EPT[G] PvZ Overview - Page 13
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Sanguinarius
United States3427 Posts
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On November 14 2010 19:44 Plexa wrote: This has already been converted into Liquipedia  Draco vs Dalailamer is an example of a typical PvZ. Identifying the mistakes that draco makes in this game should help your own understanding of the matchup tenfold. Sorrow vs Orz is an excellent example of a number of these principles - hallu scouting, pressure, good FF use etc. The other sorrow vs orz game is also an excellent example of how zerg can use muta/ling to completely dominate the crap out of you if you try to just use blinkstalkers to deal with muta. 2 stargate phoenix is almost necessary against a committed muta player, IMO. Only way around it is to have perfect scouting with hallucinations and hit the 3rd with perfect timing. This timing is very thin, though. | ||
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
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justle
United States174 Posts
I appreciate reading that even the OP thinks it's impossible to beat a Zerg on Scrap Station. I think that's the worst of several maps that defending muta pressure is extremely difficult on. I still enjoyed this guide and it made me feel a little bit better about this matchup. Here's to hoping Blizzard simplifies our tech trees a little bit so our timings match T and Z timings a little better. I'd love to see HT with one or both of their upgrades out of the gate. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
The reasoning for double stargate is it allows you to pump out both your initial phoenix and a VR at the same time and the difference is huge. I toss my stargates down ~6 mins (you can afford ~2 cannons beforehand) and I have my Phoenix and VR up before 8 mins which is around when you can reasonably expect any significant roach push off 2 bases (any 1 base roach rush should be easily scouted) and a minute or 2 before mutas will hit. And while the VR with a few sentry/stalkers/cannons will hold off early pressure, the main thing about the VR is it allows you to immediately go on the offensive, while still building up your ground army. That greedy zerg who took an early 3rd? You make them pay as they have nothing to defend vs your VR/phoenix. The VR makes a huge difference as it can shoot down spores and is not limited by energy for killing drones. This absolutely forces the zerg player to go hydras, so you can blind tech to colossi (not that you need to with phoenix to scout), and now you have a phoenix/VR army to demolish any corruptors that come into play. I've found this puts you in a very good position in the mid-game. You have good map control, very well defended vs harass, and should have a sizable ground army while you tech as they scramble to pump hydras. Obviously a 2-base quick tech to hydras will cause you problems and you will be forced to toss down additional cannons, but in the current metagame it's becoming rare to see early hydras, at least where I'm at ~1800 diamond. And I completely agree adding VR's do your death ball late game adds a completely new dimension to your army. They automatically hedge you vs broodlords and ultras plus protects your colossi from corruptors. VR's DPS is also IMO significantly underrated. Their DPS doesn't look great on paper, but in-game it feels completely different due to them being able to position themselves to attack in your 200/200 ball very easily since they are air units, plus their attack mechanic causes them to have very little damage wasted due to overkill, unlike stalkers. | ||
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Shadrak
United States490 Posts
Took me 10 games or so to really get into the stride of it but boy did it pay off. One thing I learned a little late when switching from zealot-heavy builds: you have to tech to Collosi faster. While zealots can handle an early ling or hydra (off creep) push with no problem, stalkers get into real trouble especially if you are on an open nat and FFing is difficult. I found throwing the robo fac down immediately after expanding to be critical. | ||
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Dreamer.T
United States3584 Posts
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Proto_Protoss
United States495 Posts
I'm sorry, I really value your opinion as one of the highest of all ppl here, but this is just wrong imho. Phoenixes kill Mutas INCREDIBLY cost-effectively, although - as with every zerg-unit - the effectiveness decreases with upgrades on both sides. I really hope you take this critique not personally but try to test it in the unit-tester. The protoss-player has the micro-advantage, so nothing is lost by just a-moving the units into another, if anything, protoss profits more if both players know how to micro. Just a simple example: with 20 phoenixes (3000/2000)vs 25 mutas (3000/2000) both unupgraded the ridiculous number of 11 phoenixes survives. Take upgrades into account and mutas do better because the average "profit" from upgrades is higher. Still doesn't change the fact that zerg can NOT, like NEVER rely on pure mutas vs pure phoenixes. You can keep up production-wise due to chrono-boosting both stargates, you only have to be careful to not lose phoenixes early when you are outmatched in numbers. Also zerg cannot really expand safely because mutas are slower than phoenixes, you can always lift off some drones/queens, zerg can NOT defend three bases without any ground-support like more queens than needed or spores, which further decreases the effectiveness of the overall zerg-gameplay. Maybe I'm wrong, but the maths disagrees and since phoenixes are so easy to micro I've never seen a game where a protoss would lose air-control with phoenixes vs mutas. EDIT: Forgot to mention that the perfect replay for what I mean would be Sen vs Socke on Desert Oasis. Socke goes for a 5 gate timing attack, does NOT win outright (but deals serious damage) and gets 2 stargates immediately after he sees the first mutas. This shut down Sen COMPLETELY, Sen went hydras and got stomped into the ground by colossi/HT (one of Socke's strongest games at MLG). So I think it's fair to say that going phoenixes later on is also very possible even if you didn't open with them. I disagree, If you decide to make Phoenix by the time you see mutalisk its already to late if you see the mutalisk there will be somewhere around 5-8 mutalisk in the air. by the time you throw down 2 stargates (If you get your natural up and saturated) it still takes times to get phoenix. Also the investment for phoenix is as follows. 150/150 for stargates x2 300/300 + 150/100 per phoenix 500 gas for the first 2 phoenix meanwhile the Zerg is either taking their third and getting ready for hive tech to Ultralisk. So how do you deal with the mutalisk harass while your Phoenix are getting prepped make more stalkers? Assuming you make the double stargate after taking your natural, your gas supply will be low. your already investing 300 gas for the stargate. By making stargates you are spending gas which means less gas for stalkers or if you just go mass stalkers you wont be able to support Mass stalkers + constant Phoenix production. I also forgot to mention that while you are building your stargate the zerg can just mass mutalisk you used the example 20 phoenix- 25 mutalisk have you tried to do 2 phoenix vs 10 mutalisk? Its very difficult to try micro/macro with phoenix, yea they can kite Mutalisk forever theoretically. While your doing fancy micro with your phoenix the opponent will either get a few corruptors, or just going ultras and bust your Gateway army down. | ||
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CruelZeratul
Germany4588 Posts
A question to those who have actually played according to these guidelines: What is a good time/seems to be a good tim to get Hallucination? If I want to do the usual 3 Gate expand should I get it before/after I expanded, or to any different timing? | ||
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Akash
Romania113 Posts
And ur right PvZ is the most beatifull matchup atm,when played by 2 players of equal caliber. Its very entartaining to watch. What i have to add...i dont like mutas,that due to the fact most of our BW anti-muta weapons were removed. I refer here to: -Full splash archons,not the less splashy ones we got now. Also note that due to the fact that geysers in sc 2 are completely depleted,we dont see the giant archon armies in late late pvz like we did in bw. -Also by the removal of Dark Archon(an unit despized by many,but like all BW units,it had its uses) means its no more Maelstrom+Storm combo. -Replacing of corsairs with phoenixes is the most worse design decision in all the sc 2. The corsair had splash,if it was present in sc 2,zergs would at least try to magic box against them like they do against thors not just 1 A with theyr muta clump. Phoenix its an gimicky unit.And dont get me started on Disruption Web. Smart zergs laugh at phoenixes.If u open with stargate,they simply switch to hidras.If u dont and try to keep up with muta numbers u will fail,zerg always can make them faster then u. Yes,storm hurts them.But remember storm gets too late and from what ive heard,Blizzard wants to nerf storm cause of PvT.So because of marines dieing too fast to storm,we will loose our last viable weapon against mutas. Whenever i have the chance,i try to end the game before mutas pop.Hidras i can take them.Mass roach is just lol.Speedlings are more of an annoyance.Heck,even ultras and BL are just another unit,if u arrive on late game on EVEN FOOTING. But mutas prevent u from doing that.For me i do what terrans are trying to do,early pressure into killing the zerg fast.I dont want the game to be long,because toss losses. If zerg goes hidra/roach/corruptor ,any self respected toss can handle that,thats most of what ive seen climbing the ladder.That or muta/ling/bane. Yes,i can try cutesy stuff like DT warp prism drops.Heck i even tryed against an plat zerg buddy doing an speed warp prism collosi drop(similar to reaver drops).It failed lol.What im trying to say,im trying to experiment,but atm,mutas ruin most cutesy stuff. But the most grievous blow dealt to toss map presence was removing the DT from the templar archives.It was our only true map control unit(along reaver and corsair but those are removed).It made zergs think twice were they went.I think they did that because they removed ovie detection.What they were afraid that toss was going DT rush against zerg? Heck zergs would had adapted and got fast lair for detection or spores and it was ok. That is the most serious blow dealt to PvZ,DT are still an viable unit,but when ur at least on 3 bases.And when u get there,u arent using them like an map control unit,ur more like trying to give zerg an minor annoyance. In a word,they appear later then needed.Having DTs in mid game would had been sweet. Fluxed vaned voids are the future of PvZ,but ussualy that means u safely arrived in late game.Theyr the answer to ultra/BL,also they will be used to snipe hatches,threathen primary base..or even attempt hive sniping.But remember,having them alone means theyr prone to Fungal .If this becomes the next best thing,rest assured zergs will start having burrowed festors in key locations,w8ting for ur voids to pass and buy time for theyr AA units to come. And yeah,Mothership is still underused,and i think shes better used at PvZ then PvT. Last,regarding the overflow of minerals .Yes u can build expos and cannons.But if ur APM and multitasking is is up to it (im talking here at least 200-250 average apm) u can do warp prism drops filled with zeals.Nothing annoys the zerg as having an fresh expo,undefended and prone to drops. Toss must start using the prism again.They call it "Paper prism" but it even has a little more health then the shuttle.Shuttle has still flimpsy and toss still used it.Filled with zeals and the ocassional DT,or warping them on site,means the zerg has to watch out in many parts and have his forces spread thin. Pardon the "i miss BW toss units tone" if it sounded like that in the first part . | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
In addition, I feel you should make a distinction between ling roach -> hydra strategies vs ling hydra -> roach strategies as I believe they play very differently and have different proper responses by the protoss. | ||
pigscanfly
Singapore147 Posts
Two things I think you could add? I notice your build doesn't mention Infestors at all - I think they're a key part of Zerg late-mid to late game... and can really cause havoc with fungal growth. If I'm not wrong this affects all Protoss, including Colossi? Burrowed Infestors can really punish attempts at using speedrays to shut down the map through harass as a couple of FGs gives enough time for the Zerg army to come over and annihilate them. Likewise they can severely cramp your protoss-ball-of-death's mobility, and basically means if you engage wrongly you can't withdraw without losing a large chunk of your forces. Maybe if you have the time you could write something on how you deal with them? I understand they're gas heavy and crimp on Zerg's ability to transition to Ultra/Broodlord but mixing in a few is really strong :/ | ||
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Wartortle
Australia504 Posts
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antas
Indonesia300 Posts
Well done. Hope to see more articles about P. ^^ | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 17 2010 07:42 CruelZeratul wrote: Depends on how passive you're playing, if you don't plan on being aggressive at all then get hallucination as soon as warp finishes. If you're planning to pressure/timing attack then it's possible to skip it entirely. It doesn't make much sense to get hallucination if you can get the information you want in other ways!!Really good guide imo, I think I will build less Zealots now. A question to those who have actually played according to these guidelines: What is a good time/seems to be a good tim to get Hallucination? If I want to do the usual 3 Gate expand should I get it before/after I expanded, or to any different timing? On November 17 2010 08:28 4kmonk wrote: Fair comments, I'm going to go over the guide now and add in stuff and I'll take this into consideration when doing the rewritesHey, Plexa. I like your guide, but I want to point out some ways you could improve it. You seem to pigeonhole possible protoss strategies into 2 categories, sentry/stalker/collosi and immortal/stalker/templar. I know this is not your intention, but a noob reading it might take it that way. For example, vs a pure roach or roach ling composition early game, I believe the proper response is immortal/sentry/stalker and then transitioning to deal with the zerg transition. Someone following your guide exactly would think to skip immortals and head to collosi as fast as possible. This player will simply be outmacroed due to his inability to pressure or just be overrun in the time that it takes to get the collosi. Also, someone who sees muta/ling might get immortals when there is not even a roach den in sight. I believe that when fighting mutas, you have to devote almost all your gas into stopping mutas and only get immortals when you actually scout the roaches. My final example would be that someone employing IST might think it's alright not to get sentries on the way to teching to templar, because it's not ISST. Someone like this would get overrun quite quickly. In addition, I feel you should make a distinction between ling roach -> hydra strategies vs ling hydra -> roach strategies as I believe they play very differently and have different proper responses by the protoss. Mmm I dont necessarily agree - they're very similar for the most part. But if they're linging hard you typically want to add in Zealots, I think I need to add that.On November 17 2010 11:49 pigscanfly wrote: Infestors are underused in this matchup. Fungal can dominate stalker heavy armies Two things I think you could add? I notice your build doesn't mention Infestors at all - I think they're a key part of Zerg late-mid to late game... and can really cause havoc with fungal growth. If I'm not wrong this affects all Protoss, including Colossi? Burrowed Infestors can really punish attempts at using speedrays to shut down the map through harass as a couple of FGs gives enough time for the Zerg army to come over and annihilate them. Likewise they can severely cramp your protoss-ball-of-death's mobility, and basically means if you engage wrongly you can't withdraw without losing a large chunk of your forces. Maybe if you have the time you could write something on how you deal with them? I understand they're gas heavy and crimp on Zerg's ability to transition to Ultra/Broodlord but mixing in a few is really strong :/  I haven't included anything on them because Zergs refuse to use them for the most part. I don't understand the best counter to them as it stands because I don't experience it enough! Usually there isn't anything special you can do, except maybe include some temps for feedback. | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
For example, if zerg decides to go muta/ling for the midgame, if you let them get away with a 3rd without having spent adequate resources on lings and spine crawlers, it really puts you behind, especially if you are going the blink/storm route. By getting their 5th and 6th geysers so early, they can contain you with muta until you have storm and still get out a large roach army for when you are finally able to break out with the stalker/templar/sentry/zealot ball, making it very hard to win. If you are diligent with hallucination scouts, you can find a window to make them cancel their 3rd against both muta/ling and roach/hydra fairly often, since zerg players don't know the proper timing for taking the 3rd against various protoss build orders yet. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 20 2010 01:20 PJA wrote: I think you should add more information about the early midgame (basically everything between the time they place their tech builds and when their 3rd is secure). Maybe this just isn't a large component of your PvZ the way it is for me, but I feel like if you are playing a more reactive PvZ style that keeping your opponent honest with how early they take their 3rd is essential to winning the macro game. For example, if zerg decides to go muta/ling for the midgame, if you let them get away with a 3rd without having spent adequate resources on lings and spine crawlers, it really puts you behind, especially if you are going the blink/storm route. By getting their 5th and 6th geysers so early, they can contain you with muta until you have storm and still get out a large roach army for when you are finally able to break out with the stalker/templar/sentry/zealot ball, making it very hard to win. If you are diligent with hallucination scouts, you can find a window to make them cancel their 3rd very often against both muta/ling and roach/hydra fairly often, since zerg players don't know the proper timing for taking the 3rd against various protoss build orders yet. It is an important part of my PvZ just that you can approach it in two different ways - expanding yourself or executing a timing attack. Perhaps I haven't emphasised those points enough but my goal was to give a basic introduction to the matchup for newer players. I'll go over things again and try work more of it in though | ||
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Shadrak
United States490 Posts
1) I scout a spire that is complete or nearly complete while on 2 expos with a robo bay already down 2) I chrono out my first collosus while warping in as many stalkers as I can afford, using only a few sentries 3) I push with my army right as I see Z move their mutas toward my base to harrass. Usually they have 6-8 at this point. Now, the opponents I'm facing are only mid diamond (18-1900) but I've found that upon seeing my push they will attempt to defend with everything they have right away. I was surprised to see that one collosus is literally all you need to toast any amount of lings at this stage in the game by the time the mutas have FF'd it down. Perhaps the smarter play would be to move mutas in and take the collosus out while waiting with the lings but I would think this is just asking to have your mutas eliminated. What would a better Z do to respond to this kind of push? | ||
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DentThat
United States22 Posts
Why would you recommend having immortals in the IST composition against muta lings when immortals don't do anything to those. And why did you not include immortals in the main composition for the CSS against ROACHES! Just seems a little backwards. I know you said against the muta-lings, they will have some roaches...but against a pure roach/hydra army, thats A LOTTA roaches. Just wanted to clarify. No hate  | ||
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ZaneZaneZane
United States68 Posts
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