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Thanks a bunch Plexa. Your guide really helped me improve this matchup. The whole concept of pressuring to keep in check with zerg and force him to transition into units I want him to or even prevent him from tech switching is something I knew but never applied to my game play.
Normally, I get roflstomped by any zerg higher ranked than me but today was like the 1st time in 2 weeks I won vs someone higher.
tribute to this thread + bragging rights (I feel real good about this game)
vs 2200 Zerg
I still don't know how to sense mutas coming. If I forge FE (or 15 nex for that matter), isn't hallucination too late to scout mutas in time? I don't feel comfortable keeping down mutas with anything other than phoenixes yet 
Also how do you know if early roach pressure is coming when your mass warpgates haven't finished and no hallucination/no probe scouting allowed?
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On November 13 2010 05:51 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2010 05:21 DminusTerran wrote:
Excellent write up! I have a few questions about your seeming exclusion of my Zealot friends though? When discussing possible mineral dumps while going CSS, you didn't mention warp prism harass with zealots. It's an entirely mineral composition(or slight gas investment if you get prism speed) and can really put the pressure on the zerg.
Let me paint the picture for you. You're in one of those late midgame middle map standoffs that tend to happen where you're constantly poking with your army and the zerg attempts to hold off engaging as long as is possible. Warping a production cycle of zealots into one of his periphery expansions can really force a decision out of the zerg. He'll have to dedicate a decent number of units to defending or risk losing the hatchery. Allowing the Protoss player to perhaps get a opportunity to engage with his main army in some advantageous fashion, or clean up a decent number of drones/maybe deny a expansion with the drop.
Also zealots in the IST composition barely got a footnote which made me a little sad. Yes they definitely do not, "suck" against zerglings, but they also provide some other valuable functions as well. While storm is mostly the ling killer vs a muta linging zerg player. Zealots play a valuable roll of meat shield and escape mechanism. You don't really have any extraneous gas for sentries with force-fields when going any sort of Templar mix. Having the zealots to take hits while you pull back your valuable gas heavy units can usually pay out some sort of dividends.
Obviously against Roach Hydra they certainly aren't as good for the composition, but the still do play the roll of meat shield some what adequately, though cannons/expansion are probably the more valuable choice most of the time. Again though they deserve a mention in the warp prism harass category especially when going templar, as 2 templar and 4/5 zeals warping into a lightly defended zerg expansion can really put the hurt on.
Anyways, just my opinion, but I think warp prisms and zeals can be included a little more than was mentioned in the op. Especially since you already have the robo up and need some way to dump minerals. This seems doubly useful on maps where there is an island expansion, since at some point you'll want to build a warp prism to take advantage of that expo.
Edit: Holy shit I just noticed your icon is waffles damn I never saw that ><. Well firstly, this is just an overview of the matchup not a complete guide  I couldn't include everything. But I dislike warp prism zealot harass, even though I used to use it a lot in this matchup. It really is nothing mother than a minor annoyance. With good creep highways Zergs shouldn't lose anything more than a few tech structures at most (and with the HP buffs recently, don't count your chickens). 4 DTs are significantly better at killing things and doing what you want your warped Zealots to do. But of course, they cost gas... so you're back at square one. Throwing them into an IST mix is certainly better than CSS, but even then, IST relies on forcefields early on just as CSS does. Typically the mineral surplus starts to accumulate around the time you have 3 bases running and are producing gas intensive units (templar, colossus etc). At this stage of the game you have to make a judgement call on where those minerals are best spent - throwing them into zealots may be just what you need or conversely, it may be better to try and get a 4th up. It completely depends on the situation. I generally try to avoid Zealots since they really are just supply hogs (much like roaches, except worse).
I get the feeling we're on the same page here, but I think I might as well elaborate on my point since you've given me the opportunity.
I wasn't really trying to emphasize that the drop needs to do serious damage. Around the point you're getting your 4th up as protoss in ZvP throwing 6/7 zeals into one of the zergs expansion while you distract him with your army movement can't really be bad. The zealots don't even have to be cost effective, because they're almost free units at that point. I also understand that this is an overall guide, but that's why I think warp prism needs a mention. They aren't actually all that good as a fundamental piece of your overarching strategy, but rather as a use for idle minerals and robotics facilities as you're waiting on gas income. They're harassing your opponents multi tasking abilities more than their actual infrastructure if anything.
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Plexa i love you so much <3
Just need a pvt guide now
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Thank you Plexa! This was needed, I'd love to see more articles like this.
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Very nice read, even though I'm a zerg  Its gonna be interesting to see how a zerg can counter the late game vrs.
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I like the post. I think you should put in bold somewhere that you can not under any circumstances lose your army (or any non-minimal amount of it) without doing economic damage to them. You kind of mentioned it in some parts but I think that is one of the most important things in PvZ.
Do not push out later mid-game/late-game unless you think you can kill their army and have enough left over to actually damage their economy. If you lose your expensive gas units and don't hurt their economy you are probably fucked.
You should mention something in the early game part about trying to block their hatch. Microing your probe enough to get them to go pool first is always good. I scout on pylon and pull a second probe at ~11 to check for the overload on maps with the possible close air (Metal/LT)
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Oh yeah, if you are stuck on 2 base against muta/ling and you get storm BE PATIENT. Its really hard to sit there and wait on two bases when he has map dominance and is expanding everywhere but you have to. It is much much better to storm his mutas when they try to come in and harass than to try and move out with a small number of them.
I can't count how many games I have lost trying to take a third too soon with too few templar (2-3). He will rambo his mutilisks to kill them and even though he will lose some and take some damage from storm he will probably annihilate the rest of your army as soon as the storms are gone and win the game.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 13 2010 08:42 adrift wrote:
I like the post. I think you should put in bold somewhere that you can not under any circumstances lose your army (or any non-minimal amount of it) without doing economic damage to them. You kind of mentioned it in some parts but I think that is one of the most important things in PvZ.
Do not push out later mid-game/late-game unless you think you can kill their army and have enough left over to actually damage their economy. If you lose your expensive gas units and don't hurt their economy you are probably fucked.
You should mention something in the early game part about trying to block their hatch. Microing your probe enough to get them to go pool first is always good. I scout on pylon and pull a second probe at ~11 to check for the overload on maps with the possible close air (Metal/LT)
You're absolutely right. I'll just quote you in the OP that's more eye catching
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On November 13 2010 07:23 StorrZerg wrote: Plexa i love you so much <3 Just need a pvt guide now
i double that :X
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On November 13 2010 07:23 StorrZerg wrote: Plexa i love you so much <3 Just need a pvt guide now
1. Survive.
2. Get temps.
3. ???
4. Profit.
User was warned for this post
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On November 13 2010 07:14 Heen wrote:Thanks a bunch Plexa. Your guide really helped me improve this matchup. The whole concept of pressuring to keep in check with zerg and force him to transition into units I want him to or even prevent him from tech switching is something I knew but never applied to my game play. Normally, I get roflstomped by any zerg higher ranked than me but today was like the 1st time in 2 weeks I won vs someone higher. tribute to this thread + bragging rights (I feel real good about this game) vs 2200 ZergI still don't know how to sense mutas coming. If I forge FE (or 15 nex for that matter), isn't hallucination too late to scout mutas in time? I don't feel comfortable keeping down mutas with anything other than phoenixes yet Also how do you know if early roach pressure is coming when your mass warpgates haven't finished and no hallucination/no probe scouting allowed?
I end up sac'ing a probe or 2 to get a look at their army comp. Nothing but lings means either mutas, banelings, or perhaps nydus. Obviously if you see roaches then mutas will not be coming or significantly delayed. If you don't go stargate just position your stalkers at each mineral line, then toss a cannon or 2 at each mineral line before you move out. Usually if I don't go stargate then I usually go 8-gate.
I've been experimenting a lot going 2 stargate opener now and I think I've changed my mind on it. I used to go heavy gateway with 1 stargate after I FE, but I'm finding 2 stargate is affording me a lot of advantages. If I don't know what my opponent is going I make 1 VR and 1 Phx. The VR protects me from any roach aggression and can still be used as an effective harassment tool. Phx gives me the early scout and defense vs mutas. Obviously it is still weak vs a straight tech to hydras though, so you probably will have to cannon up some more in that scenario.
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Had to sign up to say thanks. This was great info to improve my PvZ which seems to be my best matchup.
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I have big big problems with mass roach :| which is the best unit composition to counter it?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 13 2010 19:13 LuDwig- wrote:
I have big big problems with mass roach :| which is the best unit composition to counter it?
Either Colossus/Sentry/Stalker or Immortal/Sentry/Stalker both work, you just need to forcefield well!
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I'm just waiting for the day where a giant ball of archons will make your opponent shit his pants (like ultras do now). I think they one-shot lings with +3, right?
Also, what's the best way to merge archons? Everything in this game is smart except merging archons. I wish it'd pick the two lowest mana ones and morph but they don't.
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Thank you, Plexa! Every time I'm in desperate need of Protoss, you post right when I need you most Always enjoy your very intelligent and neatly summarized posts. I thought I was the only one having trouble mid/late game with Protoss especially with all these Blizzard numbers saying Protoss is stomping people....
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Amazingly written post Plexa, best guide I've seen in the strategy forum by far. Covered the PvZ match up in great detail, if only there were PvT and PvP guides like this. (hint hint  ) I've always opened with a ramp gate into 3 gate with a little zealot, sentry, stalker pressure and expanding behind that. To be honest it's always seemed to work for me but ever since I've hit about 1500~ diamond level it's definitely been a lot harder. Read your guide and often refer back to it after PvZ games to try and understand more of the theory behind the matchup match up so THANK YOU for your insight and hopefully my PvZ will improve
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United States8477 Posts
PvT and PvP guides, I feel, would have to be structured much differently. PvT and PvP are both heavily based on build order battles where is PvZ is much more linear with just a slight divergence between ground zerg vs muta/ling.
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Wow! This was a very informative guide, Plexa! Thanks for putting your effort into making this, I will be sure to make good use of it (when I start playing SC2...heh...).
Just a question, though. Wouldn't it be convenient to put down 2 stargates in most cases? Chances are if you make it to the late game, all you need to do is put down a fleet beacon and start pumping VRs, or is it more so a question of "If I make it, but I don't use it, then it was a wasted investment"?
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Awesome guide, thanks a lot. Very helpful as a random player, for both sides.
I wonder if the solution to having too many minerals is to take several expansions for gas only, expecting to lose some of them. Will have to try it out once I've worked out how to do everything else .
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EPT
