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On November 09 2010 00:18 Gwaltgw wrote:
How do you feel about marines in tvp?
I try not to build them (at least early) because of guardian shield and I think zealots and stalkers own marines in small numbers. I feel like I can't wall off to help them because then stalkers just pick off my wall.
I like marauders since they own stalkers and you can kite the zealots. I want to go pure marauders (with vikings later), but i'm really scared of void rays and pheonix's early.
Do I just make marauders early, then add just enough marines later at the right timing to stop their air?
Go marines and use bunkers more liberally to keep them alive?
Or just make marauders and tech hard to vikings? I've been trying the last option but it feels like the marauders slow down my tech a lot since they cost gas.
Or just scout better? I've been trying to scout with reapers but they get picked off by stalkers, and i'm having trouble scanning in the right place at the right time to switch and start making marines fast enough.
I tend to favor marines as a midgame bio transition before templar. Most of my vs P builds rely on early marauder for defense and pressure.
It seems you want to use marauders early game and transition with them. Thats fine - you just need to find a way to work in pressure / scouting with that investment. Obviously air will be something you'll need to actively scout against.
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On November 09 2010 01:17 InTehFace wrote:
Hello, I'm switching to T after playing P in MLG and I can't wait to check out some of these replays to work on a solid foundation for T. Keep up the good work. I have 1 question. 7rr seems to give me a little trouble when I'm doing a 111 build. What do you think is the proper resonse? Throw down a bunker? Usually with some fancy micro I don't have too many issues but if I'm playing someone with equal micro or better tthetheke a game off me wi
Scout. The timing off your second mule is a good window for banelings and roaches. Either burn a scan or send active scv's. Once you know its coming throw up a bunker and have some scv's hotkeyed.
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On November 09 2010 03:30 Toothless`xelrae wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2010 05:34 JiSu wrote:On November 07 2010 05:24 MadisonStreet wrote:On November 07 2010 05:23 JiSu wrote:
And how do you micro the marines? You just move them back and press s and keep doing the same thing right? For some reasons my marines always stop firing for a second.. I know the pros do it in certain way that marines always keep shooting as they move back so I was wondering if you know how to do it Stutter shooting is more of a mouse technique then a keyboard one. a) select group of marines b) right click a small distance away <---> c) tap h here <-*-> to allow for your marines to stop moving and fire d) right click again to continue kiting <---> basically you want to mess around with the unit until your comfortable with the attack animation and can consistantly fire without missing a shot. then you want to learn to do this while macroing. and finally you want to learn to do this while using terrain - moving behind choke points or narrow passage ways to allow minimal surface area to be attacked - and of course stim / spread. Oh so you don't press S key for stop command but H for hold? Ahh I see, cool, I'll try and see how this works out. Thanks mehh, didnt know this is possible. what i do is right click a small distance away press A (for atk) click on target and so on.. all while holding alt to see health bars.i got too attached to DotA imo  ) on topic, how do you respond to TvT contains? wherein you are the one being contained? what do you do if you have less viking count compared to your opponent? how do you break the contain in this situation? aand are there any more ways to keep up rather than building a starport to keep up with his viking count? TvT contains pretty much throw me off, my TvZ and TvP are good. i remembered losing to 5 straight terrans on ladder. they all contained me  haha
Banshees / Dropships / Plow through his contain. Its all relative to the other player. Find out where hes investing resources and attack around it.
In general you get contained alot more frequently when playing overly passively or turtling. Both of these are common with mech based play. Try going bio a few games and you'll see how difficult it is to get contained.
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On November 09 2010 18:42 Thonku wrote:
Hi Madison.
I am looking for a safe opening based on early hellion play. The iEchoic opening style is something I like very much for instance against protoss. Do you have any idea of variation around this that would be efficient against zerg or/and terran ?
And a second question if I may. I think hellions are supposed to be at least ok against marines (without stim). But in my hands they are not cost efficient at all against them. Any advices about how to micro them properly against marines ?
Thanks for all your interseting answers on this thread.
Vs Terran I've got a build with pre igniter and a banshee. you can check out my replay vs specialist for the timing. Its a fairly safe build and you have enough units on the field to avoid overcomitting to "harass".
Hellions with or without preigniter? Hellions alone are countered by everything they counter. You need to give them support or catch your opponent in a bad spot to effectively "hard counter" anything.
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On November 09 2010 22:58 Deadlyfish wrote:
Do you use any build in TvT without tanks? Been looking for a solid one for a while, but havent really found 1 (besides cheese). Maybe some kind of marauder/thor or marauder/viking? Would love a replay :D
I mainly opt for bio in TvT. However I still get a few tanks. You dont need many and I usually opt for 1 Factory per 2 Base.
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On November 09 2010 22:59 Cibron wrote:
Hello,
I've got huge problems with FE Zergs who kill my own atempts at FE. They're just so strong early game. I try to bunker the natural but then they attack with lings/slings before the bunker is up.
If I manage to get the expo up I have a hard time against decent muta micro. Especially on levels like blistering sands due to the distances (slow marines and thors). Do you leave a thor in base when pushing out? marines?
I've seen lots of TvZ get 1/1/1 - banshees for harass to force tech insted of drones? Is this the only way to survive vs Z?
Whats your preferred army composition vs bling/sling/muta/infestor?
Check out my v Zerg replays.
Your opponent can either drone or attack you. Find out which one hes doing. Then you do the opposite. If your losing your FE your either setting one up without preparing - not enough units mis scouting.
You should be building a minimum of 1 turrent per base but ideally you want several covering your unit producing structures as well. If your getting your expo up and you are your opponent are "even" as far as economy and army size - push out when he tries to get cute with mutas. If hes investing heavily with them and you attack he is forced to pull back. The problem is you moving out then getting suckered into pulling back to your base because of a muta threat. Now he knows your out on the field and will have x2 your army size by the time you push out again.
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On November 10 2010 03:21 enigmaticcam wrote:
Hi Madison,
Do you have any replays of you doing a 111 build in TvT, scouting that your opponent is doing a 3rax stim push, and successfully defending against it? I love the 111 build, but I find that I almost always lose to the 3rax stim push.
Good tank placement - Bunkers - Scv for repair. The timing for a 3 rax stim push hits after your starport. If your going for a passive 1 1 1 you should be scouting with your viking.
Note - this is why I dont like passive 1 1 1. Its a safe build that lacks scouting / early pressure
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Hey Madison, I've been trying your TvT blue hellion banshee build and I'm loving it so far. It's pretty easy to force the marines out of position so you can charge the ramp, but what do you think is the best reaction to a fast siege mode upgrade? They can have it before preignitor finishes if the want it that early, and that makes it harder to get up the ramp. What I've been doing is send one banshee to the mineral line to distract the marines and use the second one to kill the tank, that's pretty much gg if it works but smart turret placement can probably stop it. Do you think that's the best approach or would you prefer getting a medivac and dropping your marines in the back of their base to make the tanks unsiege? Or maybe just going for a contain, expand and harrass? I don't like that as much as I hate being passive in TvT.
Also, of the person asking about defending the 3 rax wants a second opinion, in my experience two bunkers is a brick wall to a 3 rax, especially with repair. You can even get away with one but two is safest. They need marauders to kill the bunkers, but they suck against your marines. If I want to end the game with a 3 rax, I bring all my scvs with me to absorb fire. It's the only way it works anymore, and usually only if they have one bunker and no repairs. That's my experience anyway. You can also choose to start another rax and delay your starport when you scout the 3 rax, that helps with getting more marines out but it isn't completely necessary.
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I haven't watched your replays yet, but against Z, what do you think about putting an ebay at their natural? (halting progress before it finishes so you can cancel). I find this helps delaying their expo while making it pretty safe to fast expo yourself.
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Wow that double starport build against protoss is very nice. I watched your play against incontrol and then implemented it in a game vs. the first toss I played (similar opening the incontrol used) and i completely dominated him with it. Thank you very much.
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On November 09 2010 22:44 iaguz wrote:
Yeah. It takes 4 shots to kill an SCV with unupgraded hellions, 2 with. Yor hellionsare (probably) going to die, so get in and do as much as you can before they all get killed. You don't need godly micro for this anyway, even I can get 10+ scv kills (got like 20 today, godo thing sieged up tanks do shit all to hellions eh?). Good multitasking helps though.
This build is a bit risky, it's not straight up standard play and if it runs into somone prepared, or someone doing the same or similar build right back at you, the game is going to get a bit weird. Fast.
I don"t really know, nor have any real experience with the iEchoic build. Sorry.
Next questioner!
Hmm, tricky. There are so many different ways to play TvZ it's had to really identify a ironclad timing weakness. I suppose the time when you have 30 mutas out is a good time for you, hehe.
I don't think you can play effective roach mindgames like that. Note that Terrans almost never bother scanning your main/nat. This is because we knw you can hide important tech structures (ie, spire) anywhere thanks to creep, so why bother? Our usual mindset is to sit back, build up the unit combination that we want and wait until the Zerg makes their move, keeping an eye on their expansion timings. Marines and tanks are good against basically everything, so why waste mules to find out that you're still playing Zerg? TvZ is a bit naff like that, you don't necessarily have to make specific unit switches due to enemy compositions
Well, with SOME exceptions. For example, it's important to build vikings if you see broodlords, infestor/bane rapes the shit out of bioballs, thors and/or marines are necessary to kill mutalisks, tanks are godly vs banes and speedsand ok vs everything else. Marauders are a bit limited in their usefulness, but good in large numbers vs ultras (hopefully they don't have infestors out so you can do some kiting micro!), and muta flocks get ridiculously dangerous once they hit about 20-30. Well, ok, there are a lot of exceptions, but you get my point! It's like, I can just go marine/tank/medivac/upgrades vs zerg, maybe splash in a thor or some maruaders here and there, and that's perfectly normal against ANY zerg midgame to lategame. The important thing is that my fundamentals are better, and that I time my 2 base push out as well as I can, and if it doesn't work out then I take my 3rd base and keep the game rolling.
The only real timing windows I can picture are weakness to roaches whne going hellions early, and extremely vulnerable to baneling/speedling whilst going 1 rax fe. That's sort of it. Sorry, not very helpful ><.
Thanks for that, it helped a little! ^^
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On November 10 2010 05:24 Senorcuidado wrote:
Hey Madison, I've been trying your TvT blue hellion banshee build and I'm loving it so far. It's pretty easy to force the marines out of position so you can charge the ramp, but what do you think is the best reaction to a fast siege mode upgrade? They can have it before preignitor finishes if the want it that early, and that makes it harder to get up the ramp. What I've been doing is send one banshee to the mineral line to distract the marines and use the second one to kill the tank, that's pretty much gg if it works but smart turret placement can probably stop it. Do you think that's the best approach or would you prefer getting a medivac and dropping your marines in the back of their base to make the tanks unsiege? Or maybe just going for a contain, expand and harrass? I don't like that as much as I hate being passive in TvT.
Also, of the person asking about defending the 3 rax wants a second opinion, in my experience two bunkers is a brick wall to a 3 rax, especially with repair. You can even get away with one but two is safest. They need marauders to kill the bunkers, but they suck against your marines. If I want to end the game with a 3 rax, I bring all my scvs with me to absorb fire. It's the only way it works anymore, and usually only if they have one bunker and no repairs. That's my experience anyway. You can also choose to start another rax and delay your starport when you scout the 3 rax, that helps with getting more marines out but it isn't completely necessary.
I haven't played against a fast siege mode upgrade in ages. And even then its usually in response to a fast expo or something asking to be punished. However with my scouting banshee I'd attack the siege tank and force an unsiege while moving towards the mineral line.
Generally the build revolves around getting early double gas before fact - which allows marauders along with the hellion banshee.
If your waiting for 2 banshees before attacking with your hellions you run the risk of doing no damage due to your opponent having many more units out on the field.
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On November 10 2010 06:14 GreyFox.me wrote:
I haven't watched your replays yet, but against Z, what do you think about putting an ebay at their natural? (halting progress before it finishes so you can cancel). I find this helps delaying their expo while making it pretty safe to fast expo yourself.
It works if your opting for a more passive opener. - Fast expo etc
Otherwise your better off using the extra minerals to build a second rax and letting them get the expo up. So you can destroy it.
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That ebay seriously sets you back though, and a lot of the time they'll just be all "well, I'll get this spawning pool now and get hatch later. W/E. Zergs been doing this since beta and it worked" or "Hah, fucker, I'm 1basing it up anyway. Suck shit arsehole". I suppose it would be good to do vs a Zerg who could be easily thrown off and wasn't confident about dealing with such huge shifts, but in ladder games that's not a good mindset.
Second rax is definitely a better idea, as Madison says.
Agreed, 1 bunker + repair or 2 bunkers + bit les repair will easily deflect the 3 rax stim all-in. You can expand with some tanks, or get cloaked banshees and fuck with him. The game is in your hands at that point.
As for safe TvT openers, I did like the one SjoW did on the latest Day9 daily. Skipping the early tanks is actually a good idea. I've been messing around with the early tank-esque openings and every little cheesy fucker on SEA owned me for all sorts of stupid reasons, reasons that could be easily prevented by having that banshee out earlier, or some sweet Stim. Some games the other guy does that fucking annoying "I'ma mass 50 starports and make your tank count meaningless", which makes me rip my hair out.
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Thanks for doing this!
When playing against players who have aggressively controlled the map and you've ceded position to them, what do you do to regain scouting and map control? From this point on, how do you decide your attack timing? Are they generally timing pushes that you have figured out already, or if not, what cues do you take to attack from a defensive position?
edit:spelling
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On November 10 2010 19:01 fxSolo wrote:
Thanks for doing this!
When playing against players who have aggressively controlled the map and you've ceded position to them, what do you do to regain scouting and map control? From this point on, how do you decide your attack timing? Are they generally timing pushes that you have figured out already, or if not, what queues do you take to attack from a defensive position?
Pressure. Banshees / Drops / Ghosts. Anything to get them back to the base and on edge.
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Thanks muchly for doing this. Making for some fascinating reading.
Was wondering what your philosophy on +Attack/Defense upgrades was? When is the 'right' time that you aim to get them?
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Hyrule19264 Posts
On November 07 2010 11:58 MayorITC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2010 11:55 tofucake wrote:
2200+ doesn't mean anything. What are your real qualifications? What notable players can you consistently defeat/do well against? What titles have you won? Who are you? 2200+ is still better than 80% of the forum browsers. I'm sure they could learn something. You're included as well seeing as how you're in Gold Division for 1's.
Where are you getting your (mis)information?
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Hyrule19264 Posts
On November 07 2010 14:10 cskalias.pbe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2010 11:55 tofucake wrote:
2200+ doesn't mean anything. What are your real qualifications? What notable players can you consistently defeat/do well against? What titles have you won? Who are you? 2200+ means more than your douche-y skepticism. How about thoughtfully responding to one of the questions instead? Maybe OP isn't really 2200, but his responses have been insightful whereas you come off amazingly troll-like for your post count. To OP: 1/1/1 build often gets crushed to a 6:30 or 7:00 triple rax stim push. How do you prepare for this type of attack? Specifically, a SMART terran will have minimal units at his wall to prevent useful scouting by a sacrificial SCV, while also spreading his rax so you can't tell if he is triple raxing or not by a scan. My thoughts are your best bet is a scan to check if he is taking double gas or not, and responding to a single gas by delaying the starport and focusing on siege/bunkers. Is there a better way? am I missing something fundamental?
"Douche-y" skepticism? Simply stating a point amount is not justification for anything. High points can be achieved by mass laddering. I want to know if he's got the actual talent and decision making required to defeat known players on a regular basis.
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On November 07 2010 05:24 MadisonStreet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2010 05:23 JiSu wrote:
And how do you micro the marines? You just move them back and press s and keep doing the same thing right? For some reasons my marines always stop firing for a second.. I know the pros do it in certain way that marines always keep shooting as they move back so I was wondering if you know how to do it Stutter shooting is more of a mouse technique then a keyboard one. a) select group of marines b) right click a small distance away <---> c) tap h here <-*-> to allow for your marines to stop moving and fired) right click again to continue kiting <---> basically you want to mess around with the unit until your comfortable with the attack animation and can consistantly fire without missing a shot. then you want to learn to do this while macroing. and finally you want to learn to do this while using terrain - moving behind choke points or narrow passage ways to allow minimal surface area to be attacked - and of course stim / spread.
OMG!!!!
And here I am practicing the hell out of my micro the last couple of weeks, trying to click faster so that my marines don't attack on their own after I press the S button and now I see that I should have used H instead *sigh*.
And now that I am googling I learn that S does only cancel the current commands but your marines will do what they do in default mode (chase close enemies).
No wonder I never could get my marines "in synch" nor my hellions when harrasing the enemy mineral lines. There were always some marines donig their own thing or hellions starting to fire on nearby enemies and I get pissed about them not being in synch.
I thought I should practice harder/ click faster so that the units never gets the chance to run away.
*sigh*
This single post will change my micro forever =) thx
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EPT
