EPTHallucinate a few phoenixes, drain that energy, and hopefully your stalkers wont be completely useless.
Has anyone tried this in a real game? How did it go?
PvT - Hallucinate vs PDD, Terran Raven pushes
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Stationary
Sweden22 Posts
Hallucinate a few phoenixes, drain that energy, and hopefully your stalkers wont be completely useless. Has anyone tried this in a real game? How did it go? | ||
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phil.ipp
Austria1067 Posts
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ci_esteban
United States217 Posts
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
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Barca
United States418 Posts
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-{Cake}-
United States217 Posts
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GWash
United States153 Posts
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Aquafresh
United States824 Posts
On November 22 2010 06:46 GWash wrote: Looks pretty legit actually. If you scout >1 raven it would definitly be worth it to get 3 sentries and hallucinate.Would hallucinating stalkers possible be better? You get 2 of them No Phoenix fire two projectiles, and at a much faster rate, you will waste more PDD shots quickly with Phoenix. Plus they fly so they can get a really good angle on a PDD and maybe draw some marine fire if you're lucky. I've been trying to use hallucination to counter PDD with mixed results since I saw that liquipedia article months ago that mentioned fake units still wasted shots. | ||
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Oathmaster
Canada81 Posts
On November 22 2010 06:46 GWash wrote: Looks pretty legit actually. If you scout >1 raven it would definitly be worth it to get 3 sentries and hallucinate.Would hallucinating stalkers possible be better? You get 2 of them Would be about even since phoenix do 2 shots, but would hide your hallucinated units better so he doesn't know what just hit him  | ||
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Altsa
Finland990 Posts
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jmack
Canada285 Posts
Meaning if the hallucinations are exposed as hallucinations does the PDD energy still get used? Or would you need to shoot the raven down first ( damn near impossible in range of the pdd lol ) | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
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Zozo
Brazil2579 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
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T0fuuu
Australia2275 Posts
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MayorITC
Korea (South)798 Posts
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GWash
United States153 Posts
On November 22 2010 07:14 T0fuuu wrote: Isnt the raven a DETECTOR though? So wont terran units know they are hallucinations and wont shoot them? That isn't the point. The idea is that point defence drone will waste energy blocking hallu shots. Nobody has confirmed that PDDs will waste energy if the ravens detect the hallucenations. | ||
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gnutz
Germany666 Posts
whats the matter with the detector? you only need the hallucinations to shoot the pdds, not to distract the terran. hallucinations dont disappear if they get detected ? it could mean you dont need a stargate and real phoenixes to deal with these pushes anymore, just research hallucination. i just hope its not a bug and blizzard will fix it. | ||
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Reason.SC2
Canada1047 Posts
That doesn't mean using hallucinations isn't useful but I mean why not just use the energy for guardian shield and forcefields and focus down the PDD instead. I suppose if the PDD is placed in such a way that you can't focus it down without losing all your sentries then hallucinations is the only way to nullify it. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On November 22 2010 07:18 gnutz wrote: wow, i actually think it could change the matchup. Highly doubtful since this has been known for...well, I think the first time I read about this here was two months ago To cut the long story short: not worth it - it's not about hallucination, it's about sentries and their energy. You need to first tech hallucination, second build many sentries early enough to build up energy and third use the sentry-energy only for hallucinating stuff and not for forcefields/guardian shield. | ||
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ExO_
United States2316 Posts
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gnutz
Germany666 Posts
On November 22 2010 07:22 sleepingdog wrote: Highly doubtful since this has been known for...well, I think the first time I read about this here was two months ago To cut the long story short: not worth it - it's not about hallucination, it's about sentries and their energy. You need to first tech hallucination, second build many sentries early enough to build up energy and third use the sentry-energy only for hallucinating stuff and not for forcefields/guardian shield. It seems like not many people knew this. But you need to test whats more worth it: researching hallucinations and +1 gateway for sentries or a starport for phoenixes to deal with these raven pushes. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
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Parra
United States152 Posts
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ExO_
United States2316 Posts
On November 22 2010 07:28 gnutz wrote: It seems like not many people knew this. But you need to test whats more worth it: researching hallucinations and +1 gateway for sentries or a starport for phoenixes to deal with these raven pushes. it's not entirely comparable. Hallucination costs 100/100 and synergies with a unit that (most of the time) you'll already be building. If you want to include the cost of another gateway, thats 250/100. A stargate is 150/100 then 150/100 per phoenix. If you are facing banshee heavy play, then perhaps it'll be more valuable to invest into phoenix, but if you are holding off an MMM/Raven push with maybe 1-2 banshees then its by far more cost efficient to use hallucinated phoenixes. | ||
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HocusPocus
Germany214 Posts
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Darkstar_X
United States197 Posts
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EntertainMe
864 Posts
1. Hallucinated Phoenix are the best of absorb PDD. (Shown in one of the qualifier game) 2. Hallucinated Phoenix are good meatshield vs vikings. (Same game, just later stage, protoss goes typical collosi ball while t gets MM, Viking, Raven. Toss used 4-5 hallucinated phoenix to abuse/soak up the slow attacks of Vikings, instead of collosi being hit, and also to nullify PDD used by terran). Its ok strategy. But at this stage, toss already won long before. Its just a fancy move not that cost effective. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
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sikyon
Canada1045 Posts
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Stationary
Sweden22 Posts
On November 22 2010 07:14 T0fuuu wrote: Isnt the raven a DETECTOR though? So wont terran units know they are hallucinations and wont shoot them? Yes but that's not the point. The PDD ai still burns energy on the fake-phoenixes shots even if he has a raven there to detect that they're hallucinations. That is the point. | ||
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red_hq
Canada450 Posts
It works 100% hallued phoenix attacking the raven that created the PDD drains the PDD energy, obviously within the PDD range. So even if they know its hallus the PDD drains its energy on the hallus. Great find. | ||
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IAttackYou
United States330 Posts
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Fharoc
Canada32 Posts
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Stijn
Netherlands363 Posts
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
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FuzzyLord
253 Posts
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
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Stationary
Sweden22 Posts
On November 22 2010 11:00 FuzzyLord wrote: By the time your enemy has 3 ravens, you should already have a decent amount of stalkers to make the PDD almost useless. I would say using sentries for GS and FF is a lot better. Yeah but 3 ravens was more of a demonstration. Personally I think 100/100 is worth nullfying 1 or 2 PDD's On November 22 2010 11:11 Jayrod wrote: fyi, if you choose to hallucinate the stalker it makes 2 stalkers for one hallucinate, this is probably better than using phoenix that they know are fake Personally I don't agree, the phoenix have 2 projectiles(?) or at least fires a lot faster, and don't block my concave like some hallucinated stalkers would, but thats just my opinion. | ||
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EyMiller245
United States45 Posts
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Lancette
China120 Posts
and is it Hallucinate Colossus to crash Force Field? | ||
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Blimp
45 Posts
Terrans have no melee units outside of the SCV, this makes Guardian Shields useful, to some extent, against every unit the Terrans have in their arsenal. For practicalities sake I'd say that doing this would require a little too much micro than it is worth. Just focus down the PDD with a few stalkers or back out of the fight . | ||
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
On November 22 2010 07:22 sleepingdog wrote: Highly doubtful since this has been known for...well, I think the first time I read about this here was two months ago To cut the long story short: not worth it - it's not about hallucination, it's about sentries and their energy. You need to first tech hallucination, second build many sentries early enough to build up energy and third use the sentry-energy only for hallucinating stuff and not for forcefields/guardian shield. On November 22 2010 07:29 Reborn8u wrote: I really don't think this is useful, if you spent that much gas on sentries and hallucination, his army is probably going to roll yours. Especially since this will take away energy for guardian shields and ff's. I have had some success with hallucinating colossus, especially when I have a few real ones out. They soak up lots of damage and because Terrans usually try to focus fire them, they tend to sacrifice too much trying to snipe them. You people act like this is a huge investment. 100/100 for hallucination +50/100 for A sentry. You will obviously need 1-2 more sentries or at least a sentry that can hallucinate twice. Remember you only have to do this if PDD is a problem and if you see a high viking count or medivac count chances are he doesn't have a techlab port (and doesn't want to swap cause this will slow down the other port units) and you don't need to worry about it for the time being. It seems pretty standard to get zealot sentry and stalker to deny early aggression from the terrans right? So if they don't early push you just set aside that sentry and let it build energy it should have enough for 1-2 hallucinations by the time you would need it. And like others have said its not a useless spell to have around it allows you to scout quicker as observers need a speed upgrade to be anywhere close to as fast as a phoenix and would allow you to keep any observers you have already built in a safer spot. Its not like you have to have your observer hovering over the enemy base 24/7 in order to know when he is pushing out and what he is going an occasional phonenix will be more than enough. People that don't even bother to try new things (whether it is NEW or not is irrelevant) sicken me. It would be like people saying bah why would I get combat shields marines are weak and die. Someone makes a thread saying wow when you get shields and medivacs it really does help and someone immediately complains saying no 100/100 is too expensive and the marines will still die just as fast to tank/storm/baneling/collosus so its completely worthless. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On November 22 2010 17:10 terranghost wrote: You people act like this is a huge investment. 100/100 for hallucination +50/100 for A sentry. You will obviously need 1-2 more sentries or at least a sentry that can hallucinate twice. Remember you only have to do this if PDD is a problem and if you see a high viking count or medivac count chances are he doesn't have a techlab port (and doesn't want to swap cause this will slow down the other port units) and you don't need to worry about it for the time being. It seems pretty standard to get zealot sentry and stalker to deny early aggression from the terrans right? So if they don't early push you just set aside that sentry and let it build energy it should have enough for 1-2 hallucinations by the time you would need it. And like others have said its not a useless spell to have around it allows you to scout quicker as observers need a speed upgrade to be anywhere close to as fast as a phoenix and would allow you to keep any observers you have already built in a safer spot. Its not like you have to have your observer hovering over the enemy base 24/7 in order to know when he is pushing out and what he is going an occasional phonenix will be more than enough. People that don't even bother to try new things (whether it is NEW or not is irrelevant) sicken me. It would be like people saying bah why would I get combat shields marines are weak and die. Someone makes a thread saying wow when you get shields and medivacs it really does help and someone immediately complains saying no 100/100 is too expensive and the marines will still die just as fast to tank/storm/baneling/collosus so its completely worthless. LOL you are the one theory-crafting, it seems like those here that don't think it's useful are the ones that actually DID try it out. But please, use it, test it in real games (not the unit-tester...) then come back and post replays. The more sophisticated problems behind it: if the terran gets a raven he has a starport with a tech-lab. If I scout a terran with a techlab-starport, chances are high, that he has TWO starports with techlabs and goes for banshees. The one techlab-starport-raven-mass-MM is very rare, I haven't encountered it for a long time. The response to two starports seems obvious - you need "real" phoenixes, hallucinated ones aren't gonna cut it vs the banshees. If by any chance my opponent "did" go one starport raven + MM then the MM is the problem and not the PDD. In this case I need ALL (literally) of my sentry-energy to fight vs the bio-ball. Seriously, when was the last time you've seen a PvT where the P was sitting around on tons of unused sentry-energy when fighting against MM? You see, the reason why hallucinated phoenixes are in general not used vs PDD are twofold: a) Vs mass-MM + PDD I need all the force-fields/guardian-shields I can get to live and see my colossi do damage. Two more forcefields can save me the day if this means I can complete the forcefield-wall and my colossi won't be sniped. b) Vs two port banshee + PDD I need a stargate anyways. | ||
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413X
Sweden203 Posts
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Setev
Malaysia390 Posts
On November 22 2010 07:16 MayorITC wrote: If you have enough sentries to hallucinate units, you're better off focus firing the PDD with the sentries and using the energy for Guardian Shield and Forcefields. I totally agree on this. | ||
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Stationary
Sweden22 Posts
I mean cmon it's pretty situational, you're not always in a position where you can get close enough to focus it down with sentries. Especially not if the terran is incorporating tanks. Keep in mind that sentries in fact have very short range, and pdd actually has a huge area that it covers. | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
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XdsZmX
21 Posts
Early game, i doubt it's very effective since you definitely want those FFs to win battles as well as GS, and since you need warpgate research before hallucination. Additionally, most players won't have very many ravens early game anyways (not that most terrans even get many ravens vs toss), | ||
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Dragon2950
United States23 Posts
@ sleepingdog It may not be "gamebreaking" but it still can give you a little edge in that big 200/200 fight thats at least a few shots that's not getting blocked. but imo it'd be better to have 2 or 3 ht up front for feedbacks it not storms too. | ||
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skirmisheR
Sweden451 Posts
 thanks for the tip lol | ||
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ocdscale
United States61 Posts
And keep in mind that the hallu units won't be tanking because the Raven will reveal them as hallucinations (for the most part). So the only use is trading energy for energy. | ||
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eGoTricKShoT
United States46 Posts
On November 22 2010 07:22 sleepingdog wrote: Highly doubtful since this has been known for...well, I think the first time I read about this here was two months ago To cut the long story short: not worth it - it's not about hallucination, it's about sentries and their energy. You need to first tech hallucination, second build many sentries early enough to build up energy and third use the sentry-energy only for hallucinating stuff and not for forcefields/guardian shield. I think you may still be missing the point though. It's doubtful that at high levels people are going to think so narrow mindedly like 'there MAY be ravens in that push, so i NEED to find a way to rid the PDDs energy'. However, late game, if Hallucination has been researched and PDDs have been thrown down, it makes a lot of sense to plant down hallu phoenix or stalker and FF the PDD to drain energy. Especially if your sentries have maxed energy, as they can still throw down force fields or gaurdian shields. | ||
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DreamSailor
Canada433 Posts
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Darkstar_X
United States197 Posts
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Psymage2
United States50 Posts
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