EPTNice read btw !
[G] PvZ Overview - Page 14
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
MGreeN
France50 Posts
Nice read btw ! | ||
|
blackodd
Sweden451 Posts
| ||
|
WolfMother
United States61 Posts
There are 2 follow ups to this Expoing: Pretty self explanitory, puts you pretty on par with the zerg as they will most likely rebuild their expo hatch, this will delay their third expo timing and give you a window to attack when they attempt to take their late third. If they expo too early punish them for that. Use remaining dts to scout for this. or All in: If the zerg appears weak when you attack with the 4 dts, you MUST start powering up an army out of your warpgates and boost the wgs. Pull back the 4 dts after they kill the hatch and morph archons (if they have overseers). If you take down their hatch then they will be stuck with 1 hatch and w/e larve they have left over from the dead hatch. This is the window where you push with a sizable army, and the 2 archons. I really like this build and have had success with it. If anyone is interested in this build just post here and I'll upload some replays. | ||
|
UFO
582 Posts
It is imperative that you catch when he transitions into Hive tech - you will need to be prepared for that. If he is able to discretely tech to hive and get ultras or BL then the game is over since the CSS composition dies to both of them really really hard What the fuck ? In my experience Ultra gets completely raped by Collosi/Stalker... Is there something wrong with me ? | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 29 2010 00:08 ZaneZaneZane wrote: Plexa, which build do you prefer? the 3 gate expand with some aggression or the 15 nexus? Also, how do you know which to use with what information you scout? Also, what is your in-game name? My in game name is Plexa on SEA and US and I have a smurf on Euro. I prefer 3gate expand to 15 Nexus (in most cases) since I know that 15 Nexus isn't safe on a lot of maps if the Zerg plays right, however many Zergs don't play it right. I draw an analogy to the 1rax FE by Terran against Protoss. This is an incredibly risky build and tbh is unsound. Any time someone does this against me I'm always able to kill it and force them back to one base (I play 1 gate VR in PvT, and if they expand I just add two gates instead of expanding and I can ALWAYS kill it). Zerg just need to realise what a little bit of Roach pressure is able to do to a FE. Think Idra vs that Protoss he rolled in the GSL - Roaches are amazing against FE  On November 20 2010 06:28 Shadrak wrote: Yeah that's a good timing attack against Mutalisk builds. Only way they can hold it is by massing crawlers since Lings just don't cut it. The whole key for it working is scouting it, as you rightly point out. When I mean CSS isn't great against Mutalisk I mean beyond timing attacks.I can't believe how much this guide has helped my PvZ. One thing I'm curious about is steering away from CSS when facing muta-ling. You mention that its viable but not optimum. However, I've had a few games now where I committed to CSS without realizing they were going mutaling (bad scouting on my part) that played out surprisingly well. The order of events pretty much went: 1) I scout a spire that is complete or nearly complete while on 2 expos with a robo bay already down 2) I chrono out my first collosus while warping in as many stalkers as I can afford, using only a few sentries 3) I push with my army right as I see Z move their mutas toward my base to harrass. Usually they have 6-8 at this point. Now, the opponents I'm facing are only mid diamond (18-1900) but I've found that upon seeing my push they will attempt to defend with everything they have right away. I was surprised to see that one collosus is literally all you need to toast any amount of lings at this stage in the game by the time the mutas have FF'd it down. Perhaps the smarter play would be to move mutas in and take the collosus out while waiting with the lings but I would think this is just asking to have your mutas eliminated. What would a better Z do to respond to this kind of push? On November 28 2010 04:02 DentThat wrote: Hey Plexa. Great read but I have a quick question Why would you recommend having immortals in the IST composition against muta lings when immortals don't do anything to those. And why did you not include immortals in the main composition for the CSS against ROACHES! Just seems a little backwards. I know you said against the muta-lings, they will have some roaches...but against a pure roach/hydra army, thats A LOTTA roaches. Just wanted to clarify. No hate  You want Immortals in the IST composition against Muta/Ling because Zergs tend to follow that up with a ton of Roaches - no immortals means you're going to get rolled. You don't need them right away obviously, but you need to have the capabilities to produce them after you get storm out (since that's your first priority after blink). You don't have Immortals generally in your CSS because you're spamming Colossus out of those robos and not immortals  Immortals are obviously good, but imo Colossus are better!On November 29 2010 00:38 MGreeN wrote: Dude these are awesome pictures, the person who took screenshots and retouched it is an artist. thx On November 29 2010 06:00 UFO wrote: What the fuck ? In my experience Ultra gets completely raped by Collosi/Stalker... Is there something wrong with me ? Ultras do full damage against Colossus/Stalker/Sentry and crash through forcefields (which is the whole reason the composition works). Sure mass stalker fares fairly well against Ultras, but generally speaking with an even army Ultras should win. | ||
|
neo_rtr
Sweden70 Posts
What I wanted to say is this. What if the approach to this PvZ should be looked from the point of view how the zerg produces its units and protoss trying to do the same. 1 hatchery x amount of larva. 2 hatch x+x amount of larva and so forth. In theory having the minerals and gas you can produce x amount of units. Now Protoss is having 4 Gw but maybe 1 robotic facility or 1 stargate. I mean toss can only produce "a" unit from each facility. Where zerg is limited to the amount of larva in hand regardless their own facilities. What if protoss increases the amount of facilities (yes I understand will probably not be able to have a full production cycle + minerals to maintain a 100% (constant) production cycle). Instead goes for intervals of unit productions. Target been to get 2x of Voids or colossus or immortals quicker. Something like this. 1st interval goes of 4 ground units (any unit) 2nd interval goes for 2 immortals. 3rd interval goes for 2 phoenix or void rays Then goes back to 1st step making ground units. Additional expansions can support more tech facilities. So maybe out of 2 expansions one can have like 4 robos 4 stargates 8 gateways and do the productions in intervals /cycles. 1st interval goes of 8 ground units (any unit) 2nd interval goes for 4 immortals. 3rd interval goes for 4 phoenix or void rays Does it even make any sense? | ||
|
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
| ||
|
ForTheDr3am
842 Posts
| ||
|
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
| ||
|
turbopasca1
Moldova41 Posts
| ||
|
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 30 2010 23:55 turbopasca1 wrote: Then you agree with what I said i dont agree that protoss gets weaker as time goes on , because the core late game units get a huge boost in damage with updgrades such as immortals and archons, and thats the units u want to have vs those ultras, not stalkers , and the best way to deal with broodlords is voydrays or cariers. if the core of your army is stalkers then they're going to get weaker as time goes on and you really want to switch out of that come lategame. | ||
|
sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On November 30 2010 14:30 Plexa wrote: You want Immortals in the IST composition against Muta/Ling because Zergs tend to follow that up with a ton of Roaches - no immortals means you're going to get rolled. You don't need them right away obviously, but you need to have the capabilities to produce them after you get storm out (since that's your first priority after blink). You don't have Immortals generally in your CSS because you're spamming Colossus out of those robos and not immortals Immortals are obviously good, but imo Colossus are better!Also Muta/Ling transitions into Ultras, which have CRUSHED my stalker/templar-attacks again and again  I need to say, I find the timing of this transition extremely hard - meaning when you are somewhat "safe" vs muta/ling and can spare ressources to prepare the transition. I've had more success with phoenix-play lately, after I bought some time with the 5 gate +1 attack. | ||
|
1Lamb1Rice
United States435 Posts
| ||
|
bankai
362 Posts
)1) After i 9 scout the zerg, can u tell me a 'general' BO to react to (i) 15 hatch (ii) 1 base zerg going zergling (iii) 1 base zerg going roach (iv) 1 base zerg going baneling bust?? I know a lot of ppl say 'put pressure on zerg if they early expand to stop them droning' but im having trouble translating that into wat i shud be physically doing in terms of building units etc?? 2) As zealots are high dps, say i have a mixed army of units and battle against a mixed army of zerg units, is it a better strategy to let all my other units be in the front line (like my stalkers/immortals) then send in the zealots to do the damage (and not die by sitting out the front and taking all the damage)? Thanks!! | ||
|
5unrise
New Zealand646 Posts
| ||
|
bankai
362 Posts
| ||
|
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On December 02 2010 14:00 5unrise wrote: Yes and no. I agree that Colossus/VR is the ultimate lategame combination, and I've stated that in the guide. The issue is midgame when the Zerg overproduces on Corruptors. Once you engage him and he knocks out all your Colossus he has established air superiority and you shouldn't be able to mass up an army of Colossus any more. He will have too many corruptors for you to do that. Of course you should win the ground battle in that engagement, but in most cases you won't be able to actually kill the zerg without some AOE support - and that's where the templar transition comes in very useful and is incredibly effective when the Zerg has a lot of supply locked up in Corruptors. Plexa I have to disagree with your analysis that a colossus ball cannot be massed if zerg has a sizable fleet of corruptors. Assuming this is lategame and both players are on multiple mining bases, zerg cannot efficiently prevent the protoss from turtling up colossi stalker armies supported by voidrays. Those voidrays makes colossus sniping incredibly difficult, not because they do damage to the corruptors, but that they tank much of the damage that would otherwise be directed at your colossi. In a direct engagement, even involving tier 3 units, zerg armies would still take far too much damage from the colossus such that the remaining voidray stalkers can clean up. Lategame, even in the very late sense of the word, still favours protoss as a critical mass of colossi and voidray in a 200/200 ball is very much unbeatable without suiciding multiple armies into them. As the game goes on you might be able to whittle down Corruptor numbers and resume colossus production. It all depends on the game really imo. On December 02 2010 13:48 bankai wrote: 1) Watch some of the replays in this thread to get an idea. Few questions (and sorry if im asking the same questions as someone else in the thread - its just too long to read thru )1) After i 9 scout the zerg, can u tell me a 'general' BO to react to (i) 15 hatch (ii) 1 base zerg going zergling (iii) 1 base zerg going roach (iv) 1 base zerg going baneling bust?? I know a lot of ppl say 'put pressure on zerg if they early expand to stop them droning' but im having trouble translating that into wat i shud be physically doing in terms of building units etc?? 2) As zealots are high dps, say i have a mixed army of units and battle against a mixed army of zerg units, is it a better strategy to let all my other units be in the front line (like my stalkers/immortals) then send in the zealots to do the damage (and not die by sitting out the front and taking all the damage)? Thanks!! i) 15hatch; you can pretty much do anything; it's up to you to do something though and remember your goals are to either force non-drone production or match him economically (via quick expo) ii) Take it easy, don't bother with stalker pressure and go for a nice and slow 3gate expand with zealot/sentry iii) Sentries and Cannons are your best friends, but most times you won't have cannons! Sentries + some units (stalker/zealot) clean up very well. Just have accurate FFs and theres nothing the Zerg can do iv) Sentries, and laugh at him for doing a stupid build. Baneling busts are very bad against Protoss (ling/bling however, is an underused combination in the midgame)In terms of units: - Stalkers are for harassment - Sentries are for defending - Zealots are to mop up lings Adapt as you see fit 2) No, Zealots are dirt cheap and cost no gas. If you happen to have Zealots in your army they're there to tank damage to let your gas units survive (losing gas units = losing the game). If your opponent ignores the Zealots he'll get ripped to shreds by their high DPS, so it gives your stalkers/immortals valuable time to get lots of shots off - which is good (but I prefer using forcefields for this) On December 02 2010 15:00 bankai wrote: Watch some of the reps from Tyler vs Idra, you'll see what the 3gate expand is.Sorry forgot another very (noob) question - what is a 3 Gate Sentry expand?? Is this basically having lots of sentries to block off the entrance while u expand?? | ||
|
pm_squad
Mexico180 Posts
Before this guide, all I would do against Zerg was 4-Gate AI since I thought Mutalisks were broken and I just couldn't be bothered to go to a middle/late macro game and would rather try and end the game early. After this guide I tried different new approaches with Phoenix harrass which led to no Muta's being built and quick switch tech to Collosus, better preparation in anticipation of Mutalisks, etc. PvZ used to be my worst matchup, and it was the 'holding me back' factor that didn't let me break the Top 200 of the LA server. Now during the past few weeks my rating has peaked as I have been able to beat any evenly matched Zerg, along with quite a few slightly favored AND favored Zergs against me. Now I feel very confident in the matchup and am specially excited to play it since I learn something new every game from it. I wanted to show the following replay where all of my learning from this guide culminates into me beating a Zerg that I remember from the days the first game was out, were with the low points everyone had, this guy was very superior to me, but just yesterday I finally managed to take a game off of him, after not having played against him for a very long time. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-170761.jpg) Thank you Plexa for this awesome guide! | ||
|
Kage
India788 Posts
| ||
|
chocoed
United States398 Posts
On December 03 2010 16:34 Kage wrote: Plexa, this was a sexy article! Now please help us protoss players by writing another one vs terran! Totally sweet and thank you for the massive effort in putting this together! I second that plea. Thanks for the write-up Plexa this should really help me with my PvZ issues. I never knew exactly what to do and always made up strategies and did as I please, which always resulted in a loss. Now I know what to do to defeat the swarm in the name of Aiur! | ||
| ||
