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On November 08 2010 17:05 derykyim wrote:
i love your play MadisonStreet. i watched them all and learned a lot. Thanks! I just recently switched over from zerg because i have a lot more fun with terran. Can you give me any tips on multitasking and being aggressive? and your apm is so high! Good stuffs man :D
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-164011.jpg)
Basic multi pronged attacking just comes with forcing yourself to mentally swap between two fronts at once. Just keep practicing at it. Get into the habit of swapping between different areas on the map your base - your standing army - your scouts - your harassing units.
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It seems that vs Zerg lately, marines are playing a fundamental role. With this comes the need to micro your bio (more specifically: your marines) against incoming banelings.
What is your technique, to split up marines fast and efficiently?
Example:
Tank/marine push with medivac support against zerg going for ling/bling/muta. You are at the edge of his creep, throw a scan and that triggers his army to move out.
1) How is your initial position? Marines up front? Marines with the tanks? Where are the medivacs?
2) How do you minimize marine losses? What is your control groups setup typically to support splits?
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Vs. any decent Zerg lately I'm finding it impossible to expand and stay alive, I have no idea of what the zerg is doing most of the time and my sense of trading armys is terrible. I tend to just sit in my base until I get overrun because I'm too scared if I do anything aggressive I'll just lose my whole army and then get overrun anyway, How do I get out of this rut, It's gotten to the point for me were if I get a zerg on the ladder it's sure lose..  Keep in mind I'm only a newb gold leaguer.
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On November 08 2010 19:24 Thrombozyt wrote:
It seems that vs Zerg lately, marines are playing a fundamental role. With this comes the need to micro your bio (more specifically: your marines) against incoming banelings.
What is your technique, to split up marines fast and efficiently?
Example:
Tank/marine push with medivac support against zerg going for ling/bling/muta. You are at the edge of his creep, throw a scan and that triggers his army to move out.
1) How is your initial position? Marines up front? Marines with the tanks? Where are the medivacs?
2) How do you minimize marine losses? What is your control groups setup typically to support splits?
Alright so generally
1) Standing army
2) Tanks / Support units
3) Harass oriented units / drops
4) Scout / Misc
I dont use multiple control groups for my standing army unless I absolutely have to. I prefer to keep my groups open for multiple areas on the map. My splits are done manually this is just one of those techniques you have to practice.
@ 1) Untils mutas hit the field I'll "try" to keep tanks up in front but generally they are too slow so I'll forward scout with a single stimmed marine or burn a scan. Medivacs I have on follow either my tanks or marines.
Once mutas are on the field I''ll keep my marines forward and my tanks leap frogging behind them.
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On November 08 2010 19:58 DDKz wrote:Vs. any decent Zerg lately I'm finding it impossible to expand and stay alive, I have no idea of what the zerg is doing most of the time and my sense of trading armys is terrible. I tend to just sit in my base until I get overrun because I'm too scared if I do anything aggressive I'll just lose my whole army and then get overrun anyway, How do I get out of this rut, It's gotten to the point for me were if I get a zerg on the ladder it's sure lose.. Keep in mind I'm only a newb gold leaguer.
Force yourself to set a good timing for an expand and stick to it. Learn to hold off the aggresion. You will lose.
Alot.
But you'll eventually learn how to hold the expansion.
Note bunkers are your friend and dont be afraid to use buildings to serve as a buffer around your natural.
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Thx for the answer,but.... May I repost the 'main question'?
I realize, it kind of got into the background after the example:
What is your technique, to split up marines fast and efficiently?
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How do you feel about marines in tvp?
I try not to build them (at least early) because of guardian shield and I think zealots and stalkers own marines in small numbers. I feel like I can't wall off to help them because then stalkers just pick off my wall.
I like marauders since they own stalkers and you can kite the zealots. I want to go pure marauders (with vikings later), but i'm really scared of void rays and pheonix's early.
Do I just make marauders early, then add just enough marines later at the right timing to stop their air?
Go marines and use bunkers more liberally to keep them alive?
Or just make marauders and tech hard to vikings? I've been trying the last option but it feels like the marauders slow down my tech a lot since they cost gas.
Or just scout better? I've been trying to scout with reapers but they get picked off by stalkers, and i'm having trouble scanning in the right place at the right time to switch and start making marines fast enough.
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Hello, I'm switching to T after playing P in MLG and I can't wait to check out some of these replays to work on a solid foundation for T. Keep up the good work. I have 1 question. 7rr seems to give me a little trouble when I'm doing a 111 build. What do you think is the proper resonse? Throw down a bunker? Usually with some fancy micro I don't have too many issues but if I'm playing someone with equal micro or better tthetheke a game off me wi
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On November 07 2010 05:34 JiSu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2010 05:24 MadisonStreet wrote:On November 07 2010 05:23 JiSu wrote:
And how do you micro the marines? You just move them back and press s and keep doing the same thing right? For some reasons my marines always stop firing for a second.. I know the pros do it in certain way that marines always keep shooting as they move back so I was wondering if you know how to do it Stutter shooting is more of a mouse technique then a keyboard one. a) select group of marines b) right click a small distance away <---> c) tap h here <-*-> to allow for your marines to stop moving and fire d) right click again to continue kiting <---> basically you want to mess around with the unit until your comfortable with the attack animation and can consistantly fire without missing a shot. then you want to learn to do this while macroing. and finally you want to learn to do this while using terrain - moving behind choke points or narrow passage ways to allow minimal surface area to be attacked - and of course stim / spread. Oh so you don't press S key for stop command but H for hold? Ahh I see, cool, I'll try and see how this works out. Thanks
mehh, didnt know this is possible. what i do is
right click a small distance away
press A (for atk)
click on target
and so on.. all while holding alt to see health bars.i got too attached to DotA imo  )
on topic, how do you respond to TvT contains? wherein you are the one being contained? what do you do if you have less viking count compared to your opponent?
how do you break the contain in this situation?
aand are there any more ways to keep up rather than building a starport to keep up with his viking count?
TvT contains pretty much throw me off, my TvZ and TvP are good. i remembered losing to 5 straight terrans on ladder. they all contained me haha
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Hi Madison.
I am looking for a safe opening based on early hellion play. The iEchoic opening style is something I like very much for instance against protoss. Do you have any idea of variation around this that would be efficient against zerg or/and terran ?
And a second question if I may. I think hellions are supposed to be at least ok against marines (without stim). But in my hands they are not cost efficient at all against them. Any advices about how to micro them properly against marines ?
Thanks for all your interseting answers on this thread.
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On November 09 2010 00:18 Gwaltgw wrote:
How do you feel about marines in tvp?
I try not to build them (at least early) because of guardian shield and I think zealots and stalkers own marines in small numbers. I feel like I can't wall off to help them because then stalkers just pick off my wall.
I like marauders since they own stalkers and you can kite the zealots. I want to go pure marauders (with vikings later), but i'm really scared of void rays and pheonix's early.
Do I just make marauders early, then add just enough marines later at the right timing to stop their air?
Go marines and use bunkers more liberally to keep them alive?
Or just make marauders and tech hard to vikings? I've been trying the last option but it feels like the marauders slow down my tech a lot since they cost gas.
Or just scout better? I've been trying to scout with reapers but they get picked off by stalkers, and i'm having trouble scanning in the right place at the right time to switch and start making marines fast enough.
Marines are good, but not as the basis of your army. Preferably a 50/50 mix of marines to marauders is what you should aim for, or like, at least 1 reactor rax amongst your raxes. Marines do far more damage then marauders, especially to zealots. That's sort of a huge deal, zealots rip the shit out of marauders if the marauders' movement advantage is impaired somehow, like with FF's or Zealot Charge. They benefit greatly from upgrades too, so don't forget those. Marines also spread their DPS very efficiently (ie, not much overkill, no projectile speed).
The main reason why you shouldn't mass marines is becuase AoE abilities rip through marines like crazy. Marauders have their place.
As to how to add marines properly, it depends on your build order. A 2 rax opening can have the first rax go reactor, second tech lab (extremely common opening, check Foxer vs Babybyebye game 1 of GSL2) which results in many marines. I've been watching Jinro's TvP, and he opens with a marine bunker into starport tech, into a weird marine/marauder/banshee/raven mix that is strangely incredibly effective.
Marines also work well with ghosts, you have a cheap gas unit and an expensive gas unit. There is one opening I like to do which is 2 rax, ghost, expand. Totally viable, and can be used to bust 1 gate FE protosses.
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On November 09 2010 18:42 Thonku wrote:
Hi Madison.
I am looking for a safe opening based on early hellion play. The iEchoic opening style is something I like very much for instance against protoss. Do you have any idea of variation around this that would be efficient against zerg or/and terran ?
And a second question if I may. I think hellions are supposed to be at least ok against marines (without stim). But in my hands they are not cost efficient at all against them. Any advices about how to micro them properly against marines ?
Thanks for all your interseting answers on this thread.
In TvT there is one really good hellion build I can advise. Watch Jinro's games from MLG to see it in action from a pr0 level.
10 sup
12 rax
13 gas
15 oc
sup
fac
gas
3 marines, then tech lab. Switch with fac.
Immeadiaely start hellion and preignitor upgrade
with next 100 gas, start a starport. When it finishes, start a medivac AND a bunker at your front (if you are worried about potential motherfuckery occuring at your base at the same time. Inadvisible in, say, cross positions metalopolis).
With 4 hellions and your dropship, find a hole in his base and slip in. Expand while you do this. Make a reactor on your rax, switch it over with the port and start pumping tank/viking, sidelining infantry for the time being. Play from there (jinro prefers tank/viking/marine, and there's nothing wron with that).
With your hellions, focus on just killing scv's. You're a bit weak to a counterattack, so just focus on killing scv's
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On November 09 2010 21:05 iaguz wrote:
In TvT there is one really good hellion build I can advise. Watch Jinro's games from MLG to see it in action from a pr0 level.
10 sup
12 rax
13 gas
15 oc
sup
fac
gas
3 marines, then tech lab. Switch with fac.
Immeadiaely start hellion and preignitor upgrade
with next 100 gas, start a starport. When it finishes, start a medivac AND a bunker at your front (if you are worried about potential motherfuckery occuring at your base at the same time. Inadvisible in, say, cross positions metalopolis).
With 4 hellions and your dropship, find a hole in his base and slip in. Expand while you do this. Make a reactor on your rax, switch it over with the port and start pumping tank/viking, sidelining infantry for the time being. Play from there (jinro prefers tank/viking/marine, and there's nothing wron with that).
With your hellions, focus on just killing scv's. You're a bit weak to a counterattack, so just focus on killing scv's
Hello Iaguz.
Thanks for your answer. I had noticed this build already but didn't watch too many replays. In the one I saw, Jinro ends up barely surviving the counter attack and had to pull drone into combat. It doesn't look like such a safe build for someone who doesn't have a godly micro like him. But still I will try it because it sounds fun !
Besides, I think I understand the urge on the infernal preigniter against terran. I guess it is because the SCVs have 45 hp and are not 1 shot by 3 normal hellions. Ok. But then why not use the iEchoic opening against zerg ? What would be the major difficulty and is there a way to adapt ?
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Hi Madison,
I'm not sure if you're able/willing to help me with this, but are there any timing windows when you're doing certain builds that I'd be able to exploit? I know of a couple (e.g. very weak to roaches when doing reactor hellion FE build, or soemthing like that). I'm around 2k diamond and need some help figuring some stuff out. I saw earlier in the thread that you said Zerg gives you trouble when they tech switch which causes you to overprepare for a unit comp they weren't actually aiming for. Could you give an example of this? Or even a replay, if possible? Would it be something like a roach feint into mutas? Or a muta feint into mass roach bust at your nat?
EDIT: I'm Zerg.
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Yeah. It takes 4 shots to kill an SCV with unupgraded hellions, 2 with. Yor hellionsare (probably) going to die, so get in and do as much as you can before they all get killed. You don't need godly micro for this anyway, even I can get 10+ scv kills (got like 20 today, godo thing sieged up tanks do shit all to hellions eh?). Good multitasking helps though.
This build is a bit risky, it's not straight up standard play and if it runs into somone prepared, or someone doing the same or similar build right back at you, the game is going to get a bit weird. Fast.
I don"t really know, nor have any real experience with the iEchoic build. Sorry.
Next questioner!
Hmm, tricky. There are so many different ways to play TvZ it's had to really identify a ironclad timing weakness. I suppose the time when you have 30 mutas out is a good time for you, hehe.
I don't think you can play effective roach mindgames like that. Note that Terrans almost never bother scanning your main/nat. This is because we knw you can hide important tech structures (ie, spire) anywhere thanks to creep, so why bother? Our usual mindset is to sit back, build up the unit combination that we want and wait until the Zerg makes their move, keeping an eye on their expansion timings. Marines and tanks are good against basically everything, so why waste mules to find out that you're still playing Zerg? TvZ is a bit naff like that, you don't necessarily have to make specific unit switches due to enemy compositions
Well, with SOME exceptions. For example, it's important to build vikings if you see broodlords, infestor/bane rapes the shit out of bioballs, thors and/or marines are necessary to kill mutalisks, tanks are godly vs banes and speedsand ok vs everything else. Marauders are a bit limited in their usefulness, but good in large numbers vs ultras (hopefully they don't have infestors out so you can do some kiting micro!), and muta flocks get ridiculously dangerous once they hit about 20-30. Well, ok, there are a lot of exceptions, but you get my point! It's like, I can just go marine/tank/medivac/upgrades vs zerg, maybe splash in a thor or some maruaders here and there, and that's perfectly normal against ANY zerg midgame to lategame. The important thing is that my fundamentals are better, and that I time my 2 base push out as well as I can, and if it doesn't work out then I take my 3rd base and keep the game rolling.
The only real timing windows I can picture are weakness to roaches whne going hellions early, and extremely vulnerable to baneling/speedling whilst going 1 rax fe. That's sort of it. Sorry, not very helpful ><.
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On November 09 2010 01:17 InTehFace wrote:
Hello, I'm switching to T after playing P in MLG and I can't wait to check out some of these replays to work on a solid foundation for T. Keep up the good work. I have 1 question. 7rr seems to give me a little trouble when I'm doing a 111 build. What do you think is the proper resonse? Throw down a bunker? Usually with some fancy micro I don't have too many issues but if I'm playing someone with equal micro or better tthetheke a game off me wi
Haven't fought the 7rr myself (or many roach rushes), but here's the thing...
First, identify the build. Your scouting SCV should note the lack of an expansion, and whatever tech structure he's making past the roach warren. You might want to consider scanning his main because IT IS IMPERATIVE YOU KNOW WHAT HE IS DOING! He could be going for a baneling bust, he might very well be faking you out with his early tech choice. More scouting and scanning is essential.
Second, wall off. Get a bunker and prepare to pull scv's to repair. A second one isn't a bad idea. Make the wall off as thick and nasty as you can. This is going to be painful, but necessary. From your port, make medivacs. From your rax, make marauders/marines (depending on whether it's roaches or lings). From your fac, make tanks. Sit on all this until you fight off his aggression, then expand. Don't be afraid to pull workers for anything. Roaches breaking through? Repair like mad. Roaches broken through? Repair bunker! Roaches trying to run past bunker? Fuck it, surround them with scvs and remake the wall! Roaches can take a very long time to kill scvs, and all you have to do is hold off the push, then you've set yourself up niecly techwise for a good midgame, lots of tanks, some annoying vikings, hey maybe even a banshee!
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On November 08 2010 23:29 Thrombozyt wrote:
Thx for the answer,but.... May I repost the 'main question'?
I realize, it kind of got into the background after the example:
What is your technique, to split up marines fast and efficiently?
Lol, I dunno. I think they group all their marines in one group, (like 2), hit 2, t, then drag select small sections of the army and run them around quickly. They don't directly look at the banelings, they just manage the marines whilst noticing the fast moving red shapes on their peripheral vision.
This the only way I can imagine this working.
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Do you use any build in TvT without tanks? Been looking for a solid one for a while, but havent really found 1 (besides cheese). Maybe some kind of marauder/thor or marauder/viking? Would love a replay :D
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Hello,
I've got huge problems with FE Zergs who kill my own atempts at FE. They're just so strong early game. I try to bunker the natural but then they attack with lings/slings before the bunker is up.
If I manage to get the expo up I have a hard time against decent muta micro. Especially on levels like blistering sands due to the distances (slow marines and thors). Do you leave a thor in base when pushing out? marines?
I've seen lots of TvZ get 1/1/1 - banshees for harass to force tech insted of drones? Is this the only way to survive vs Z?
Whats your preferred army composition vs bling/sling/muta/infestor?
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Hi Madison,
Do you have any replays of you doing a 111 build in TvT, scouting that your opponent is doing a 3rax stim push, and successfully defending against it? I love the 111 build, but I find that I almost always lose to the 3rax stim push.
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EPT
