ASAP.
-If they go pool first or any one base play I do the same and try to get my pool just slightly later than they do (so that I have a slightly better economy) and will almost always go roach (if they go roach) or roach/baneling if they stick with just lings/banes.
-If they go hatch first I open with my open fast hatch or 1 base speedling/baneling (14gas 13pool) and do a very aggressive timing attack around the time ling speed finishes. This usually kills them and if it doesn't it leaves them too far behind to recover
-I think at lower levels most games are won/lost in the early game ZvZ, learning how to hold and counter your opponent's openings will allow you to get to the late game and outplay your opponent
2. Mid/Late game:
-Really, the most viable option for late game ZvZ is Roach/Infestor and maybe some hydras if they have mutas
-Upgrades are so extremely important in ZvZ. I tend to get +1 ranged attack as soon as I feel safe on 2 base (~6-8 roaches). Make sure you are continuing to upgrade throughout the game
-Scouting is key. You need to make sure you know how many units your opponent has at any given point and if they are teching to anything that might catch you offguard. Also be wary of units that may be hiding in corners of their base to surprise you
-With good scouting you can afford to drone at the right times. I try to always have just slightly less roaches than my opponent and spend the extra larvae on drones. When you see them pushing out simply make enough roaches to hold the attack and you will be in good shape
-This is a rule you should follow in all matchups but it is extremely important in ZvZ: When you are ahead DO NOT attack unless you are WAY ahead. It is much better to be safe than sorry. If you get ahead, just expand and get farther ahead. Wait for them to attack and you should crush it.
-If your opponent is not pushing out and you are both even, go for an expansion to force them to attack you
General Rules for ZvZ:
-Make sure you have overlords spread out across the map so you can see when your opponent's units are at all times and constantly be watching the minimap. Overlord speed is a great late game upgrade to get
-ZvZ is, in my opinion, the most fragile matchup, especially early on. Making a round of drones at the wrong time could cost you the game, so always be careful not to drone too hard or to make too many units
-Supply blocks can be deadly, especially when your opponent makes a push. Always try to be at least 2 overlords ahead of what you actually need
-Try to always be just slightly ahead in economy while not being too far behind in unit count so that if your opponent pushes out you can make enough units to hold the attack
-If you find yourself in an awkward position (behind in economy but ahead in tech, behind in units but ahead in economy, etc) try to play to whatever advantages you have and play intelligently
-If you feel confident enough to push out you might want to try to go for some sort of timing pushes when upgrades complete, I have found that some of these are highly effective
-Mid/Late game ZvZ really just comes down to general starcraft tactics, just with a lot less room for error than the other matchups
Any comments/feedback welcomed.
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On November 27 2010 03:13 MorsCerta wrote:
Everyone gives such different advice :/
I guess I'll have to try out everything and see what I like best
No one really has anything to say about the replays though? Nothing horribly wrong with my play? Any advice? I don't care if you watched all of them or not but something.
I'm going to watch some of your replays when I get home and see if I can give any advice!
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On December 03 2010 09:03 Xde wrote:-If they go pool first or any one base play I do the same and try to get my pool just slightly later than they do (so that I have a slightly better economy)
You know that's only strictly true BW, right? While this gets you a dozen or so extra minerals in SC2, it also delays your larvae production because of the delayed queen. Delaying the pool is quite counterproductive for many openings.
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First replay:
At about 6:10, I think you make a big mistake -- you had managed to keep your 6 Zerglings from being utterly slaughtered (but you did lose one). Then what do you do? You turn right around and throw them away for no apparent gain.
At 7:50, you make another one. You had just scared off a Zergling army about the same size as yours, and then hatched a bunch of Zerglings to double your army size. That isn't the mistake. The mistake was that you didn't run towards his base to see if you could catch him Droning,
(Also, at this point, I feel like you don't have very scouting in the middle to keep an eye on his Zerglings)
When you finally attacked with those Zerglings at 10:00, you had to do a run by 2 spines, a queen, and 15 Zerglings, but you still did a lot of damage. Imagine how much better it would have been if you did it a minute and a half earlier when there was no static defense and fewer drones!
You made a 9 Roaches here too. I think this is a rather poor idea for two reasons:
- In smallish numbers and in the open, Roaches do quite badly against the Zerglings you know your opponent has
- You need Hydralisks to ward off the Mutas you know he's building
At 20:00, the flaw with your army composition is made evident -- your Hydralisks are simply crushed by his Mutaling.
Also, I think there were problems with your engagement -- the most important thing in this battle is to keep your Hydralisks alive. However, they got separated from the Roaches letting some Zerglings attack, and I think your Fungal growths would have been better spent on the Zerglings that were going for your Hydralisks.
When it comes down to it, I think if you want to go Roach/Hydra/Infestor against Mutaling, you really have to turtle until you have a very powerful ball of units, and what you attacked with wasn't particularly intimidating.
It didn't help that you were low on Drones through most of the middle game. (But, of course, I understand that you could have been run over if you didn't make them. It's a hard position)
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I know someone's already plugged my ZvZ with Machine VOD....
Just in case, though, here's a link to it on Blip: http://mrbitter.blip.tv/file/4446975/
This is, hands down, the most thorough analysis of ZvZ in its current form that there is. Watch it, please.
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Now I'll look at the ZvZ LT win.
At 1:45, I think you overdid attacking the scouting Drone -- too many units, and you didn't wait for it to get close enough.
At 4:15, I think your Spine + 2 Zergling attack was ill-advised. Wasting units is very, very dangerous in a Zergling vs Zergling battle.
At 5:45, when you hatch a decent Zergling army, you went to attack. That's good! But splitting into two groups and using force-move was bad -- you got your lings into a bad position and gave him a lot of free hits. But you escaped so it's not so big a deal...
But then you turn back in?!?! You lost 6 more Zerglings. Again, very dangerous. Do you think the scouting info was really worth it?
At 7:00, you decide to attack with your 8 Zerglings and 4 Roaches against 22 Zerglings. You killed 6. Attacking when you're so outnumbered like that is again dangerous! If you just retreated and blocked your ramp and waited for the next 7 Roaches, you might have even killed him right there.
But in the end, he doesn't turtle hard enough and your Roaches break the front line, essentially winning the game.
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This may be really noobie, and if it is, I'm sorry.
I'm a very low rated diamond zerg, but for ZvZ, I'm a one-trick pony. Fortunately it wins me about 90% of ZvZs.
The strategy?
Muta rush.
I open with 14 pool, 13 gas. Second gas at 17. Queen when pool finishes, put a creep tumor near entrance of base, then spawn larvae. Lair at 100gas, Spire after lair. When I have the spare minerals, I place spine crawlers. First 2 go around my hatchery (preventing ling harass). Then by the time the spire is done, I have about 5 or 6 spine crawlers (4 at my entrance to hinder harassment and 2 near my hatchery). I stop drone production at 50% spire, and save up. By the time the spire is done, I have 8 mutas hatching and they get to the other base at around 8:00. If they have spore crawlers, camp their entrance, because you now have full map control. Keep pumping mutas and now is when you upgrade ling speed and get your expansion.
Your opponent has no choice but to get hydras and/or mutas, and luckily for you, mass muta/ling > hydras and you will always have more mutas than your opponent. Upgrade too. Air armor if you see your opponent getting mutas, or air attack if you see your opponent getting hydras.
I have been able to beat speedling rushes and roach rushes and baneling rushes with this strategy.
Honestly, I treat ZvZ similarly to BW ZvZ (not exactly the same)
Hope this helps!
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On December 03 2010 10:22 Hurkyl wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 09:03 Xde wrote:-If they go pool first or any one base play I do the same and try to get my pool just slightly later than they do (so that I have a slightly better economy) You know that's only strictly true BW, right? While this gets you a dozen or so extra minerals in SC2, it also delays your larvae production because of the delayed queen. Delaying the pool is quite counterproductive for many openings.
While that is true it does help in fending off any early aggression. I don't really delay my pool by more than 1 or 2 supply.
ie: He 10 pools and I 12 pool, I'm going to be able to hold off any rushes that much more easily because generally a slightly later pool will counter your opponent's opening.
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On December 03 2010 11:26 Neo21803 wrote:
This may be really noobie, and if it is, I'm sorry.
I'm a very low rated diamond zerg, but for ZvZ, I'm a one-trick pony. Fortunately it wins me about 90% of ZvZs.
The strategy?
Muta rush.
I open with 14 pool, 13 gas. Second gas at 17. Queen when pool finishes, put a creep tumor near entrance of base, then spawn larvae. Lair at 100gas, Spire after lair. When I have the spare minerals, I place spine crawlers. First 2 go around my hatchery (preventing ling harass). Then by the time the spire is done, I have about 5 or 6 spine crawlers (4 at my entrance to hinder harassment and 2 near my hatchery). I stop drone production at 50% spire, and save up. By the time the spire is done, I have 8 mutas hatching and they get to the other base at around 8:00. If they have spore crawlers, camp their entrance, because you now have full map control. Keep pumping mutas and now is when you upgrade ling speed and get your expansion.
Your opponent has no choice but to get hydras and/or mutas, and luckily for you, mass muta/ling > hydras and you will always have more mutas than your opponent. Upgrade too. Air armor if you see your opponent getting mutas, or air attack if you see your opponent getting hydras.
I have been able to beat speedling rushes and roach rushes and baneling rushes with this strategy.
Honestly, I treat ZvZ similarly to BW ZvZ (not exactly the same)
Hope this helps!
I've never lost to a fast rush 1 base muta in ZvZ because it's very easy to counter. First if you see the zerg completely turtle, fast lair and spine crawler, you're free to take an expo, hell maybe even a 3rd. You can drone out the ass and even go muta yourself. you may get 8 muta faster but with addtional queen + spores (not really needed) and 2x the economy I'll have exceeded the muta count shortly. This is just 1 way to counter this type of play. I won't even go into 2 base roach breaking etc. The only way this could work is if the player does a really awful 1 base roach (a well played 1 base roach could even beat this, even a fast expo ling/bane) or just doesn't scout and see youre going fast 1 base muta (not really going to happen in upper diamond.)
I have lost to normal 1 base muta play where each zerg denies the others expo's early and it's to dangerous to try and take it, but I'm pretty sure never to a 1 base muta rush. I mean its the same as any build economy vs quick aggression, I just don't think 1base muta rush is a good quick aggression type of build. If your opponent is smart his eco is going to destroy you.
I understand where youre coming from though when I was low diamond level i felt muta were key and would get them too fast but I've learned many a hard lesson.
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I have absolutely NO IDEA what to do in ZvZ. I don't know when to FE
In case it hasn't been answered... basically you can 14 hatch 15 pool on LT, Metalopolis and Shakuras
This is coming from a 2300 zerg
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On December 04 2010 04:42 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 11:26 Neo21803 wrote:
This may be really noobie, and if it is, I'm sorry.
I'm a very low rated diamond zerg, but for ZvZ, I'm a one-trick pony. Fortunately it wins me about 90% of ZvZs.
The strategy?
Muta rush.
I open with 14 pool, 13 gas. Second gas at 17. Queen when pool finishes, put a creep tumor near entrance of base, then spawn larvae. Lair at 100gas, Spire after lair. When I have the spare minerals, I place spine crawlers. First 2 go around my hatchery (preventing ling harass). Then by the time the spire is done, I have about 5 or 6 spine crawlers (4 at my entrance to hinder harassment and 2 near my hatchery). I stop drone production at 50% spire, and save up. By the time the spire is done, I have 8 mutas hatching and they get to the other base at around 8:00. If they have spore crawlers, camp their entrance, because you now have full map control. Keep pumping mutas and now is when you upgrade ling speed and get your expansion.
Your opponent has no choice but to get hydras and/or mutas, and luckily for you, mass muta/ling > hydras and you will always have more mutas than your opponent. Upgrade too. Air armor if you see your opponent getting mutas, or air attack if you see your opponent getting hydras.
I have been able to beat speedling rushes and roach rushes and baneling rushes with this strategy.
Honestly, I treat ZvZ similarly to BW ZvZ (not exactly the same)
Hope this helps! I've never lost to a fast rush 1 base muta in ZvZ because it's very easy to counter. First if you see the zerg completely turtle, fast lair and spine crawler, you're free to take an expo, hell maybe even a 3rd. You can drone out the ass and even go muta yourself. you may get 8 muta faster but with addtional queen + spores (not really needed) and 2x the economy I'll have exceeded the muta count shortly. This is just 1 way to counter this type of play. I won't even go into 2 base roach breaking etc. The only way this could work is if the player does a really awful 1 base roach (a well played 1 base roach could even beat this, even a fast expo ling/bane) or just doesn't scout and see youre going fast 1 base muta (not really going to happen in upper diamond.) I have lost to normal 1 base muta play where each zerg denies the others expo's early and it's to dangerous to try and take it, but I'm pretty sure never to a 1 base muta rush. I mean its the same as any build economy vs quick aggression, I just don't think 1base muta rush is a good quick aggression type of build. If your opponent is smart his eco is going to destroy you. I understand where youre coming from though when I was low diamond level i felt muta were key and would get them too fast but I've learned many a hard lesson.
Please tell me how to beat 1 base muta. I'm ~1700 but almost always lose to lower rating zerg becuz of muta. QQ
They usually go speelings into muta with crawler defense. If I expo and try to out macro him, I will be low on units and get ling runbys. If I make roaches to block ramp, my lair is delayed even more. I'm really lost on how to play zvz.
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On December 04 2010 07:48 kerminator wrote:In case it hasn't been answered... basically you can 14 hatch 15 pool on LT, Metalopolis and Shakuras This is coming from a 2300 zerg
Unless you scout close positions on LT and meta I am assuming.
On December 03 2010 08:24 HardCorey wrote:Hi Unfurl, I'm HardCorey and ive just started trying to do a video series of answering questions on various threads that provide replays. I took a look at your replay and I just uploaded the video. I talked about the issues of early pressure as Zerg and a bit about how to keep yourself economically ahead when under pressure. Also talked some about about the Rock, Paper, Scissor idea for ZvZ. (blip.tv)My Main ThreadHope this helps, -HardCorey Edit: Fixed the url. It just needs to finish converting.
I rather enjoyed this and found it helpful, if you did another one I would watch it. I think the shakuras game is a bad example of my issues.
I have since broken the 2K mark (2070 or something now) and have been doing better in ZvZ, but I still feel like I can't control matches unless my opponent makes a mistake, something I don't like because I find it easier to control vP and vT. Maybe thats just how ZvZ is, I'll post some more replays when I get home if I have some.
Also Bladeorade is my other account in case people were confused as I saw you were corey.
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On December 04 2010 09:52 MorsCerta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 07:48 kerminator wrote: I have absolutely NO IDEA what to do in ZvZ. I don't know when to FE In case it hasn't been answered... basically you can 14 hatch 15 pool on LT, Metalopolis and Shakuras This is coming from a 2300 zerg Unless you scout close positions on LT and meta I am assuming.
Even close positions you can get away with going hatch first.
It's not a matter of distance, but a matter of whether or not you can safely and effectively defend your hatch and your ramp with 2-4 spines and 2 queens.
You can also safely get away with hatch first on Shakuras, and can hatch first on Metalopolis and even Steppes, but doing so comes with a little more risk on those two.
Unsafe FE maps: Xel'Naga, Scrap Station, DQ... Any map with a large distance between where you'll plant the hatchery, and your ramp.
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On December 04 2010 03:15 Xde wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 10:22 Hurkyl wrote:On December 03 2010 09:03 Xde wrote:-If they go pool first or any one base play I do the same and try to get my pool just slightly later than they do (so that I have a slightly better economy) You know that's only strictly true BW, right? While this gets you a dozen or so extra minerals in SC2, it also delays your larvae production because of the delayed queen. Delaying the pool is quite counterproductive for many openings. While that is true it does help in fending off any early aggression. I don't really delay my pool by more than 1 or 2 supply. ie: He 10 pools and I 12 pool, I'm going to be able to hold off any rushes that much more easily because generally a slightly later pool will counter your opponent's opening.
What if he doesn't suicide his Zerglings ,and instead uses his larvae advantage to make one more Drone than you, while still matching your Zergling count?
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I'm totally too noob to give you any advice, so I won't! (although I know enough to appreciate this thread ^_^)
But if it makes you feel better, I hear some pros and commentators (such as Artosis) say that ZvZ is still a little messy and that people are still working on trying to figure it out. Apparently, since Zerg has been the least played race, thus ZvZ is the most rare, a lot of Zerg are just kind of like ~_^ when it comes to getting a game sense for it. So hang in there, buddy! Hopefully one day, I'll be good at at least one matchup! :-D
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when i play zerg i focus hard to scout what hes doing and defend it.
roach push, spines and spire
early spire, go kill him or make queens and hydras or even queens and mutas
bane bust, sim city and roaches
infestors are the most powerful unit in the zvz matchup. using fungal growths effectively is totally key.
what makes zvz hard is sometimes you need a little bit of everything to survive. bane into his hydras mutas over his roaches lings to soak up initial dmg etc etc etc
late game i always aim to get out broodlords and hella corrupters and hydras underneathe. one or two infestors always for support.
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On December 03 2010 10:57 Hurkyl wrote:First replay: At about 6:10, I think you make a big mistake -- you had managed to keep your 6 Zerglings from being utterly slaughtered (but you did lose one). Then what do you do? You turn right around and throw them away for no apparent gain. At 7:50, you make another one. You had just scared off a Zergling army about the same size as yours, and then hatched a bunch of Zerglings to double your army size. That isn't the mistake. The mistake was that you didn't run towards his base to see if you could catch him Droning, (Also, at this point, I feel like you don't have very scouting in the middle to keep an eye on his Zerglings) When you finally attacked with those Zerglings at 10:00, you had to do a run by 2 spines, a queen, and 15 Zerglings, but you still did a lot of damage. Imagine how much better it would have been if you did it a minute and a half earlier when there was no static defense and fewer drones! You made a 9 Roaches here too. I think this is a rather poor idea for two reasons: - In smallish numbers and in the open, Roaches do quite badly against the Zerglings you know your opponent has
- You need Hydralisks to ward off the Mutas you know he's building
At 20:00, the flaw with your army composition is made evident -- your Hydralisks are simply crushed by his Mutaling. Also, I think there were problems with your engagement -- the most important thing in this battle is to keep your Hydralisks alive. However, they got separated from the Roaches letting some Zerglings attack, and I think your Fungal growths would have been better spent on the Zerglings that were going for your Hydralisks. When it comes down to it, I think if you want to go Roach/Hydra/Infestor against Mutaling, you really have to turtle until you have a very powerful ball of units, and what you attacked with wasn't particularly intimidating. It didn't help that you were low on Drones through most of the middle game. (But, of course, I understand that you could have been run over if you didn't make them. It's a hard position)
what this guy says about defending with roach hydra infestor is absolutely spot on. due to the speed of the units you simply cannot pressure and defend at the same time against muta ling so you must sit back and defend untill you know you can crush his army and then you can either base trade or just maintain your advantage by expanding. what i usually do against muta ling is just keep defending while massing and getting corrupters and upgrading carapace and ranged attack. pushing out only to secure a third.
the one way i think its good ot attack with that comp is to have bane and tons of spores at home. to defend while having enough hydras. if the enemey builds up enough mutas they actually beat hydras so you have to have really good fg micro. which coincidentally RAPES mutas.
he was also spot on about not running to his base to see if you could catch him droning. since most zergs will look for an opportunity and if its not there will just continue to drone up if you catch them doing this you can really punish them for it. one trick i like to do is to throw down a fast hatch let it get scouted and then make pure lings from both hatches, they usually think im droning up and will either make lings to try and punish me or power drones to keep up with me. either way there fucked lol.
On December 03 2010 11:26 Neo21803 wrote:
This may be really noobie, and if it is, I'm sorry.
I'm a very low rated diamond zerg, but for ZvZ, I'm a one-trick pony. Fortunately it wins me about 90% of ZvZs.
The strategy?
Muta rush.
I open with 14 pool, 13 gas. Second gas at 17. Queen when pool finishes, put a creep tumor near entrance of base, then spawn larvae. Lair at 100gas, Spire after lair. When I have the spare minerals, I place spine crawlers. First 2 go around my hatchery (preventing ling harass). Then by the time the spire is done, I have about 5 or 6 spine crawlers (4 at my entrance to hinder harassment and 2 near my hatchery). I stop drone production at 50% spire, and save up. By the time the spire is done, I have 8 mutas hatching and they get to the other base at around 8:00. If they have spore crawlers, camp their entrance, because you now have full map control. Keep pumping mutas and now is when you upgrade ling speed and get your expansion.
Your opponent has no choice but to get hydras and/or mutas, and luckily for you, mass muta/ling > hydras and you will always have more mutas than your opponent. Upgrade too. Air armor if you see your opponent getting mutas, or air attack if you see your opponent getting hydras.
I have been able to beat speedling rushes and roach rushes and baneling rushes with this strategy.
Honestly, I treat ZvZ similarly to BW ZvZ (not exactly the same)
Hope this helps!
everytime i scout a zerg rushing mutas i just throw down a hatch in the nat get an evo and an extra queen. mutas are negated get roach hydra to kill them with and its gg.
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Bump to see if I can get any more help
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Hey,
I think good analysis was given here. I have had the same problem, until using this new build i came up with. It's risky, but goes with my style of play.
What I do is:
9 ovie
15 gas
14 hatch 13 pool
@100% extractor: 2 drone on gas
15 ovie
15 speedling research
15 queen
3rd drone on gas ( allows you to switch banelings fast if you scout your opponent, or go for lair not too late)
(!) take off drones of gas if you see mass speeling play!
If course scouting is the key. if you see one base roach play, spines are your savior.
For other one base play, larva and distance will give you the upper hand.
Against FE, up to you.
I havent tried integrating roaches yet, im playing around a lot with muta/ling/bane into 3 base broodlord.
2K zerg here btw.
If you want replays I can upload at least one that i saved.
PS: this is very risky on SoW, ofc.
EDIT: baneling solution isnt viable, after discussion with a mate of mine. guess i got lucky ^^
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I am very good ZvZ and will be happy to give u some ideas as how to win, in exchange for good strategy/guidance in ZvT. If you are interested email me at: areks13@gmail.com and we can schedule some practice games so you can understand as how to play ZvZ. Ooo I am in Dim. 2100’s and still moving up but I keep losing all ZvT’s...
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I am a silver, so take this with a grain of salt (even though this still wiped the floor with a 1900 diamond about a week ago with my horrible execution of the timing push). Basically what I've started doing is a +1 Speedling Push that hits at about the 6 minute mark with about 30 some odd lings.
Still working this out, but the rough BO is:
10 Pool
10 Gas - 3 drones on gas
10 OL
10 Queen
Cut drone production, swap to ling production
12 Evo Chamber
@100 gas - +1 Attack
@100 gas - Ling Speed
All drones on minerals, none on gas
Basically, I just leave 6 or so lings at my ramp to prevent scouting and keep them from scouting the mass of lings building up in my base. Just keep spits going, and be sure to chase enemy OL's out of your base with your queen. I try to keep my Evo Chamber as hidden as possible, but it not always feasible. Both upgrade at the same time if you did everything properly, and you can then push out with approximately 26 +1 speedlings. Just push out and dominate.
Thus far, I have not actually found anything that this loses to. The only time that I have actually lost with this is when I let myself get supply blocked twice and the other guy 7 RR'ed me. 14 lings < 7 roaches. I expect that mass baneling play would stop this, but even in the game against the 1900 diamond that I mentioned, he had banelings ready, but simply did not expect the number of lings that I was able to put out.
I can throw up a replay if you want.
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On December 09 2010 05:40 TheMariner wrote:
I am a silver, so take this with a grain of salt (even though this still wiped the floor with a 1900 diamond about a week ago with my horrible execution of the timing push). Basically what I've started doing is a +1 Speedling Push that hits at about the 6 minute mark with about 30 some odd lings.
Still working this out, but the rough BO is:
10 Pool
10 Gas - 3 drones on gas
10 OL
10 Queen
Cut drone production, swap to ling production
12 Evo Chamber
@100 gas - +1 Attack
@100 gas - Ling Speed
All drones on minerals, none on gas
Basically, I just leave 6 or so lings at my ramp to prevent scouting and keep them from scouting the mass of lings building up in my base. Just keep spits going, and be sure to chase enemy OL's out of your base with your queen. I try to keep my Evo Chamber as hidden as possible, but it not always feasible. Both upgrade at the same time if you did everything properly, and you can then push out with approximately 26 +1 speedlings. Just push out and dominate.
Thus far, I have not actually found anything that this loses to. The only time that I have actually lost with this is when I let myself get supply blocked twice and the other guy 7 RR'ed me. 14 lings < 7 roaches. I expect that mass baneling play would stop this, but even in the game against the 1900 diamond that I mentioned, he had banelings ready, but simply did not expect the number of lings that I was able to put out.
I can throw up a replay if you want.
So what happens if they blocked the ramp with roaches and are teching to muta or infestor?
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I am a silver, so take this with a grain of salt (even though this still wiped the floor with a 1900 diamond about a week ago with my horrible execution of the timing push). Basically what I've started doing is a +1 Speedling Push that hits at about the 6 minute mark with about 30 some odd lings.
Still working this out, but the rough BO is:
10 Pool
10 Gas - 3 drones on gas
10 OL
10 Queen
Cut drone production, swap to ling production
12 Evo Chamber
@100 gas - +1 Attack
@100 gas - Ling Speed
All drones on minerals, none on gas
Basically, I just leave 6 or so lings at my ramp to prevent scouting and keep them from scouting the mass of lings building up in my base. Just keep spits going, and be sure to chase enemy OL's out of your base with your queen. I try to keep my Evo Chamber as hidden as possible, but it not always feasible. Both upgrade at the same time if you did everything properly, and you can then push out with approximately 26 +1 speedlings. Just push out and dominate.
Thus far, I have not actually found anything that this loses to. The only time that I have actually lost with this is when I let myself get supply blocked twice and the other guy 7 RR'ed me. 14 lings < 7 roaches. I expect that mass baneling play would stop this, but even in the game against the 1900 diamond that I mentioned, he had banelings ready, but simply did not expect the number of lings that I was able to put out.
I can throw up a replay if you want.
I have seen 42 lings before but I can't imagine only 26 being that hard to handle.
That being said baneling micro should be able to handle this just fine.
As for my z vs z play
If I play again some one going 7 pool my bo is
9ol
10 drone
extrator trick
14 spawning pool
13 ol
drone up till spawning pool is almost done.
queen
lings
I have gotten a couple ggs from z coming in with 6 lings and a drone trying to get spine crawler on my creep. i leave 5-6 drones on minerals and then take the rest to attack lings.
If i see mass roaches. I try to stay aggressive build a few spine crawlers in my base upgrade ling attack to plus one wait till the ramp to their base is open and keep pressure on their eco. As long as I macro harder I'll win.
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basically this is my strategy.
Opening
On maps with easily defendable nats: 15hatch/14 pool UNLESS i scout opponent going for a fast pool ("fast" meaning, before 1st overlord, e.g. 6/7/8/9/10 pool). "Econ opening"
On other maps: 14gas/14pool speedling/baneling "speedling opening"
Early game
Econ opening:
1. if opponent is going one base banelings, make spine crawlers once nat finishes, get 2 queens asap, defend with speedling/crawler/queen. This is tough, but since you're on a map with an easily defendable nat, you should be able to defend it with smart crawler placement, and by blocking your ramp with queens.
2. If opponent also goes econ opening, get gas around 16/17 supply, go for 2 hatch speedling/baneling to either force him to get banelings, or force him to make crawlers
3. if opponent goes one base roaches, make roach warren & 1-2 crawlers, and then drone like crazy and keep close watch on entrance to his base. If he moves out, make a bunch of roaches to defend
speedling opening:
1. if opponent went hatch-first, speedling/baneling should win for sure, since you should only be doing speedling opening on maps that are bad for hatch-first; this is exactly why you DON'T hatch-first on these maps
2. if opponent went speedling opening: it comes down to speedling/baneling wars until someone can get an advantage or win the game
3. if opponent goes for roaches, cancel baneling nest, get roach warren, put down hatch at natural, and then drone like crazy and keep close watch on entrance to his base. If he moves out, make a bunch of roaches to defend.
Mid-game/late-game
Mid-game is roach wars, backed by infestors. You need to have a overseer constantly scouting to see if he's making a switch to muta. Assuming you are both equal going into the mid-game, if he tries to make a muta switch he will not have as many roaches as you, and you can probably attack him and end it before he gets too many mutas out.
Infestors do 2 things:
1. FG softens up his roach ball so that your roach ball will win. Also if you outnumber his roaches, FG will prevent him from retreating, and end the game there.
2. FG + queens defends your base against mutas until you can get hydras out, at which point FG + hydras will simply destroy mutas easily.
get evo chamber as soon as you have at least 2 gas and feel comfortable doing so (i don't have a good exact timing for this atm ) and start +1 ranged attack. Evo chamber should be constantly upgrading, in the following order: +1 attack, +2 attack, +1 carapace, +2 carapace. The reason you get +attack upgrades first, is because roaches get +2 damage per attack upgrades, but only +1 armor per armor upgrades.
If your opponent makes a tech-switch to muta and you aren't able to punish, you'll have to go on the defensive for a bit. Make 1-2 extra infestors, 1-2 extra queens until you can get some hydra out. Once you have sufficient hydra, attack with roach/hydra/infestor/queen. FG any banelings & mutas, roach/hydra/queen kills everything.
If the game goes to 3+ bases, you should get hive and go for broodlord or ultra. Another option on 3base is to make a large tech-switch to muta, as you will build up a lot of gas if you make only roach/infestor on 3 bases (unless you make an obscene amount of infestors).
This is what I do, it works up to 2500.
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I have actually improved to 2150 ish will probably be 2200 soon. I still fell like the only way I win ZvZ is with roach all ins before mutalisks come into play. But once my opponent has mutalisks I feel helpless.
On December 09 2010 05:21 PLxDratewka wrote:
I am very good ZvZ and will be happy to give u some ideas as how to win, in exchange for good strategy/guidance in ZvT. If you are interested email me at: areks13@gmail.com and we can schedule some practice games so you can understand as how to play ZvZ. Ooo I am in Dim. 2100’s and still moving up but I keep losing all ZvT’s...
Yeah I can help you with ZvT, it's probably my best MU. I only really lose ever lose ZvT if I fail at micro when I get pushed sub 9 minutes into the game.
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I used to have alot of issues to until I sat down with my friend for a weekend or two as we were both struggling, i'm 1.2k he's 2.2k, after about 30 matches or so we can now dominate in alot of ZvZ
The general opening we go with is a 14 pool 14 gas, and get out some early +1 speed roaches, you can get enough early to defend your ramp, and once you get about 10+ out you can make an extremely aggressive and hard to hold off push especially if they haven't been keeping up in upgrades or FE.
And on scrap station give up, I always do particularly stupid builds and they seem to work my most recent was a 10 Gas 13 Pool 16 Ling speed 16 Queen 21 Bane nest, once you start researching speed take a drone of gas and just mass out lings until 30-ish supplies morph all the banes you can and go for an attack, if they go for roaches free drone kills otherwise ling/bane micro gooo.
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zvz has been my favorite matchup so far, it's so absurdly volatile it's hilarious. just remember, hydras aren't the counter to mutas, infestors are the counter to mutas.
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I win around 80% of my ZvZ... it is certainly my strongest match-up.
I go roach/hydra on every map with an easily defended ramp. And I never go infestors or mutas in ZvZ. In fact, I have literally never lost a game to an opponent who went infestor or muta. They are a terrible waste of gas that should otherwise be spent in upgrades and hydras.
My only losses come from maps without a choke, where it comes down to ling-bling all-ins.
I highly recommend you take a look at this thread. It has my general strategy and a few replays to show you what I mean.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167807
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On November 26 2010 02:45 Trevoc wrote:
I'm on the other side of this fence. I find ZvZ very easy to win. I usually set up some early ling pressure to see what they're going to do. If they go lings, I go banelings and if they go roach I do the same. The key to this is to put enough pressure on them to force more roaches than they need. By the time they've made so many roaches.. you have mutas. It always seems to play out this way for me ~2k diamond Z
going roach-->muta can lead to a losing base trade unless you manage to ninja out a drone. If he brings drones with his speed roach/ling army, you will lose horribly, and even if your mutas would otherwise be able to win the base trade, he can use your creep to make spores while he annihilates your main (similarly if you try to use mutas on his army while he attacks your main he can spore it up).
I didn't end up seeing this happen to often above 1500 diamond, prolly because mutas so rarely get made. But I have won a good number of games where this happened when I went for roach speed and they went for spire (assuming they dont send out a few drones when they see me sending mine across the the map, of course I usually do this with a drone or two myself, although mutas are prolly better at hunting down random extractors than lings roaches). Generally they spend all their money trying to get as many lings/spines up as possible rather than just try to win the base trade.
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On November 26 2010 03:41 ganjazerg wrote:
its the strongest ZvZ opening by far. unless you screw up, it beats everything. even if you only pull off mediocre execution, you will come out ahead. the early mobility speed gives you is ridiculously strong, and reinforcements arrive in your enemies base super fast. you can outmicro even larger numbers of enemy lings, pick off drones and run around wrecking havoc. your opponent doesnt have time to tech or do anything. he will be screwed unless he did a similar build.
Roach ramp block? horrible economy?
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On December 09 2010 05:51 Jtn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 05:40 TheMariner wrote:
I am a silver, so take this with a grain of salt (even though this still wiped the floor with a 1900 diamond about a week ago with my horrible execution of the timing push). Basically what I've started doing is a +1 Speedling Push that hits at about the 6 minute mark with about 30 some odd lings.
Still working this out, but the rough BO is:
10 Pool
10 Gas - 3 drones on gas
10 OL
10 Queen
Cut drone production, swap to ling production
12 Evo Chamber
@100 gas - +1 Attack
@100 gas - Ling Speed
All drones on minerals, none on gas
Basically, I just leave 6 or so lings at my ramp to prevent scouting and keep them from scouting the mass of lings building up in my base. Just keep spits going, and be sure to chase enemy OL's out of your base with your queen. I try to keep my Evo Chamber as hidden as possible, but it not always feasible. Both upgrade at the same time if you did everything properly, and you can then push out with approximately 26 +1 speedlings. Just push out and dominate.
Thus far, I have not actually found anything that this loses to. The only time that I have actually lost with this is when I let myself get supply blocked twice and the other guy 7 RR'ed me. 14 lings < 7 roaches. I expect that mass baneling play would stop this, but even in the game against the 1900 diamond that I mentioned, he had banelings ready, but simply did not expect the number of lings that I was able to put out.
I can throw up a replay if you want. So what happens if they blocked the ramp with roaches and are teching to muta or infestor?
If its a ramp like Scrap Station, I can just throw them at the wall until one drops, and then they mop up and the reinforcements clean up. Otherwise, I'm screwed.
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I had tons of trouble with ZvZ and just recently started doing fairly well. It might be a temporary hotstreak, but what I've been doing is scouting on 9 and if I see they're getting pool around 14 or later (they usually always do) I go 14 hatch with fast gas/speed, and just pump a bunch of lings.
I attack around the time speed finishes. If they got really fast blings or roaches they can hold me off, so I just fall back and have a runby threat or some defense in my base. Then I go with whatever tech they had, and have that plus lots of lings and a few spine crawlers for defense while I tech to mutas. If they got roaches or banelings, I mix in some roaches. If they went mass ling too, I get some banelings.
If they got hydras against my mutas, I attack with roach/baneling. Banelings ROCK hydras. Roach/baneling roflstomps roach/hydra unless infestors are mixed in to kill the blings.
Really, the bottom line is that I've started focusing more on high-economy speedling aggression and it seems to work ok.
~1950 zerg
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Information is invaluable in ZvZ. Dare I say, more than any other MU. Something you can do early on is send a scout around 10 food. If you're lucky, you can pretend to run out of his base and then run back in and hide it in a corner in his base. Might want to keep it on a short patrol, so that you don't get pincered if he finds you and tries to kill you with a few workers.
You can use this drone later to scout that key baneling nest, roach warren, lair, etc.
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On November 26 2010 02:41 tx.zyclon wrote:
a good way to learn is to download replays of high level zvzs. dimaga, sen, idra. look through their cam and examine what they do, why they might be doing it, etc.. Then that also will give you maybe a better understanding into your own replays as well. I'm sure people here will watch them and help too, but just so you can help yourself even more.
the problem about its is, first there are nearly no zvz on a decent level, and second, they almost always are ling bling all ins vs ling bling. ive seen several replays from idra, and they where all ling bling
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On December 10 2010 15:20 Shamaya wrote:
Information is invaluable in ZvZ. Dare I say, more than any other MU. Something you can do early on is send a scout around 10 food. If you're lucky, you can pretend to run out of his base and then run back in and hide it in a corner in his base. Might want to keep it on a short patrol, so that you don't get pincered if he finds you and tries to kill you with a few workers.
You can use this drone later to scout that key baneling nest, roach warren, lair, etc.
You can get that information with ling pressure too. 
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EPT
