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Chinesewonder
Canada354 Posts
Usually early and mid game you have roaches, and lings on the ground. Someone with good sentry micro can just throw up force fields if they are attacking your base which is narrower, they can just completely nullfiy anything you throw at them. How do you guys counter this? | ||
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Chinesewonder
Canada354 Posts
A case of what Im talking about. Even though the protoss army isn't as strong. The sentry's almost completely nullify anything the zerg can do that it has on the ground. It just seems ridiculous to me that having only 6-7 of these units can completely nullify anything the zerg does. How do you even counter this? As a zerg with lots of ground, how would you even micro out of this? | ||
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sennen
46 Posts
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
 I mean, I can try to explain it, but you'll get more out of it by just watching it yourself repeatedly. | ||
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BritishBeef
United Kingdom372 Posts
roaches can gogo under the forcefield) I was going to start talking about unit composition and other factors but at the end of the day in that video if he had used roach unburrow and got his army to his expansion faster he would have been in a lot better shape he also had no upgrades (i mean i know your just talking about dealing with forcefield) Truth be told there is no real way to deal with it. You have to fight in the open. You have to have more units when you engage You have to get your units down the ramp before he Forcefields and messes you up! Good luck` ~~ Spoiler above! edit your post if you can some haven't watched it yet friend | ||
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Chinesewonder
Canada354 Posts
On November 23 2010 09:17 BritishBeef wrote: Well for a start the video that you put in the second part of your video shows a heavy gateway force going up against Roaches without burrow movement, roaches can gogo under the forcefield) I was going to start talking about unit composition and other factors but at the end of the day in that video if he had used roach unburrow and got his army to his expansion faster he would have been in a lot better shape he also had no upgrades (i mean i know your just talking about dealing with forcefield) Truth be told there is no real way to deal with it. You have to fight in the open. You have to have more units when you engage You have to get your units down the ramp before he Forcefields and messes you up! Good luck` ~~ Spoiler above! edit your post if you can some haven't watched it yet friend Your two points where you have to have more units, if he does a timing push, when your building up your muta force, your going to be relying on speed lings, and you might have a bout 30-40 ish plus spine crawlers. In this case it just seems to me that all the protoss really has to do is do the ffs just right and he wins. I was just wondering if there is some kind of solid counter to this. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
Each sentry cost 100 gas, thats 4 roaches worth per, and their dps is weak. Its like in BW PvZ, yes, HT and storm are going to rape absurd amounts of hydralisks, but the Z should be able to still win just by sheer numbers (and a bit of micro). Bait FF to waste energy and set up flanks, get roach burrow and move under them. Other than that you just need to macro harder. | ||
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
As for mid-game, I really don't know as toss should have an obs out. | ||
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Bonham
Canada655 Posts
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ryot6
Canada8 Posts
I would say that the best way to deal with an army with a lot of sentries is to have either an army with tons of firepower that can survive the FF split then just out DPS the toss army, or have some sort of map controlling unit like mutas or speedlings that can take advantage of the fact that the toss won't be able to defend his mineral line and then just run in and kill everything. Oh and anything with burrow can just wait until the FFs are done then pop up and start fighting again, especially roaches with tunneling claws. Hope this helps! | ||
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ibreakurface
United States664 Posts
Don't get caught near chokes, wide areas are you're friend. Use lings to bait him into using forcefields. Once the forcefields are placed, macro because there is little you can do about it. | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On November 23 2010 09:17 rackdude wrote: GSL3, Sen in the game 3 of the round of 64. Go watch it. Macro macro macro macro macro. I mean, I can try to explain it, but you'll get more out of it by just watching it yourself repeatedly.I would definitely second this recommendation. His protoss opponent throws up some good forcefields, yet Sen is somehow able to hold off the push by not panicking, continuing to macro and surviving long enough for roach burrow. | ||
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LagT_T
Argentina535 Posts
On November 23 2010 09:26 sjschmidt93 wrote: Early game - burrow. Late game - ultras. As for mid-game, I really don't know as toss should have an obs out. Mid game - Mutas | ||
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JTouche
United States239 Posts
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OneManZerg
United States11 Posts
I actually made that video. The best thing a Zerg can do is get positioning and be ready to pounce on your opponents. If you get in quick enough you can counter a lot of the Force Fields as well as potentially favorably trap the Protoss units. Another thing that you can do is try to get the Protoss player to force field and then back away making it just a waste of their energy. Also, if you have some Hydralisks the force fields may be able to help you as they can block their Zealots from your Hydralisks... Also, you can counterattack... you have so much speed on the Protoss that if they try to hit you where it hurts... just do the same back to them. There are a lot of ways around it but primarily watch out for chokes, watch out for large Sentry forces and make sure you get a 'jump' if you do choose to fight. Also, here's a video we made somewhat in response to that sentry video as we received a lot of questions: Hope that helps man -OneManZerg | ||
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XdsZmX
21 Posts
Burrow isn't an answer to FF since many tosses have obs with their army, and if they don't burrow is a one-time solution since the toss will adapt after seeing you escape with burrow. Mutas in mid-game are effective if you don't want to deal with FFs. Baneling drops may work (pure theorycraft for banelings). In essence though, there's nothing a zerg can do vs forcefields until ultralisks. | ||
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Unsight
United States24 Posts
On November 23 2010 08:56 Chinesewonder wrote: How do you guys counter this? Burrow: Units that would die to being trapped by forcefields can burrow and live until the forcefields disappear. This works until the Protoss player gets an Observer. Infestors/Infested Terrans: Infested Terrans can do a surprising amount of damage and if you're already going Roaches then you'll probably have the ranged attack upgrades to make them even better. A fun tactic I like is to use an Overlord or Overseer for spotting and plop a ton of Infested Terrans up the cliff into the enemy base at a weird angle since usually the enemy army will be camped where their ramp/wall-off is. This works way better against a turtling Protoss, but Colossi can ruin the party pretty fast. Mutalisks: Obviously forcefields do nothing to them so harass as much as you like. If you can get a critical mass of Mutalisks before the Protoss death ball appears on your doorstep, you can win straight-up. That seems to be getting harder and harder these days though. Ultralisks: These guys are pretty awful against most all Protoss compositions, but one or two leading the charge or in the pack will run over forcefields. Still, the time it takes to get here and the sheer cost makes them a pretty bad choice overall. Broodlords: On the upside, if you were going for Corruptors to counter Colossi then transitioning into these is a no-brainer. On the downside, Hive tech and Greater Spire take a ridiculous amount of time to get to so you need to Mutalisk harass or do something to stay alive for a really long time. I'll reserve my rant on Hive tech for another thread. Ventral Sacs: Zerg drops... no expects it because it mostly sucks. Unlike Terran units, Zerg units don't work too well in small numbers and Ventral Sacs are costly and take a while to research. If you're lucky, Protoss will move his whole army away from the front so you can move your main army right on in. If you're not lucky then do what you can and go for some guaranteed damage. Always save the overlords and don't let units die for no reason. Micro: Good micro won't solve the problem but it will ease the suffering. People will say to flank and engage in open areas but really, if you're engaging Protoss in the open then either the Protoss is a n00b and you're going to win anyway or Protoss has a death ball he thinks will roll you. At that point, just give it your best. Use Backdoors: If the map has a backdoor, break it down. Force P to make more sentries and divide his army. That's pretty much all I can think of. Hope it helps. | ||
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Gemini_19
United States1257 Posts
![[image loading]](http://day9fan.com/blog/d9d153.png) The whole point of force fields are to help with the non mobile protoss army. Since they don't have stim to micro with, or drop ships and such, they need some way to alter movement otherwise they'd just be surrounded and "outconcaved" every battle. Early game it's all about taking your opponent off guard. If you can surround them then even if they can get a FF surround then It's a waste of energy and most likely won't be entirely effective. Muta's are a great transition to mid game in ZvT and obviously FF's can't go up And of course ultras negate force fields so those are always nifty. | ||
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Parra
United States152 Posts
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BetaWeak
United States6 Posts
Definitely agree on watching Sen's GSL3 games, but games 2 and 3, not just 3. 3 was more spectacular, but 2 had some really good roach/hydra flank micro against sentries, ffs, and stalkers, and in a position that looked like it necessitated retreat, Sen won. On November 23 2010 09:36 ryot6 wrote: When it comes to "countering" FFs it's really not the FFs that you need to think about, it's the sentries. I definitely agree. Remember that FF is an energy ability. Sentries are quite weak vs speedlings, so a very effective strategy is to continually harass the protoss' sentries with a small (15-30) group of speedlings. Even if they have zealots, getting a surround on the sentries is going to get you a lot of kills unless they use FFs to drive the lings away. This uses up sentry energy and will help you a lot when your armies engage. All the best. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
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hyped
United States135 Posts
-opens roaches -gets drop + baneling nest -engages in wide open area, as the toss is throwing down ff's, he baneling drops on the extremely tight stalker/senty/immortal ball http://www.filedude.com/download/ir9hXNWvXXde886c610a http://www.filedude.com/download/TWwvWceZkF3e27a401d1 he does it almost every game vs toss, except when he gets burrow instead (and he loses these ones -_-), look for his game vs RaNgeD on Blistering (in the first replay pack), he is taking on equal value stalker/sentry/immortal with roach/ling/baneling and winning easily | ||
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donut boi
United States154 Posts
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MolestedRabbit
17 Posts
As for 'changing your race to toss' because of FF. Go for it, mate. You will return back to zerg very soon, but you will for sure get the idea of how toss feels in PvZ. I myself am a crappy player (around 1800 diamond only), so you can just ignore my opinion. But if you ask me, toss can never ever feel safe in PvZ. If you don't pressure the zerg in the beginning, you lose. If you fail to defend your third with your immobile ground force, you lose. If you make it to the lategame... you lose  It is not a whine, PvZ is absolutely fine by me. You can disagree, whatever. Just play a few PvZ matches against a zerg who is macroing properly and I bet you will get the feeling. Edit: Also, every sentry he makes before the late midgame is -100 gas in his tech. And you know, untill a toss gets T3, you can pretty much do whatever you want. | ||
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CortoMontez
Australia608 Posts
If the zerg scouts or expects the protoss death-ball, they can easily spawn a nydus worm around the other side of the army, though out of sight. This would allow the zerg to quickly waste the energy of the sentries by bouncing from one side of the army to another, also allowing for quick counter attacks into the enemy base if the nydus is positioned correctly. Of course, this is just pure theorycraft. | ||
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
On November 23 2010 09:01 Chinesewonder wrote: I know I'm new to this but seriously http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szSwtPYQTxM A case of what Im talking about. Even though the protoss army isn't as strong. The sentry's almost completely nullify anything the zerg can do that it has on the ground. It just seems ridiculous to me that having only 6-7 of these units can completely nullify anything the zerg does. How do you even counter this? As a zerg with lots of ground, how would you even micro out of this? I've seen some pretty sick plays where the Z would burrow his roaches and crawl past the the force fields and pop back up, pretty micro intensive but definitely be a pretty good way of dealing with the force fields | ||
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