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I think i seriously must be doing something wrong. I lose probably 90% of my ZvZs. I have no trouble with protoss or terran but I have absolutely NO IDEA what to do in ZvZ. I don't know when to FE, how to defend FE, how to do an all in properly. I feel like even when I win it was a poor win. I just flat out suck at ZvZ and I need to get better. I am going to post a bunch of replays and if anyone can find a recurring theme as to why I suck so much that would be absolutely amazing. You can be critical I am not a little baby that cannot handle it.
I have analyzed every replay and the ideas as to what I could do better don't seem like enough. I am sick of the rock/paper/scissor or build orders that is ZvZ and I need to know what I am doing wrong. Because whenever I throw out rock, my opponent has paper and I never have scissors to retort with.
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I think the only times I win, having gone back over these, is doing some gay roach all in. And even then sometimes its barely a win.
Immediately after posting this I went and played again. Guess what! ZvZ loss :/
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I absolutely know what you are talking about. It's like I just can't win a single ZvZ but but ZvT and ZvP are pretty much auto-win. I don't have the time to watch any replays now and I think I couldn't help anyway, since it's such a hard matchup for me, too. But what I can do for you is post some replays of one of my Zerg friends crushing me. It's like he pwns me 100% of the time, I cannot win. Ironically he sucks balls at ZvT and ZvP.
I think ZvZ is just about Build Orders and one base play. I have never won doing FE against a Zerg player, but I always try cause I'm addicted to fast expansions :S
Anyway, here's the replay
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/109039-2v2-zerg-lost-temple
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im the same ZvZ is such a nightmere in the early game especialy there dosnt seam to be a stable, safe build. I normally have no idea to react to what the other zerg is doing. I suppose i am tasting my own medicine here :-(
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a good way to learn is to download replays of high level zvzs. dimaga, sen, idra. look through their cam and examine what they do, why they might be doing it, etc.. Then that also will give you maybe a better understanding into your own replays as well. I'm sure people here will watch them and help too, but just so you can help yourself even more.
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I'm on the other side of this fence. I find ZvZ very easy to win. I usually set up some early ling pressure to see what they're going to do. If they go lings, I go banelings and if they go roach I do the same. The key to this is to put enough pressure on them to force more roaches than they need. By the time they've made so many roaches.. you have mutas. It always seems to play out this way for me ~2k diamond Z
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i actually used to be a random player who chose zerg when he wanted some stability, but i got so sick of ZvZ that i decided to switch to protoss. it just seems like every ZvZ i have ever played was won by either a six pool, mass roaches, or fastest mutas first.
i believe it was IdrA who tweeted "anyone know how to ZvZ?"
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On November 26 2010 02:45 Trevoc wrote:
I'm on the other side of this fence. I find ZvZ very easy to win. I usually set up some early ling pressure to see what they're going to do. If they go lings, I go banelings and if they go roach I do the same. The key to this is to put enough pressure on them to force more roaches than they need. By the time they've made so many roaches.. you have mutas. It always seems to play out this way for me ~2k diamond Z
This sounds plausible. I feel as though I am always the one under pressure never the one putting it on. But how do you deal with huge counterattacks with roaches?
The blistering sands replay I posed of myself winning, was me under pressure after going roaches, him teching mutas, me teching burrow, speed and burow movement and me winning because he could not kill my shit fast enough and I was killing all of his drones.
Also Roach/Hydra/Infestor is very strong against mutalisks. Or do your games not go so far?
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Map plays a huge role on whether FE will be successful or not. For instance, Jungle Basin is a prime example of a good map to FE on nearly 100% of the time. Starting locations are far apart and natural is tucked away and easily defended from early ling/roach/bane aggression. On maps with quick rushing distances or multiple ways to attack from I stick to 1 base play. You need to scout your opponent early to see whether he goes roach or ling/baneling or even fast muta and adjust accordingly. I had a hard time with ZvZ as well for a long time because I would FE nearly every game and I just had to learn how to stick with 1 base play to match my opponent if I had to. Scouting early and often helped me improve my ZvZ to above 50%.
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I'm in the same boat but it's getting a bit better. What has i have noticed being my largest problem is scouting. In ZvP and ZvT the opponent feels alot more limited in options and also usually you have more time to prepare when they leave the base.
But the basic trend for winning seems to be getting mass roach complremented with infestors and sometimes also hydras. Early scout is important to spot any earlier pool than yours, but what is also important is to spot if opponent saves up larvae for lings when it pops.
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didn't watch reps, but i think i can give good ZvZ advice
always, on every map, do a speedling rush.
here is the BO
10 extractor (when you have around 100 minerals) [immediatly put 3 drones on when finished]
10 pool [remove 3 drones when u have 100 gas]
10 ol
@100% pool -> queen
@100% pool -> start researching ling speed
pump nonstop lings, squeeze in the next ol at 16 supply.
do not attack straight away, but gather lings in your main, trying to avoid them being scouted, and trying to stay out of enemy OL sight.
attack only after speed finishes, and keep reinforcing constantly (dedicate 100% to pumping lings and microing your lings)
why always this bo?
its the strongest ZvZ opening by far. unless you screw up, it beats everything. even if you only pull off mediocre execution, you will come out ahead. the early mobility speed gives you is ridiculously strong, and reinforcements arrive in your enemies base super fast. you can outmicro even larger numbers of enemy lings, pick off drones and run around wrecking havoc. your opponent doesnt have time to tech or do anything. he will be screwed unless he did a similar build.
i will see if i have some reps in my recent games and add them in a minute so you can visualise the strenght of this build.
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Okay I am trying to get better not just rush my opponent to death...I am asking for advice on how to improve my play. Maybe my build orders do need work but not like you are suggesting.
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I also find ZvZ very rock paper scissor.
The only safe way I've found to play is to get fast speedlings. Just as said above.
Except that I choose 13 extractor, 13 pool, and cut drones production at 16 drones.
As soon as I have 300 mineral I expend, and attack, making the expend 100% safe. I usually resume the drone production shortly after, depending of how many units the other zerg has made.
With this build I'm able to defend any earlier pool with micro. And if the other zerg expended before me, he just can't make drones and get any macro advantage ... without being far better than me.
And, it's not rushing to death the opponent, it's just applying pressure like any other races should do against a zerg.
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On November 26 2010 04:06 Elean wrote:
I also find ZvZ very rock paper scissor.
The only safe way I've found to play is to get fast speedlings. Just as said above.
Except that I choose 13 extractor, 13 pool, and cut drones production at 16 drones.
As soon as I have 300 mineral I expend, and attack, making the expend 100% safe.
With this build I'm able to defend any earlier pool with micro. And if the other zerg expended before me, he just can't make drones and get any macro advantage ... without being far better than me.
And, it's not rushing to death the opponent, it's just applying pressure. Like any other races should do against a zerg.
10OverPoolExtractorQueen is very much so rushing your opponent to death. If it fails you are behind a shit ton.
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On November 26 2010 04:11 MorsCerta wrote:
10OverPoolExtractorQueen is very much so rushing your opponent to death. If it fails you are behind a shit ton.
That's why I suggest 13 extractor 13 pool, which should not leave you behind.
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On November 26 2010 03:41 ganjazerg wrote:
didn't watch reps, but i think i can give good ZvZ advice
always, on every map, do a speedling rush.
here is the BO
10 extractor (when you have around 100 minerals) [immediatly put 3 drones on when finished]
10 pool [remove 3 drones when u have 100 gas]
10 ol
@100% pool -> queen
@100% pool -> start researching ling speed
pump nonstop lings, squeeze in the next ol at 16 supply.
do not attack straight away, but gather lings in your main, trying to avoid them being scouted, and trying to stay out of enemy OL sight.
attack only after speed finishes, and keep reinforcing constantly (dedicate 100% to pumping lings and microing your lings)
why always this bo?
its the strongest ZvZ opening by far. unless you screw up, it beats everything. even if you only pull off mediocre execution, you will come out ahead. the early mobility speed gives you is ridiculously strong, and reinforcements arrive in your enemies base super fast. you can outmicro even larger numbers of enemy lings, pick off drones and run around wrecking havoc. your opponent doesnt have time to tech or do anything. he will be screwed unless he did a similar build.
i will see if i have some reps in my recent games and add them in a minute so you can visualise the strenght of this build.
i think 10pool/10gas is better for speedling opening. make 8 lings, get lingspeed, then put your gas drones back on minerals. go attack with your first 6 + 2 more that catch up and make DRONES at home. a lot of times your opponet will overreact. get your queen after your 2nd OL and expand, deny scouting with your speedlings, and transition into roaches or roach/hydra if he goes 1 base muta. you attack with your first few lings because if your opponet went for a blind 15 hatch (common on a lot of maps lately) you can basically kill him outright with a steady stream of lings, and if he went for a later pool, all you have to do is kill 2-3 drones and you are even or ahead in worker count (as long as you were making drones at home while you harass), + you have map control and speedlings.
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I'm with you OP. Just got to ~1700 yesterday, and I roll over terran, and even vs protoss (used to have trouble vs them) I can hold my own, but when I see a zerg opponent I feel like I should just say gg and quit at the start. Again, as you said, the only time I win is with mass roach and mixing in hydra/infestor, but it seems I barely win when I do.
To the poster who said mass speedling to muta: Do you ever encounter someone who plays hydra/infestor? Mutas are about the only strat I seem to win against in ZvZ because my fast infestor/hydra shuts it down so hard, but almost nobody does mutas anymore. The exception is on Shakuras where a slow ground army just isn't that hot (and yes, I spread creep a LOT).
I've tried the speed/bane thing, and although I'm decent at micro, I hate the baneling wars, so I'm really hoping someone has a viable alternative.
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I go 12 pool, 11 extractor, except on long rush distances when I'll go 13 pool 12 extractor. This is safe against any earlier pool. I'll get speed as soon as I have 100 gas, then pull drones off gas to mine. Cut drone production at 15 or 16, mass lings and attack when speed finishes. Expand when I attack. This beats everything but the same build, and if you're met with mass ling, get a handful of banelings and go defensive. Tech to roaches. Get upgrades early and often. Scout for mutas, if you see a spire get hydra den and a couple infestors. Push when you're 1/1 on upgrades.
If you get this far, hope your upgrades are superior.
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10OverPoolExtractorQueen is very much so rushing your opponent to death. If it fails you are behind a shit ton.
no. it cannot fail. how exactly should it fail? the least damage you will do is pickoff a handful of drones and force your opponent to pump lings or plant a spine. after wich you are always ahead. if you deal so little damage that you are behind after this rush then you belong in silver league and need to learn how to benefit from an investment (speedling micro).
i think 10pool/10gas is better for speedling opening. make 8 lings, get lingspeed, then put your gas drones back on minerals. go attack with your first 6 + 2 more that catch up and make DRONES at home. a lot of times your opponet will overreact. get your queen after your 2nd OL and expand, deny scouting with your speedlings, and transition into roaches or roach/hydra if he goes 1 base muta. you attack with your first few lings because if your opponet went for a blind 15 hatch (common on a lot of maps lately) you can basically kill him outright with a steady stream of lings, and if he went for a later pool, all you have to do is kill 2-3 drones and you are even or ahead in worker count (as long as you were making drones at home while you harass), + you have map control and speedlings.
why would you make pool before extractor? the point of the speedling rush is to have speedlings asap. if you plant your pool before the extractor you are doing it wrong and might aswell just 8pool without the speed.
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~2500zerg
i feel/felt the same about zvz -its pretty hard. try to use 1 or 2 build of the standard builds (which i ll explain) and practice em. u need to know timing and u need to know which attack wins and which not.
1. speedling or speedling/bane opening
2. 1base roach into lair into 2base roach
3. 2base ling or roach
4. 1base muta ling
5. weird early rush with or without bane.
personally i think 14hatch openings can be risky. so dont do it or practice it hard 
and do it only on lt shakur and maybe meta.
so i think ling or roach opening works best.
1. ling bane opening:
14gas 14pool (or 13dont care) 15ovi queen speed lings- then banenest .
scout with your first 4-6lings and try to get a ling in the main and see if he goes roach or ling/bane or fasttech.
if he goes roach-cancel banelingnest and get a roach warren. make like 4-6more drones and make raoches by yourself. your initial lings give u mapcontrol!!! so u can get some roaches lair gas- make +1 range and speed and then get expo. scout for mutas with overseer. transition into raoch ifester +maybe hydra. upgrades......
2. roaches
14pool 14gas 15ovi queen 6-8lings roach warren ->roaches. (look for a exact build by yourself^^) but u get like 5roaches @ramp. get some more drones lair 2nd gas speed +1 masss raoches and exe
3. 14hach 14pool .
when pool is done get 2queens 2spines and make lings to def. position queens at ramp to block. scout if he goes ling all in or drones 2 base too. ->2base roach with maybe double evo + inf
4. 1base muta ling
14gas 14pool. make lings to defend -make (2-10000000^^) spines to def whatever he thorws at u. get drones tech mutas. get mapcontrol and expand. go roach after u got your 5-8 mutas.
5. rush
try 7pool with spines
9pool
10pool
10gas 10pool baneling rush
these are basic ideas. so: lings give u mapcontrol vs roach. he cant really push out. if he does u can make spines units and/or run inot his base. on big maps pretty nice.
then u can drone up maybe a little more than him and get roaches.
always get 1-2 oversser to scout for spire or other dangerous things. use him to shut down his larva injects.
get upgrades.
basically 80% of zvzs are roach vs roach. practice builds watch reps -practice ...if you have more qustions look @ teamliquid forums or ask me addiction.802 @eu
gl
i ll watch a rep sooner or laer and tell you what i think
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EPT
