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I find myself losing to every single cannon attempt. I've included a replay where I went 14 pool, and saw the initial pylon being placed + sent drones to deal with it, but still lost very badly. It wasn't even close and he had two cannons finished when my first lings spawned. Honestly if every protoss did this every game I'd lose every single time. I'm rank 1300 diamond and it's embarassing to die to cannon rushes like this every time. Please offer any advice you got and no I do not want to 6 pool in response.
Thanks in advance!
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-161413.jpg)
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Drone up on your one base, get two crawlers, get a queen, spread creep and let the crawlers kill the cannons if they are on the low ground.
Your expansion will be a little late, but the cannon rush is also a very expensive investment - so you should come out roughly even in the end.
Don't suice drones, try to kill the probe and prevent a wall-off, otherwise - crawlers will take care of the rest.
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Maybe this won't work in diamond, but this has worked against gold opponents. Spread creep, make a few spines, tech up and make a nydas while you get a bunch of lings/blings, go through nydas, attack his base/take an expansion.
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Thats pretty dangerous considering once he has warp gates he'll be producing units into your base while you're rushing lair... Not to mention he'll be watching you with observer and will see the nydus.
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Send 3-4 drones next time instead of 2. Whenever I see a spinecrawlers spawn in my base or see cannons, I send 3 to kill the cannon/spinecrawler. Sure, you'll lose economy if you stick 3-4 drones on every cannon, but you won't lose outright.
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cannon does have same range as spine so its not good to reposition them if cannon is up.
Alternatively try, build spine at main creep to stop cannon progressing, cancel any natural expo and with scouting drone build a hidden hatch outside your base near the enermy, get a queen there and pump speed lings from it, drones in the main, after you have a good amount of lings attack his main, he'll have maybe 1 zelot vs your 12 lings so easy win
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Removed the range note - I always end up getting walled-in so didn't have to deal with them on level ground.
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make a pool asap, in the most opposite direction of the pylon. Key is to not panic. Ignore the pylon for the time being. If you get a chance to trap his probe with a few drones that will buy you time. When your pool gets up first make 2 zerglings and pressure him. A lot of cannoners will have no defense... not even a pylon at home... and will get owned easily, leaving you in a good position
2nd make spine crawlers... yes they match range but the cannons can't advance in your spine crawler radius... make sure to defend your pool and your hatch. Rest is ez peezy
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On October 30 2010 03:27 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
Thats pretty dangerous considering once he has warp gates he'll be producing units into your base while you're rushing lair... Not to mention he'll be watching you with observer and will see the nydus.
It depends. If he's heavily committed to his canon rush he won't have enough units to break your spines/queens and you can easily retreat through the nydas and defend with your lings.. Also it takes some time before he gets a observer out and you should be able to overwhelm him before that. Maybe the poster above me suggesting a hidden hatch is a better idea, but the nydas works pretty well (in gold).
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Have a drone on patrol at the bottom of your ramp if you want to be extra safe. That's what i usually do. Or just a hold position drone will work. As long as they don't do a full block off of your ramp, you should be good. Pull more drones if you need to.
EDIT: I didn't watch replay as I'm only on my laptop (which doesn't have SC2 installed). But I imagine if you lost to a cannon rush, he blocked your ramp.
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I have a replay of my Silver League defeat of a Cannon Contain. It's not pro but it gives you a good idea of how to deal with a cannon contain.
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/4740
I honestly didn't scout it and my response started when I sent my first queen and a drone to attack that constructing cannon.
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1) Scout earlier (I know you put down a pool first but either ways, you could go hatch first if gateway)
2) Dont let him get up the ramp, dont let him warp in canons lol
3) Kill the probe
4) Get spine to prevent spread (if it gets out of control) / If you prevent the probe to get up and place shit, take out pylons/cannons
5) Even if you take it all out, against a good toss, you will usually be behind.
Keep in mind. Protoss players are notorious for their gayness. They usually follow up by void rays or dts when you fight it off. At 1600-1700 diamond they are still gay as fuck, make a spine before the lings so he cant put pylons/cannons in your base and use the first energy on the queen for a tumor as he cant place it on creep. This and metalopolis is just protoss heaven for canon builds. If you know you are up against a toss, suspect that he is going to be gay as hell and when he runs out of steam... profit
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On October 30 2010 11:55 MonkeyKungFu wrote:
1) Scout earlier (I know you put down a pool first but either ways, you could go hatch first if gateway)
2) Dont let him get up the ramp
3) Kill the probe
4) Get spine to prevent spread / If you prevent the probe to get up and place shit, take out pylons/cannons
5) Even if you take it all out, against a good toss, you will usually be behind.
Keep in mind. Protoss players are notorious for their gayness. They usually follow up by void rays or dts when you fight it off. At 1600-1700 diamond they are still gay as fuck, make a spine before the lings so he cant put pylons/cannons in your base and use the first energy on the queen for a tumor as he cant place it on creep. This and metalopolis is just protoss heaven for canon builds. If you know you are up against a toss, suspect that he is going to be gay as hell and when he runs out of steam... profit
Hopefully, a patch will come that makes forge require gateway!!!!!
Wasn't there a TLO match where he defeated a Cannon Rush and come out quite a ways ahead (Still had workers, a few Mutas, a queen and enough resources to rebuild hatch after Worming into the Protoss base)?
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Could be, but the avreage joe is not TLO
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I haven't looked at the replays, but the mistake I notice most lower level players making is that they focus down pylons instead of cannons.
If you pull 4 drones you'll be able to kill a cannon before it warps in, as long as they start attacking it before its roughly 40% done.
If I see a toss trying to cannon me, I'll pull 4 drones for the first cannon, and 2 for each additional cannon. If I end up pulling 8 drones, who cares.
Every cannon he drops is 150 minerals.
Here's the problem with focusing pylons:
1: They have more life than cannons
2: They warp in faster than cannons
3: They're cheaper than cannons
4: Killing a pylon doesn't prevent building structures from completing their warp-in.
So what ends up happening is a Zerg player will pull enough drones to kill the pylon, but not before the Toss player starts warping in a couple cannons. Once that's done, all the Toss has to do is lay 3 pylons and you're more or less screwed.
In other words: Just kill the cannons. If 8 drones aren't mining for a couple minutes, but you don't lose anything, AND secure your expo, you're still much better off than if your drones had mined continuously but you wound up contained. (Or worse, taking losses)
Edit:
And upon watching the replay, you did the correct thing in focusing the cannons, you just didn't pull enough drones. If you get a chance, just go into a game against an AI opponent and test it out yourself. Pick Toss, start warping in cannons, and then practice just attacking them with probes as they're warping in. You'll be surprised how quickly they die to 4 workers.
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cannons and spines have the same range. you arnet necessarily trying to kill off the pylons or the cannons with them but rather just prevent the cannons from getting any closer to your base.
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On October 30 2010 12:47 MrBitter wrote:
I haven't looked at the replays, but the mistake I notice most lower level players making is that they focus down pylons instead of cannons.
If you pull 4 drones you'll be able to kill a cannon before it warps in, as long as they start attacking it before its roughly 40% done.
If I see a toss trying to cannon me, I'll pull 4 drones for the first cannon, and 2 for each additional cannon. If I end up pulling 8 drones, who cares.
Every cannon he drops is 150 minerals.
Here's the problem with focusing pylons:
1: They have more life than cannons
2: They warp in faster than cannons
3: They're cheaper than cannons
4: Killing a pylon doesn't prevent building structures from completing their warp-in.
So what ends up happening is a Zerg player will pull enough drones to kill the pylon, but not before the Toss player starts warping in a couple cannons. Once that's done, all the Toss has to do is lay 3 pylons and you're more or less screwed.
In other words: Just kill the cannons. If 8 drones aren't mining for a couple minutes, but you don't lose anything, AND secure your expo, you're still much better off than if your drones had mined continuously but you wound up contained. (Or worse, taking losses)
Edit:
And upon watching the replay, you did the correct thing in focusing the cannons, you just didn't pull enough drones. If you get a chance, just go into a game against an AI opponent and test it out yourself. Pick Toss, start warping in cannons, and then practice just attacking them with probes as they're warping in. You'll be surprised how quickly they die to 4 workers.
How do you feel about using "Build Spine Crawlers, Spread Creep, use scouting drone to expand somewhere else other than natural and let the Cannon Rusher knock himself out" ?
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On October 30 2010 12:59 Conrose wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 12:47 MrBitter wrote:
I haven't looked at the replays, but the mistake I notice most lower level players making is that they focus down pylons instead of cannons.
If you pull 4 drones you'll be able to kill a cannon before it warps in, as long as they start attacking it before its roughly 40% done.
If I see a toss trying to cannon me, I'll pull 4 drones for the first cannon, and 2 for each additional cannon. If I end up pulling 8 drones, who cares.
Every cannon he drops is 150 minerals.
Here's the problem with focusing pylons:
1: They have more life than cannons
2: They warp in faster than cannons
3: They're cheaper than cannons
4: Killing a pylon doesn't prevent building structures from completing their warp-in.
So what ends up happening is a Zerg player will pull enough drones to kill the pylon, but not before the Toss player starts warping in a couple cannons. Once that's done, all the Toss has to do is lay 3 pylons and you're more or less screwed.
In other words: Just kill the cannons. If 8 drones aren't mining for a couple minutes, but you don't lose anything, AND secure your expo, you're still much better off than if your drones had mined continuously but you wound up contained. (Or worse, taking losses)
Edit:
And upon watching the replay, you did the correct thing in focusing the cannons, you just didn't pull enough drones. If you get a chance, just go into a game against an AI opponent and test it out yourself. Pick Toss, start warping in cannons, and then practice just attacking them with probes as they're warping in. You'll be surprised how quickly they die to 4 workers.
How do you feel about using "Build Spine Crawlers, Spread Creep, use scouting drone to expand somewhere else other than natural and let the Cannon Rusher knock himself out" ?
I feel like it should never come to that because its so easy to shut down cannon rushes with drones...
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EPT
