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Mythol
Sweden24 Posts
I do often watch my own replays, and i always look at day9's videos but i dont seem to get better. At the moment im around 350 wins / 350 losses with zerg as my main race. So i want to ask the forum, what makes a player diamond? Is it proper scouting, unit mixes? You tell me. What difference have you learned from the platinum to the diamond? sorry for the grammar/spelling. **UPDATE thanks to you guys im currently at 2700 diamond!**** | ||
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love.less
United Kingdom293 Posts
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Vertig0
United States196 Posts
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Rockondudes
Romania5 Posts
Even apm has it's purpose.. (if you're a zerg or a protoss, as terran you just mass marines and close your eyes most of your games).. My last advice is .. know the game, know every unit, every "counter"and all that. Basically it comes down to mechanics, the better you know them, the better you will be at this game | ||
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Mythol
Sweden24 Posts
On November 22 2010 02:57 Vertig0 wrote: If you haven't seen Day9 daily #208 (coaching DjWheat), I highly recommend it... It definitely taught me more things I could improve on. thank you! That daily actually helped alot, cheers | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
My guess is that your mechanics are just not quite at a Diamond level. Keep practicing, and focus on one thing to work on each game (Queens, supply block, low money for example) so that you don't get overwhelmed. | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
also other things that will specifically help ur game improve: do not get supply blocked, ever. do not miss injections. no one is perfect, but try to be as on top of them as possible. spread creep asap. these are the things that got me to diamond. | ||
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Dysk
Singapore44 Posts
Another, to have a zergling at the bottom of your opponent's ramp, and to periodically scout. Overlord spreading around to make to alert you to drops mainly. And perhaps the biggest change to my play that got me to diamond is that I began to win games by starving the opponent out on his 2 bases to my 3/4 and crushing his final all-in push, rather than going in for the kill myself. It may be just personal preference, but I've felt like playing zerg passively is what plays to their strength. Spreading creep helps, of course, but to me it isn't essential to get into diamond. It may separate the 2000's from the 1000's, but ultimately it's just an extension of controlling the map as zerg, and knowing what's going on. | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
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Endorsed
Netherlands1221 Posts
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Gnorme
Canada5 Posts
On November 22 2010 04:25 Dysk wrote: One main change that helped me into diamond was watching a video about making just enough units to fend off early pressure and nothing more. I think it was a day9 daily, and the main point it made was that every excess unit that you make to deal with pressure early means one less drone. and for Zerg, drones are everything. Another, to have a zergling at the bottom of your opponent's ramp, and to periodically scout. Overlord spreading around to make to alert you to drops mainly. And perhaps the biggest change to my play that got me to diamond is that I began to win games by starving the opponent out on his 2 bases to my 3/4 and crushing his final all-in push, rather than going in for the kill myself. It may be just personal preference, but I've felt like playing zerg passively is what plays to their strength. Spreading creep helps, of course, but to me it isn't essential to get into diamond. It may separate the 2000's from the 1000's, but ultimately it's just an extension of controlling the map as zerg, and knowing what's going on. This is what really made the difference for me. Learning to play the passive zerg style, and just out macro the opponent. Scouting is really important when playing passive. | ||
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DarkOmen
Canada72 Posts
In other words, I had a decent ability to macro, but I was doing it mindlessly on autopilot. After reading/hearing so much about when to build drones, I really started focusing on that and it improved my play a LOT. Every time you're about to spam out 10 drones, think about whether it's safe to do so. Are you going to need units in 30-40 seconds from now? If so, you better not make drones right now. The opposite is also true. As I'm sure you've heard many times, it's very bad to build a large standing army that just, sorta.. stands around. Especially as zerg, since that army COULD have been drones. I would say it took me a good 20 games of focusing on scout timing (which allows you to more accurately determine appropriate drone timing) before I really started to feel I had a decent grasp on it, but it's still a work in progress. For those who care, I'm approx. 1350-1400 diamond, with ~400 bonus pool. | ||
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DiZasteR
Netherlands84 Posts
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Mythol
Sweden24 Posts
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
Generally if you are below diamond, even at high platinum, chances are good that you are lacking macro. Either you are not expanding enough, not making enough hatcheries, not spending your money, or most commonly, you are not making enough drones. | ||
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hello31
16 Posts
Another thing is always be mindful of your position relative to the terrain on the map. For the most part you dont want to engage in a choke, unless they are bottlenecked and you have a concave at the top of the ramp. You want to engage in wide area's where you can surround their army. Unlike protoss and terran when you make a building, you lose a drone. It might not seem like a lot but it easy to forget to replace the drone you used up and fall behind economically. Overlord positioning and ling spotting will let you know when the other army moves out and gives you time to react. Most likely though, its a macro issue thats holding you back. I'm pretty sure you can get into diamond if you mass well enough. Just watch one of your replays and note how many times you miss larva injections. And just make notes of your drone saturation and expansion timings. And make sure you are making units as you are fighting. Try to select your drones and actually count them when you play so you know if you have enough drones per base. | ||
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FuzzyLord
253 Posts
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TALegion
United States1187 Posts
On November 22 2010 04:01 Antisocialmunky wrote: You know you are a diamond zerg if you die because you build too many drones. I must be better than FruitDealer then. | ||
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Mythol
Sweden24 Posts
<3 / Mythol | ||
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b_unnies
3579 Posts
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DImported
Australia149 Posts
You need overlords positioned around your base and dropping creep at potential expansions. You should have zerglings at each watch tower at all times and a zergling at the base of their entrance. | ||
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Deathfairy
148 Posts
On November 22 2010 04:01 Antisocialmunky wrote: You know you are a diamond zerg if you die because you build too many drones. QFT | ||
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RemrafGrez
United States180 Posts
On November 22 2010 04:01 Antisocialmunky wrote: You know you are a diamond zerg if you die because you build too many drones. This is funny but so often true. I have a theory that sub 2000 point diamond, ZvP you just have to stop making drones around 36-40 drones and only make ling/roach. Maybe baneling. I play a little zerg and haven't lost on ladder yet vs P with this. Obviously scout and prevent any cheese and scout for a stargate later. But mainly get a pool around 14, get ling speed and expand. 2 gas max. That's about it. I've only seen a Protoss keep up, in rare cases, and then you are on two bases and he's on one. Who is going to win that? Eventually I'll get burrow for roach healing. Also crreep spread is critical in case they go blink stalker. See this pro match my boy... SPOILER ALERT. http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens3/vod/1336 Game 3. The Zerg even over droned by making I think 48 drones... which almost cost him vs. a 4/5 gate build. But he was able to pull out of it. If the Protoss fast expanded then run over him earlier. Roaches beat fast expands. If he starts making more immortals and stalkers just make more lings. | ||
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Mythol
Sweden24 Posts
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Blu3
United States126 Posts
Oh yeah, and scouting... diamond players scout better. Zerg is reactionary. Scout scout scout. Seriously. If you drone and scout, you'll know when you gotta make units and when you can drone. I tend to go overkill a bit and send in a speedling up the ramp or to the base like every minute, minute and a half, but sometimes, the stuff back in the base really just needs an overlord sac. | ||
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vaLentine88
United States61 Posts
Building drones, pooling larvae when necessary, scouting at the right time. You know you are a high diamond zerg when you start to dissect each match-up and positions on each map. | ||
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Nerski
United States1095 Posts
Needless to say like you I got frustrated, but due to some side jobs I do had some extra scratch and hired the services of a coach. The best peace of advice based on my experince with this that I can give you is have someone else analyze your replays who is 2000 + diamond. Then let them give you a listing of what they see as your deficencies. You may find the things you think you're good at and things you think you're bad at may not really be what's holding you back. It could quite possibly be the exact opposite. I know for myself I thought I had good macro etc. and only build timings and unit comps were holding me back. Turns out mechanically speaking I was a little slow, and my macro was actually pretty sub par. I was spending money previously but teching to quickly it turned out. So yeah have someone who's up their already look over some of your replays even if you have to pony up a couple bucks to at least get some pointers. Might get the help here if you just post a replay and say 'what am i doing wrong', | ||
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Nerski
United States1095 Posts
On December 03 2010 09:50 Blu3 wrote: Top Platinum here, and honestly, diamond is something I've given up on. I end up doing too much cheesy stuff to try and just win games fast and get promoted, when really, a diamond player learns to counter cheese. Although... I'm typing this after losing a to a diamond protoss that just did a void ray rush.... hate those things. Oh yeah, and scouting... diamond players scout better. Zerg is reactionary. Scout scout scout. Seriously. If you drone and scout, you'll know when you gotta make units and when you can drone. I tend to go overkill a bit and send in a speedling up the ramp or to the base like every minute, minute and a half, but sometimes, the stuff back in the base really just needs an overlord sac. I wouldn't give up hope on diamond, i'd instead try to focus less on unit compositions and look to mechanics. From everything i've gathered the difference between a top tier diamond and everyone else is mechanics. Which all boil down to speed of execution and macro. Unit comp is really small peas in comparrisson and can much more easily be learned. | ||
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bNy
84 Posts
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Mythol
Sweden24 Posts
 DROOL | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On November 22 2010 02:44 Mythol wrote: What difference have you learned from the platinum to the diamond? The difference between platinum and diamond is the ability to properly execute a thought out plan. - Never get supply blocked (for long - and 10 seconds is long). - Never have many minerals. - Execute your build "perfectly". I would recommend you simply pick one build, that have a good attack in the 5 - 7 minute period, and practice it untill you got it down perfectly. Scouting, decision making, all that ... makes the difference between high and medium / low diamond. Anyone below diamond doesn't know how to execute a build properly. That's my view, and I am sticking to it  | ||
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Denorian
Sweden2 Posts
I went diamond as zerg without any build orders and well thought through strats. But then as I improved, those things came naturally. (i'm 2100+ diamond atm). | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
Beginner – Macro Fundamentals 1. Are you constantly building workers? 2. Are you preventing supply block all game long? 3. Are you spending all of your resources? 4. Do you correctly position your units and structures? 5. Does your play have a solid macro foundation? a. Does your plan include expansions or are you committing to unnecessary “all-in” attacks? b. Do you expand while attacking? c. Does your plan include a third base? Intermediate – Strategy 1. Do you practice build orders and choose builds that are appropriate for the particular map and match-up? a) Do you know how to analyze a map in order to make strategic decisions? 2. Are you constantly scouting and adapting appropriately to your opponents play? a) Do you have effective scouting techniques and timings? b) Are you often in the dark about your opponents plan? c) Do you know how to respond correctly to your opponents plan? 3. Do you take calculated risks and try to do with less in order to get an edge on your opponent? a) Do you find yourself with too many units after defending an attack? b) Do you build unnecessary units instead of workers out of fear of an attack? c) Do you prepare defenses for techs that are unlikely? 4. Do you fight for map control and the watch towers, and can you exploit immobility? a) Are you aware of the location of your opponents army at all times? b) Do you have vision of much of the map? c) Do you make attempts to contain your opponent or control key positions on the map? Advanced – Mechanics 1. Do you have an effective hotkey setup and maintain a solid APM with it? a) Do you use the mouse often for things that can be done with the keyboard? b) Are you constantly active or do you often stare at your base or army? c) Are your hotkeys set up for ease of use and convenient repetition? 2. Do you properly control, micromanage, and multi-task during engagements? a) Do you find yourself watching a battle through to its conclusion unnecessarily? b) Do you find your resources stockpiled after an engagement? c) Do you find yourself out of position or losing units due to poor control and micro? d) Can you harass your opponent while managing your base? 3. Do you keep your eyes focused on the mini-map for most of the game? a) Do you find your focus to be on units and your base most often? b) Are you often surprised by an attack or drop in your base? c) Can you consistently snipe scouting units or dropships before they reach your base? Psychology 1. Do you make excuses for losses or ignore mistakes instead of working on them? 2. Do you avoid laddering or competing out of fear of losing? | ||
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Mythol
Sweden24 Posts
IM DIAMOND MOTHERF*CKERS!! I love you all. You helped me achieve my goal and i would never be here if it wasent for u guys. LOOOOVE from Mythol | ||
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Mythol
Sweden24 Posts
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vix86
12 Posts
On November 22 2010 04:25 Dysk wrote: It may be just personal preference, but I've felt like playing zerg passively is what plays to their strength. Idra has pretty much said something exactly like this somewhere. He would rather play a macro game and just wait for the enemy to come to him and then deal with it Kyrix (sp?) style. Of course deny expos and the such, but macro, macro, macro. | ||
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Manimal_pro
Romania991 Posts
On December 03 2010 12:51 bNy wrote: 14 hatch, have scout with 2-4 slings, build up, muta contain, steamroll... 14 hatch, lose to marine scv rush, gulp ) | ||
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Mythol
Sweden24 Posts
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
On December 07 2010 07:02 vix86 wrote: Idra has pretty much said something exactly like this somewhere. He would rather play a macro game and just wait for the enemy to come to him and then deal with it Kyrix (sp?) style. Of course deny expos and the such, but macro, macro, macro. my natural tendency is to turtle as zerg. however, there are definetely opportuinities to apply solid pressure, especially against toss. ive found early game zerg has the advantage and pressing it can often give u a lead. you dont have to win but if u kill a number of his probes then u are in a good spot. what im saying is mix it up. if u feel like u are in the lead test his defenses, if he is tight then pull back, otherwise try to do some damage. if you had a decent army and killed his entire 4 gate force, then make another round of units and go kill his expo or contain him in his base. in this situation u can produce faster then he can and have an advantage. | ||
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Mythol
Sweden24 Posts
On December 07 2010 07:11 Manimal_pro wrote: 14 hatch, lose to marine scv rush, gulp )When i see that kind of aggression i try to get a spine up while i defend with lings/drones/queen. And if possible maybe throw down a roach warren just in case | ||
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Mythol
Sweden24 Posts
Is this to much of a setback to delay the queen or what do you guys think? | ||
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MobiusOne
United States106 Posts
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=member_replays&member_id=170652 | ||
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Mythol
Sweden24 Posts
On December 07 2010 07:52 MobiusOne wrote: You can watch my replays if you want, Im a 1500 Diamond zerg, but dont take them too seriously, theres alot of stuff to work on, but this might help http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=member_replays&member_id=170652 thanks man, ill take a look! | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
Watch your replays, and look at Queen energy. Keep it as low as possible. This is a key indicator of poor macro, together with not building drones/units at the right times. I got to diamond when I first got this game, knowing absolutely nothing about either Terran or Protoss tech trees, or good unit compositions or anything. All I did was make a ton of units with my half decent Brood war macro. | ||
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BigBossX
United Kingdom357 Posts
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Mythol
Sweden24 Posts
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Neo.NEt
United States785 Posts
More seriously, you're suppose to make only enough units to survive and just mass drones with every other larva (as many here have said). This obviously isn't easy... just make sure you know exactly when he's moving out and do everything you can to keep him in his base. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
I always play for macro, and I think that there's a few important things about being at diamond: 1. Scouting. Always know what your opponent is doing. Always think to yourself, do I know what he's doing? If not, send a ling to the front of their base. Do you now know? If not, suicide an overlord. Learn to recognize builds by what they have or what they don't. For instance, one barracks without add-on + bunker behind a wall-in = almost always Banshees. 2. Spawn larvae and good hotkey setup. It's incredibly important to manage your Queens in the early game. It'll probably slip a bit in the midgame and that's perfectly all right, but concentrate hard on managing your queens early on when not many things are going on. Good hotkeys help you with managing the Queens and your hatcheries. 3. Maintain focus. Even if you are being harrassed, always remember to make units, and remember which buildings you should get, and so on. You need to be able to think about multiple things at once and always remember the goal of your play. 4. Managing maxed armies. You will need to know what to do with your army when it's maxed, and what's a good composition for a maxed army. Sometimes, if the Protoss is getting Colossi and you're like 170 supply but your spire is only halfway done, it's a good idea to stockpile min/gas and wait until you get your spire to add in some corruptors. When your army is maxed you also can't just suicide it in, you need to fall back at a good time to reinforce your army to get a better unit mix and so on. 5. Creep spread. It's a good idea to start making a third Queen early on and making massive amounts of Creep tumors. It's going to help so much that the cost of 150 minerals is almost completely neglicible. Spreading creep all over the map gives you so much vision and mapcontrol that it'll make everything you do much, much easier. 6. Proper build order. Practice one or two for every match-up and learn it as well as you can. Use YABOT or something similiar and practice a build until 10 minutes again and again until you have the timings down. It'll be more than worth it when you'll have a 15-supply advantage by 7 minutes into the game. 7. Expand too much rather than too little. It's very common to get stuck at 3 bases as a Zerg, but if you spread the creep well enough, you can easily control and hold additional expansions. It's pretty amazing how often they survive and how large of an advantage you can sometimes get when you go up like 5 bases to 3. 8. Drone timing. You have to be able to make a lot of drones, and to not be stuck without enough drones and enough excess minerals to expand. Watch the day9 daily. 9. Gas is amazing. Always in new expos start the double gas immediately. It also is a good idea to expand alot and even though you won't have many drones on all the mineral fields, if you have like 8-10 gas your army is going to be incredibly strong. There's some things I can think of off the top of my head. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
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Grend
1600 Posts
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Mythol
Sweden24 Posts
On November 22 2010 02:44 Mythol wrote: Hi there fellow starcraft 2 players. Lately i have been feeling like i dont improve my gameplay, its like i hit a brick wall at 1600 (Platinum Zerg) Im active in some starcraft communitys and read alot of strategy tips with good build orders etc. The problem is not that i dont know of a good build order or the games "unit counters" I do often watch my own replays, and i always look at day9's videos but i dont seem to get better. At the moment im around 350 wins / 350 losses with zerg as my main race. So i want to ask the forum, what makes a player diamond? Is it proper scouting, unit mixes? You tell me. What difference have you learned from the platinum to the diamond? sorry for the grammar/spelling. **UPDATE thanks to you guys im currently at 2700 diamond!**** LINK TO THE NEW THREAD: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191099 | ||
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