EPT5 gate all in off 1 base?
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Baldey
United States28 Posts
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Kolvacs
Canada1203 Posts
You just chrono probes. Whats the point of this post? | ||
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Railgan
Switzerland1507 Posts
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tx.zyclon
United States145 Posts
On October 22 2010 06:38 Kolvacs wrote: You actually can support 5 gateways. You just chrono probes. Whats the point of this post? I think if you read, he's wondering why people 5 gate off one base when he hasn't been able to fund it in his games. Pretty obvious. | ||
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Immaterial
Canada510 Posts
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Parra
United States152 Posts
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Dudemeister
Sweden314 Posts
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Baldey
United States28 Posts
to the person that says chronoboost probes, lol. btw the 5 gate was off a failed DT rush. extra probes never helped no one. i didnt mention it casue i think its assumed that by the time you have 5 gateways you already have full probe saturation. and these people are too good to let their macro slip. with 16-20 probes per 8 mineral patches and both gasses fully saturated, 4 gateways with chronoboost is all i can produce out of. 3 i obviously start piling up minerals, 5 i always have a gateway not doing anything. the only benefit i can see from a 5 gate all in is maybe over saturating probes and having the ability to warp in 5 units instead of 4 when you need them... but i dono if thats effective or if thats what they are doing casue i dont have access to their replays  | ||
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wizard944
194 Posts
1. You stop making probes 2. You constantly attack so that you're losing units and have no need to build pylons. So if you are satisfying these two conditions, then this is truly an all-in in every sense of the term | ||
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Baldey
United States28 Posts
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StrikerZero
United States4 Posts
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
its just more all-in than the 4-gate is all (unless they expod) | ||
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vohne
Philippines197 Posts
On October 22 2010 07:07 wizard944 wrote: I'm pretty sure you can support 5 gates under two conditions: 1. You stop making probes 2. You constantly attack so that you're losing units and have no need to build pylons. So if you are satisfying these two conditions, then this is truly an all-in in every sense of the term You're absolutely right. This 5 gate is pretty much an all in, I have done this. it also involves a lot of sentries. | ||
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TwentyAPM
United States17 Posts
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ltortoise
633 Posts
(thank you eckm!) No, you can't support five gateways off of 1 base. Let's do some math, shall we? Maybe we will learn something from it. A saturated Protoss base (24 probes on 8 mineral patches, and 6 probes on 2 geysers) gets 13.6 minerals per second, and 3.8 gas per second. Now let's look at what a unit costs to produce continuously. We will disregard HT's and DT's because obviously they will be more expensive. We will also disregard chrono boost because that would make things worse. We seek only a combination of units that we can continuously produce off of 5 gateways, with all gateways in continuous usage. (there is some rounding but it should be good enough for you people. anybody who could appreciate the difference would never think that 5 gates could be supported anyway) A Zealot costs 100 minerals and has a 28 second warp gate cooldown. So a Zealot costs 3.57 minerals per second. Similarly, a Stalker costs 3.9 minerals per second and 1.56 gas per second. Sentry is 1.56 minerals per second and 3.125 gas per second. There is no combination of 5 of these units such that your minerals will stay below 13.6 per second and your gas will stay below 3.8 per second. Proof: It is easy to see that some number of Sentries will be required, since 5 zealots would cost 17.85 minerals per second, and stalkers cost more minerals per second than zealots. You can have at most 1.216 warp gates producing sentries due to gas restrictions (3.8 / 3.125). Assume this is the case. Thus, you need 3.784 warpgates producing Zealot/Stalker. The sentries leave you with 11.7 minerals per second. However, constant Zealot production out of the remaining 3.784 warpgates would equate to 13.51 minerals per second (we're assuming zealots since they are cheaper than stalkers in terms of minerals per second). Notice that decreasing the amount of sentries produced would increase the mineral cost further, since Sentries have the cheapest mineral/min. Thus, we have a contradiction since the 3.784 warpgates of zealot production + the 1.216 warpgates of sentry production put us at 15.4 minerals per second. QED. And this is extremely generous, too. I'm not even including pylon construction or probe construction! JUST the units! Edit: I forgot to answer the OP's question. If you can't support 5 gateways off 1 base, why do good players and even professionals sometimes do it? Answer: Because even professionals and good players slip up on macro. To spend all their money, they will need more gateways than they can support. Once they drop back down to low money, they will end up with a useless gateway unless they expanded. | ||
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eckm
United States72 Posts
This is depressingly simple. Allow me to explain how with 15 paragraphs | ||
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tournamentnow
Australia111 Posts
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Gimpb
293 Posts
So if the value that can be supported is more than 4 but less than 5, building 5 doesn't seem unreasonable. | ||
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FakeDouble
Australia676 Posts
28*4/23 = 4.87 zealots compared to 4 zealots before. Sure, sentries change this a bit, but now zealots cost less per minute. | ||
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ltortoise
633 Posts
On October 22 2010 10:56 Gimpb wrote: It seems you've proven that you can't fully support 5 gateways. However, (and please correct me if I'm wrong), you could support 4.5 gateways worth of zealot sentry assuming you're not building probes or other stuff and are loosing units fast enough that pylons are unnecessary. So if the value that can be supported is more than 4 but less than 5, building 5 doesn't seem unreasonable. Seems pretty unreasonable to me. You're wasting half a production cycle off a warp gate, and the "build" requires you to suicide at least 3 units (of your zealot/sentry) every 14.5 RL seconds (i did the math) or else you'll get supply blocked. If your opponent can defend efficiently, their army will quickly simply be larger than yours, because yours cannot grow. It can only be replenished. | ||
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