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First replay:
At about 6:10, I think you make a big mistake -- you had managed to keep your 6 Zerglings from being utterly slaughtered (but you did lose one). Then what do you do? You turn right around and throw them away for no apparent gain.
At 7:50, you make another one. You had just scared off a Zergling army about the same size as yours, and then hatched a bunch of Zerglings to double your army size. That isn't the mistake. The mistake was that you didn't run towards his base to see if you could catch him Droning,
(Also, at this point, I feel like you don't have very scouting in the middle to keep an eye on his Zerglings)
When you finally attacked with those Zerglings at 10:00, you had to do a run by 2 spines, a queen, and 15 Zerglings, but you still did a lot of damage. Imagine how much better it would have been if you did it a minute and a half earlier when there was no static defense and fewer drones!
You made a 9 Roaches here too. I think this is a rather poor idea for two reasons:
- In smallish numbers and in the open, Roaches do quite badly against the Zerglings you know your opponent has
- You need Hydralisks to ward off the Mutas you know he's building
At 20:00, the flaw with your army composition is made evident -- your Hydralisks are simply crushed by his Mutaling.
Also, I think there were problems with your engagement -- the most important thing in this battle is to keep your Hydralisks alive. However, they got separated from the Roaches letting some Zerglings attack, and I think your Fungal growths would have been better spent on the Zerglings that were going for your Hydralisks.
When it comes down to it, I think if you want to go Roach/Hydra/Infestor against Mutaling, you really have to turtle until you have a very powerful ball of units, and what you attacked with wasn't particularly intimidating.
It didn't help that you were low on Drones through most of the middle game. (But, of course, I understand that you could have been run over if you didn't make them. It's a hard position)
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I know someone's already plugged my ZvZ with Machine VOD....
Just in case, though, here's a link to it on Blip: http://mrbitter.blip.tv/file/4446975/
This is, hands down, the most thorough analysis of ZvZ in its current form that there is. Watch it, please.
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Now I'll look at the ZvZ LT win.
At 1:45, I think you overdid attacking the scouting Drone -- too many units, and you didn't wait for it to get close enough.
At 4:15, I think your Spine + 2 Zergling attack was ill-advised. Wasting units is very, very dangerous in a Zergling vs Zergling battle.
At 5:45, when you hatch a decent Zergling army, you went to attack. That's good! But splitting into two groups and using force-move was bad -- you got your lings into a bad position and gave him a lot of free hits.  But you escaped so it's not so big a deal...
But then you turn back in?!?! You lost 6 more Zerglings. Again, very dangerous. Do you think the scouting info was really worth it?
At 7:00, you decide to attack with your 8 Zerglings and 4 Roaches against 22 Zerglings. You killed 6. Attacking when you're so outnumbered like that is again dangerous! If you just retreated and blocked your ramp and waited for the next 7 Roaches, you might have even killed him right there.
But in the end, he doesn't turtle hard enough and your Roaches break the front line, essentially winning the game.
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This may be really noobie, and if it is, I'm sorry.
I'm a very low rated diamond zerg, but for ZvZ, I'm a one-trick pony. Fortunately it wins me about 90% of ZvZs.
The strategy?
Muta rush.
I open with 14 pool, 13 gas. Second gas at 17. Queen when pool finishes, put a creep tumor near entrance of base, then spawn larvae. Lair at 100gas, Spire after lair. When I have the spare minerals, I place spine crawlers. First 2 go around my hatchery (preventing ling harass). Then by the time the spire is done, I have about 5 or 6 spine crawlers (4 at my entrance to hinder harassment and 2 near my hatchery). I stop drone production at 50% spire, and save up. By the time the spire is done, I have 8 mutas hatching and they get to the other base at around 8:00. If they have spore crawlers, camp their entrance, because you now have full map control. Keep pumping mutas and now is when you upgrade ling speed and get your expansion.
Your opponent has no choice but to get hydras and/or mutas, and luckily for you, mass muta/ling > hydras and you will always have more mutas than your opponent. Upgrade too. Air armor if you see your opponent getting mutas, or air attack if you see your opponent getting hydras.
I have been able to beat speedling rushes and roach rushes and baneling rushes with this strategy.
Honestly, I treat ZvZ similarly to BW ZvZ (not exactly the same)
Hope this helps!
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On December 03 2010 10:22 Hurkyl wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 09:03 Xde wrote:-If they go pool first or any one base play I do the same and try to get my pool just slightly later than they do (so that I have a slightly better economy) You know that's only strictly true BW, right? While this gets you a dozen or so extra minerals in SC2, it also delays your larvae production because of the delayed queen. Delaying the pool is quite counterproductive for many openings.
While that is true it does help in fending off any early aggression. I don't really delay my pool by more than 1 or 2 supply.
ie: He 10 pools and I 12 pool, I'm going to be able to hold off any rushes that much more easily because generally a slightly later pool will counter your opponent's opening.
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On December 03 2010 11:26 Neo21803 wrote:
This may be really noobie, and if it is, I'm sorry.
I'm a very low rated diamond zerg, but for ZvZ, I'm a one-trick pony. Fortunately it wins me about 90% of ZvZs.
The strategy?
Muta rush.
I open with 14 pool, 13 gas. Second gas at 17. Queen when pool finishes, put a creep tumor near entrance of base, then spawn larvae. Lair at 100gas, Spire after lair. When I have the spare minerals, I place spine crawlers. First 2 go around my hatchery (preventing ling harass). Then by the time the spire is done, I have about 5 or 6 spine crawlers (4 at my entrance to hinder harassment and 2 near my hatchery). I stop drone production at 50% spire, and save up. By the time the spire is done, I have 8 mutas hatching and they get to the other base at around 8:00. If they have spore crawlers, camp their entrance, because you now have full map control. Keep pumping mutas and now is when you upgrade ling speed and get your expansion.
Your opponent has no choice but to get hydras and/or mutas, and luckily for you, mass muta/ling > hydras and you will always have more mutas than your opponent. Upgrade too. Air armor if you see your opponent getting mutas, or air attack if you see your opponent getting hydras.
I have been able to beat speedling rushes and roach rushes and baneling rushes with this strategy.
Honestly, I treat ZvZ similarly to BW ZvZ (not exactly the same)
Hope this helps!
I've never lost to a fast rush 1 base muta in ZvZ because it's very easy to counter. First if you see the zerg completely turtle, fast lair and spine crawler, you're free to take an expo, hell maybe even a 3rd. You can drone out the ass and even go muta yourself. you may get 8 muta faster but with addtional queen + spores (not really needed) and 2x the economy I'll have exceeded the muta count shortly. This is just 1 way to counter this type of play. I won't even go into 2 base roach breaking etc. The only way this could work is if the player does a really awful 1 base roach (a well played 1 base roach could even beat this, even a fast expo ling/bane) or just doesn't scout and see youre going fast 1 base muta (not really going to happen in upper diamond.)
I have lost to normal 1 base muta play where each zerg denies the others expo's early and it's to dangerous to try and take it, but I'm pretty sure never to a 1 base muta rush. I mean its the same as any build economy vs quick aggression, I just don't think 1base muta rush is a good quick aggression type of build. If your opponent is smart his eco is going to destroy you.
I understand where youre coming from though when I was low diamond level i felt muta were key and would get them too fast but I've learned many a hard lesson.
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I have absolutely NO IDEA what to do in ZvZ. I don't know when to FE
In case it hasn't been answered... basically you can 14 hatch 15 pool on LT, Metalopolis and Shakuras
This is coming from a 2300 zerg
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On December 04 2010 04:42 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 11:26 Neo21803 wrote:
This may be really noobie, and if it is, I'm sorry.
I'm a very low rated diamond zerg, but for ZvZ, I'm a one-trick pony. Fortunately it wins me about 90% of ZvZs.
The strategy?
Muta rush.
I open with 14 pool, 13 gas. Second gas at 17. Queen when pool finishes, put a creep tumor near entrance of base, then spawn larvae. Lair at 100gas, Spire after lair. When I have the spare minerals, I place spine crawlers. First 2 go around my hatchery (preventing ling harass). Then by the time the spire is done, I have about 5 or 6 spine crawlers (4 at my entrance to hinder harassment and 2 near my hatchery). I stop drone production at 50% spire, and save up. By the time the spire is done, I have 8 mutas hatching and they get to the other base at around 8:00. If they have spore crawlers, camp their entrance, because you now have full map control. Keep pumping mutas and now is when you upgrade ling speed and get your expansion.
Your opponent has no choice but to get hydras and/or mutas, and luckily for you, mass muta/ling > hydras and you will always have more mutas than your opponent. Upgrade too. Air armor if you see your opponent getting mutas, or air attack if you see your opponent getting hydras.
I have been able to beat speedling rushes and roach rushes and baneling rushes with this strategy.
Honestly, I treat ZvZ similarly to BW ZvZ (not exactly the same)
Hope this helps! I've never lost to a fast rush 1 base muta in ZvZ because it's very easy to counter. First if you see the zerg completely turtle, fast lair and spine crawler, you're free to take an expo, hell maybe even a 3rd. You can drone out the ass and even go muta yourself. you may get 8 muta faster but with addtional queen + spores (not really needed) and 2x the economy I'll have exceeded the muta count shortly. This is just 1 way to counter this type of play. I won't even go into 2 base roach breaking etc. The only way this could work is if the player does a really awful 1 base roach (a well played 1 base roach could even beat this, even a fast expo ling/bane) or just doesn't scout and see youre going fast 1 base muta (not really going to happen in upper diamond.) I have lost to normal 1 base muta play where each zerg denies the others expo's early and it's to dangerous to try and take it, but I'm pretty sure never to a 1 base muta rush. I mean its the same as any build economy vs quick aggression, I just don't think 1base muta rush is a good quick aggression type of build. If your opponent is smart his eco is going to destroy you. I understand where youre coming from though when I was low diamond level i felt muta were key and would get them too fast but I've learned many a hard lesson.
Please tell me how to beat 1 base muta. I'm ~1700 but almost always lose to lower rating zerg becuz of muta. QQ
They usually go speelings into muta with crawler defense. If I expo and try to out macro him, I will be low on units and get ling runbys. If I make roaches to block ramp, my lair is delayed even more. I'm really lost on how to play zvz.
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On December 04 2010 07:48 kerminator wrote:In case it hasn't been answered... basically you can 14 hatch 15 pool on LT, Metalopolis and Shakuras This is coming from a 2300 zerg
Unless you scout close positions on LT and meta I am assuming.
On December 03 2010 08:24 HardCorey wrote:Hi Unfurl, I'm HardCorey and ive just started trying to do a video series of answering questions on various threads that provide replays. I took a look at your replay and I just uploaded the video. I talked about the issues of early pressure as Zerg and a bit about how to keep yourself economically ahead when under pressure. Also talked some about about the Rock, Paper, Scissor idea for ZvZ. (blip.tv)My Main ThreadHope this helps, -HardCorey Edit: Fixed the url. It just needs to finish converting.
I rather enjoyed this and found it helpful, if you did another one I would watch it. I think the shakuras game is a bad example of my issues.
I have since broken the 2K mark (2070 or something now) and have been doing better in ZvZ, but I still feel like I can't control matches unless my opponent makes a mistake, something I don't like because I find it easier to control vP and vT. Maybe thats just how ZvZ is, I'll post some more replays when I get home if I have some.
Also Bladeorade is my other account in case people were confused as I saw you were corey.
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On December 04 2010 09:52 MorsCerta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 07:48 kerminator wrote: I have absolutely NO IDEA what to do in ZvZ. I don't know when to FE In case it hasn't been answered... basically you can 14 hatch 15 pool on LT, Metalopolis and Shakuras This is coming from a 2300 zerg Unless you scout close positions on LT and meta I am assuming.
Even close positions you can get away with going hatch first.
It's not a matter of distance, but a matter of whether or not you can safely and effectively defend your hatch and your ramp with 2-4 spines and 2 queens.
You can also safely get away with hatch first on Shakuras, and can hatch first on Metalopolis and even Steppes, but doing so comes with a little more risk on those two.
Unsafe FE maps: Xel'Naga, Scrap Station, DQ... Any map with a large distance between where you'll plant the hatchery, and your ramp.
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On December 04 2010 03:15 Xde wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 10:22 Hurkyl wrote:On December 03 2010 09:03 Xde wrote:-If they go pool first or any one base play I do the same and try to get my pool just slightly later than they do (so that I have a slightly better economy) You know that's only strictly true BW, right? While this gets you a dozen or so extra minerals in SC2, it also delays your larvae production because of the delayed queen. Delaying the pool is quite counterproductive for many openings. While that is true it does help in fending off any early aggression. I don't really delay my pool by more than 1 or 2 supply. ie: He 10 pools and I 12 pool, I'm going to be able to hold off any rushes that much more easily because generally a slightly later pool will counter your opponent's opening.
What if he doesn't suicide his Zerglings ,and instead uses his larvae advantage to make one more Drone than you, while still matching your Zergling count?
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I'm totally too noob to give you any advice, so I won't! (although I know enough to appreciate this thread ^_^)
But if it makes you feel better, I hear some pros and commentators (such as Artosis) say that ZvZ is still a little messy and that people are still working on trying to figure it out. Apparently, since Zerg has been the least played race, thus ZvZ is the most rare, a lot of Zerg are just kind of like ~_^ when it comes to getting a game sense for it. So hang in there, buddy! Hopefully one day, I'll be good at at least one matchup! :-D
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when i play zerg i focus hard to scout what hes doing and defend it.
roach push, spines and spire
early spire, go kill him or make queens and hydras or even queens and mutas
bane bust, sim city and roaches
infestors are the most powerful unit in the zvz matchup. using fungal growths effectively is totally key.
what makes zvz hard is sometimes you need a little bit of everything to survive. bane into his hydras mutas over his roaches lings to soak up initial dmg etc etc etc
late game i always aim to get out broodlords and hella corrupters and hydras underneathe. one or two infestors always for support.
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On December 03 2010 10:57 Hurkyl wrote:First replay: At about 6:10, I think you make a big mistake -- you had managed to keep your 6 Zerglings from being utterly slaughtered (but you did lose one). Then what do you do? You turn right around and throw them away for no apparent gain. At 7:50, you make another one. You had just scared off a Zergling army about the same size as yours, and then hatched a bunch of Zerglings to double your army size. That isn't the mistake. The mistake was that you didn't run towards his base to see if you could catch him Droning, (Also, at this point, I feel like you don't have very scouting in the middle to keep an eye on his Zerglings) When you finally attacked with those Zerglings at 10:00, you had to do a run by 2 spines, a queen, and 15 Zerglings, but you still did a lot of damage. Imagine how much better it would have been if you did it a minute and a half earlier when there was no static defense and fewer drones! You made a 9 Roaches here too. I think this is a rather poor idea for two reasons: - In smallish numbers and in the open, Roaches do quite badly against the Zerglings you know your opponent has
- You need Hydralisks to ward off the Mutas you know he's building
At 20:00, the flaw with your army composition is made evident -- your Hydralisks are simply crushed by his Mutaling. Also, I think there were problems with your engagement -- the most important thing in this battle is to keep your Hydralisks alive. However, they got separated from the Roaches letting some Zerglings attack, and I think your Fungal growths would have been better spent on the Zerglings that were going for your Hydralisks. When it comes down to it, I think if you want to go Roach/Hydra/Infestor against Mutaling, you really have to turtle until you have a very powerful ball of units, and what you attacked with wasn't particularly intimidating. It didn't help that you were low on Drones through most of the middle game. (But, of course, I understand that you could have been run over if you didn't make them. It's a hard position)
what this guy says about defending with roach hydra infestor is absolutely spot on. due to the speed of the units you simply cannot pressure and defend at the same time against muta ling so you must sit back and defend untill you know you can crush his army and then you can either base trade or just maintain your advantage by expanding. what i usually do against muta ling is just keep defending while massing and getting corrupters and upgrading carapace and ranged attack. pushing out only to secure a third.
the one way i think its good ot attack with that comp is to have bane and tons of spores at home. to defend while having enough hydras. if the enemey builds up enough mutas they actually beat hydras so you have to have really good fg micro. which coincidentally RAPES mutas.
he was also spot on about not running to his base to see if you could catch him droning. since most zergs will look for an opportunity and if its not there will just continue to drone up if you catch them doing this you can really punish them for it. one trick i like to do is to throw down a fast hatch let it get scouted and then make pure lings from both hatches, they usually think im droning up and will either make lings to try and punish me or power drones to keep up with me. either way there fucked lol.
On December 03 2010 11:26 Neo21803 wrote:
This may be really noobie, and if it is, I'm sorry.
I'm a very low rated diamond zerg, but for ZvZ, I'm a one-trick pony. Fortunately it wins me about 90% of ZvZs.
The strategy?
Muta rush.
I open with 14 pool, 13 gas. Second gas at 17. Queen when pool finishes, put a creep tumor near entrance of base, then spawn larvae. Lair at 100gas, Spire after lair. When I have the spare minerals, I place spine crawlers. First 2 go around my hatchery (preventing ling harass). Then by the time the spire is done, I have about 5 or 6 spine crawlers (4 at my entrance to hinder harassment and 2 near my hatchery). I stop drone production at 50% spire, and save up. By the time the spire is done, I have 8 mutas hatching and they get to the other base at around 8:00. If they have spore crawlers, camp their entrance, because you now have full map control. Keep pumping mutas and now is when you upgrade ling speed and get your expansion.
Your opponent has no choice but to get hydras and/or mutas, and luckily for you, mass muta/ling > hydras and you will always have more mutas than your opponent. Upgrade too. Air armor if you see your opponent getting mutas, or air attack if you see your opponent getting hydras.
I have been able to beat speedling rushes and roach rushes and baneling rushes with this strategy.
Honestly, I treat ZvZ similarly to BW ZvZ (not exactly the same)
Hope this helps!
everytime i scout a zerg rushing mutas i just throw down a hatch in the nat get an evo and an extra queen. mutas are negated get roach hydra to kill them with and its gg.
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Bump to see if I can get any more help
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Hey,
I think good analysis was given here. I have had the same problem, until using this new build i came up with. It's risky, but goes with my style of play.
What I do is:
9 ovie
15 gas
14 hatch 13 pool
@100% extractor: 2 drone on gas
15 ovie
15 speedling research
15 queen
3rd drone on gas ( allows you to switch banelings fast if you scout your opponent, or go for lair not too late)
(!) take off drones of gas if you see mass speeling play!
If course scouting is the key. if you see one base roach play, spines are your savior.
For other one base play, larva and distance will give you the upper hand.
Against FE, up to you.
I havent tried integrating roaches yet, im playing around a lot with muta/ling/bane into 3 base broodlord.
2K zerg here btw.
If you want replays I can upload at least one that i saved.
PS: this is very risky on SoW, ofc.
EDIT: baneling solution isnt viable, after discussion with a mate of mine. guess i got lucky ^^
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I am very good ZvZ and will be happy to give u some ideas as how to win, in exchange for good strategy/guidance in ZvT. If you are interested email me at: areks13@gmail.com and we can schedule some practice games so you can understand as how to play ZvZ. Ooo I am in Dim. 2100’s and still moving up but I keep losing all ZvT’s...
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I am a silver, so take this with a grain of salt (even though this still wiped the floor with a 1900 diamond about a week ago with my horrible execution of the timing push). Basically what I've started doing is a +1 Speedling Push that hits at about the 6 minute mark with about 30 some odd lings.
Still working this out, but the rough BO is:
10 Pool
10 Gas - 3 drones on gas
10 OL
10 Queen
Cut drone production, swap to ling production
12 Evo Chamber
@100 gas - +1 Attack
@100 gas - Ling Speed
All drones on minerals, none on gas
Basically, I just leave 6 or so lings at my ramp to prevent scouting and keep them from scouting the mass of lings building up in my base. Just keep spits going, and be sure to chase enemy OL's out of your base with your queen. I try to keep my Evo Chamber as hidden as possible, but it not always feasible. Both upgrade at the same time if you did everything properly, and you can then push out with approximately 26 +1 speedlings. Just push out and dominate.
Thus far, I have not actually found anything that this loses to. The only time that I have actually lost with this is when I let myself get supply blocked twice and the other guy 7 RR'ed me. 14 lings < 7 roaches. I expect that mass baneling play would stop this, but even in the game against the 1900 diamond that I mentioned, he had banelings ready, but simply did not expect the number of lings that I was able to put out.
I can throw up a replay if you want.
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On December 09 2010 05:40 TheMariner wrote:
I am a silver, so take this with a grain of salt (even though this still wiped the floor with a 1900 diamond about a week ago with my horrible execution of the timing push). Basically what I've started doing is a +1 Speedling Push that hits at about the 6 minute mark with about 30 some odd lings.
Still working this out, but the rough BO is:
10 Pool
10 Gas - 3 drones on gas
10 OL
10 Queen
Cut drone production, swap to ling production
12 Evo Chamber
@100 gas - +1 Attack
@100 gas - Ling Speed
All drones on minerals, none on gas
Basically, I just leave 6 or so lings at my ramp to prevent scouting and keep them from scouting the mass of lings building up in my base. Just keep spits going, and be sure to chase enemy OL's out of your base with your queen. I try to keep my Evo Chamber as hidden as possible, but it not always feasible. Both upgrade at the same time if you did everything properly, and you can then push out with approximately 26 +1 speedlings. Just push out and dominate.
Thus far, I have not actually found anything that this loses to. The only time that I have actually lost with this is when I let myself get supply blocked twice and the other guy 7 RR'ed me. 14 lings < 7 roaches. I expect that mass baneling play would stop this, but even in the game against the 1900 diamond that I mentioned, he had banelings ready, but simply did not expect the number of lings that I was able to put out.
I can throw up a replay if you want.
So what happens if they blocked the ramp with roaches and are teching to muta or infestor?
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I am a silver, so take this with a grain of salt (even though this still wiped the floor with a 1900 diamond about a week ago with my horrible execution of the timing push). Basically what I've started doing is a +1 Speedling Push that hits at about the 6 minute mark with about 30 some odd lings.
Still working this out, but the rough BO is:
10 Pool
10 Gas - 3 drones on gas
10 OL
10 Queen
Cut drone production, swap to ling production
12 Evo Chamber
@100 gas - +1 Attack
@100 gas - Ling Speed
All drones on minerals, none on gas
Basically, I just leave 6 or so lings at my ramp to prevent scouting and keep them from scouting the mass of lings building up in my base. Just keep spits going, and be sure to chase enemy OL's out of your base with your queen. I try to keep my Evo Chamber as hidden as possible, but it not always feasible. Both upgrade at the same time if you did everything properly, and you can then push out with approximately 26 +1 speedlings. Just push out and dominate.
Thus far, I have not actually found anything that this loses to. The only time that I have actually lost with this is when I let myself get supply blocked twice and the other guy 7 RR'ed me. 14 lings < 7 roaches. I expect that mass baneling play would stop this, but even in the game against the 1900 diamond that I mentioned, he had banelings ready, but simply did not expect the number of lings that I was able to put out.
I can throw up a replay if you want.
I have seen 42 lings before but I can't imagine only 26 being that hard to handle.
That being said baneling micro should be able to handle this just fine.
As for my z vs z play
If I play again some one going 7 pool my bo is
9ol
10 drone
extrator trick
14 spawning pool
13 ol
drone up till spawning pool is almost done.
queen
lings
I have gotten a couple ggs from z coming in with 6 lings and a drone trying to get spine crawler on my creep. i leave 5-6 drones on minerals and then take the rest to attack lings.
If i see mass roaches. I try to stay aggressive build a few spine crawlers in my base upgrade ling attack to plus one wait till the ramp to their base is open and keep pressure on their eco. As long as I macro harder I'll win.
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EPT
