EPT5 gate all in off 1 base?
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Baldey
United States28 Posts
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Kolvacs
Canada1203 Posts
You just chrono probes. Whats the point of this post? | ||
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Railgan
Switzerland1507 Posts
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tx.zyclon
United States145 Posts
On October 22 2010 06:38 Kolvacs wrote: You actually can support 5 gateways. You just chrono probes. Whats the point of this post? I think if you read, he's wondering why people 5 gate off one base when he hasn't been able to fund it in his games. Pretty obvious. | ||
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Immaterial
Canada510 Posts
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Parra
United States152 Posts
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Dudemeister
Sweden314 Posts
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Baldey
United States28 Posts
to the person that says chronoboost probes, lol. btw the 5 gate was off a failed DT rush. extra probes never helped no one. i didnt mention it casue i think its assumed that by the time you have 5 gateways you already have full probe saturation. and these people are too good to let their macro slip. with 16-20 probes per 8 mineral patches and both gasses fully saturated, 4 gateways with chronoboost is all i can produce out of. 3 i obviously start piling up minerals, 5 i always have a gateway not doing anything. the only benefit i can see from a 5 gate all in is maybe over saturating probes and having the ability to warp in 5 units instead of 4 when you need them... but i dono if thats effective or if thats what they are doing casue i dont have access to their replays  | ||
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wizard944
194 Posts
1. You stop making probes 2. You constantly attack so that you're losing units and have no need to build pylons. So if you are satisfying these two conditions, then this is truly an all-in in every sense of the term | ||
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Baldey
United States28 Posts
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StrikerZero
United States4 Posts
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
its just more all-in than the 4-gate is all (unless they expod) | ||
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vohne
Philippines197 Posts
On October 22 2010 07:07 wizard944 wrote: I'm pretty sure you can support 5 gates under two conditions: 1. You stop making probes 2. You constantly attack so that you're losing units and have no need to build pylons. So if you are satisfying these two conditions, then this is truly an all-in in every sense of the term You're absolutely right. This 5 gate is pretty much an all in, I have done this. it also involves a lot of sentries. | ||
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TwentyAPM
United States17 Posts
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ltortoise
633 Posts
(thank you eckm!) No, you can't support five gateways off of 1 base. Let's do some math, shall we? Maybe we will learn something from it. A saturated Protoss base (24 probes on 8 mineral patches, and 6 probes on 2 geysers) gets 13.6 minerals per second, and 3.8 gas per second. Now let's look at what a unit costs to produce continuously. We will disregard HT's and DT's because obviously they will be more expensive. We will also disregard chrono boost because that would make things worse. We seek only a combination of units that we can continuously produce off of 5 gateways, with all gateways in continuous usage. (there is some rounding but it should be good enough for you people. anybody who could appreciate the difference would never think that 5 gates could be supported anyway) A Zealot costs 100 minerals and has a 28 second warp gate cooldown. So a Zealot costs 3.57 minerals per second. Similarly, a Stalker costs 3.9 minerals per second and 1.56 gas per second. Sentry is 1.56 minerals per second and 3.125 gas per second. There is no combination of 5 of these units such that your minerals will stay below 13.6 per second and your gas will stay below 3.8 per second. Proof: It is easy to see that some number of Sentries will be required, since 5 zealots would cost 17.85 minerals per second, and stalkers cost more minerals per second than zealots. You can have at most 1.216 warp gates producing sentries due to gas restrictions (3.8 / 3.125). Assume this is the case. Thus, you need 3.784 warpgates producing Zealot/Stalker. The sentries leave you with 11.7 minerals per second. However, constant Zealot production out of the remaining 3.784 warpgates would equate to 13.51 minerals per second (we're assuming zealots since they are cheaper than stalkers in terms of minerals per second). Notice that decreasing the amount of sentries produced would increase the mineral cost further, since Sentries have the cheapest mineral/min. Thus, we have a contradiction since the 3.784 warpgates of zealot production + the 1.216 warpgates of sentry production put us at 15.4 minerals per second. QED. And this is extremely generous, too. I'm not even including pylon construction or probe construction! JUST the units! Edit: I forgot to answer the OP's question. If you can't support 5 gateways off 1 base, why do good players and even professionals sometimes do it? Answer: Because even professionals and good players slip up on macro. To spend all their money, they will need more gateways than they can support. Once they drop back down to low money, they will end up with a useless gateway unless they expanded. | ||
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eckm
United States72 Posts
This is depressingly simple. Allow me to explain how with 15 paragraphs | ||
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tournamentnow
Australia111 Posts
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Gimpb
293 Posts
So if the value that can be supported is more than 4 but less than 5, building 5 doesn't seem unreasonable. | ||
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FakeDouble
Australia676 Posts
28*4/23 = 4.87 zealots compared to 4 zealots before. Sure, sentries change this a bit, but now zealots cost less per minute. | ||
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ltortoise
633 Posts
On October 22 2010 10:56 Gimpb wrote: It seems you've proven that you can't fully support 5 gateways. However, (and please correct me if I'm wrong), you could support 4.5 gateways worth of zealot sentry assuming you're not building probes or other stuff and are loosing units fast enough that pylons are unnecessary. So if the value that can be supported is more than 4 but less than 5, building 5 doesn't seem unreasonable. Seems pretty unreasonable to me. You're wasting half a production cycle off a warp gate, and the "build" requires you to suicide at least 3 units (of your zealot/sentry) every 14.5 RL seconds (i did the math) or else you'll get supply blocked. If your opponent can defend efficiently, their army will quickly simply be larger than yours, because yours cannot grow. It can only be replenished. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
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Galleon.frigate
Canada721 Posts
On October 22 2010 10:56 Gimpb wrote: It seems you've proven that you can't fully support 5 gateways. However, (and please correct me if I'm wrong), you could support 4.5 gateways worth of zealot sentry assuming you're not building probes or other stuff and are loosing units fast enough that pylons are unnecessary. So if the value that can be supported is more than 4 but less than 5, building 5 doesn't seem unreasonable. That is only if you don't have to build pylons or ... anything else... ever, so perhaps a situation where you smash the same 5 units into the the enemy each production cycle with all dying... that doesn't sound good again, there is nothing wrong with accepting that you macro is not perfect and you want to make up for it. or perhaps some situtational fun. Just understand what you're doing. as zerg I happly make extra hatch in base if I am falling behiend. It's important to know what is optimal, it's also equally important to know when not to go 'optimal' | ||
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DiracMonopole
United States1555 Posts
On October 22 2010 06:38 Kolvacs wrote: You actually can support 5 gateways. You just chrono probes. Whats the point of this post? You cant support 5 gateways unless you are rebuilding your army (and already have the pylons in place) | ||
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Galleon.frigate
Canada721 Posts
On October 22 2010 12:34 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: Its better to build army as you are attacked, if youare not attacked, don't build army. With five gates your "army on demand" is faster to get, so you save overall, because you do not need to build an army "just-in-case" do you main zerg? I'm trying not to be rude here. becase that concept doesn't really work other races... at least not in the same sense... The point made eariler in a very informative fashion was that you can't support 4-5 gate without cutting probes, and even pylons. Terran and toss are bottlenecked at 1 maybe 2 worker at a time... which is 3 min per sec... what do you do with the rest, stock pile it until he pushes out? and hope you have as many warpgates as he has units? I'm not even going to say anything more | ||
Aeruthus
United States98 Posts
On October 22 2010 12:34 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: Its better to build army as you are attacked, if youare not attacked, don't build army. With five gates your "army on demand" is faster to get, so you save overall, because you do not need to build an army "just-in-case" Protoss isn't Zerg, we do need to have an army that can match our opponents. Besides that, having production buildings that you're not using 90-100% of the time is bad macro, period. But on to the point of this thread, there is no possible way to support 5 gateways, 4 gateways constantly being produced out of (and chronoboosted because, what else you using it on?) will take pretty much all your money. | ||
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Splendour
Bulgaria129 Posts
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T0fuuu
Australia2275 Posts
On October 22 2010 07:03 Baldey wrote: well specifically im talking about this game set2: http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens2/vod/1207 . but ive seen 5 gate all in many times in the GSL and out. to the person that says chronoboost probes, lol. btw the 5 gate was off a failed DT rush. extra probes never helped no one. i didnt mention it casue i think its assumed that by the time you have 5 gateways you already have full probe saturation. and these people are too good to let their macro slip. with 16-20 probes per 8 mineral patches and both gasses fully saturated, 4 gateways with chronoboost is all i can produce out of. 3 i obviously start piling up minerals, 5 i always have a gateway not doing anything. the only benefit i can see from a 5 gate all in is maybe over saturating probes and having the ability to warp in 5 units instead of 4 when you need them... but i dono if thats effective or if thats what they are doing casue i dont have access to their replays No offense but how did you miss the dt's effects on economy? You are comparing a 4 gate allin to a saturated 5 gate allin off dts. Did you not consider that JMC may have pooled extra resources from his dt harass and could possibly sustain a 5 gateway production for 2 rounds? It may not seem like it would matter but 4 vs 5 stalkers can lose u games in pvp. Personally I think 5 gate has a place in PVX because its works as a adhoc substitute for the 4 gate allin with chrono boost saved for cranking out lots of units. Anyways I guess you already kind of understood this. | ||
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
Also, the extra gate wont be a waste as well, especially when you expand, you have to get the extra production facilities anyway. The gate is kind of like an insurance policy to hold early pushes. Edit: In context to the thread here, the additional production facilities, allows the toss to have extra units at a particular point in time - though its unsustainable for an extended period of time, it is very useful for certain timing attacks, to have a temporarily inflated army count to exploit certain periods of weakness in the opponent's build. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On October 22 2010 18:13 Piledriver wrote: If you watch Day9's Friendday wednesday last week with Huk, he actually gets 3 gate along with a robo (you can only afford 2 gate and a robo on one base with pylons and probs). When Day9 asks about this, he said that its essential to have the extra gate if he gets put under pressure, he can cut probes and pylons , chrono boost off all his production structures and warp in an extra 3-4 units which could be critical to holding off early game pushes. Also, the extra gate wont be a waste as well, especially when you expand, you have to get the extra production facilities anyway. The gate is kind of like an insurance policy to hold early pushes. Edit: In context to the thread here, the additional production facilities, allows the toss to have extra units at a particular point in time - though its unsustainable for an extended period of time, it is very useful for certain timing attacks, to have a temporarily inflated army count to exploit certain periods of weakness in the opponent's build. I was going to bring up a similar point. Sometimes an extra gate can be useful if you're trying to NOT do an all-in, as it lets you defend if they all-in first more effectively. The cool thing about Warp Gates is that you really don't need to be producing out of them at all times nearly as much as Terran players do, as they still have worth even when a unit isn't being built. It's kind of similar to stockpiling larvae to build a response to an attack as Zerg. Perhaps a fast expand or fast Twilight Council with delayed Warp Gate would benefit from 5gating. I'm not sure how cost-effective it would be for an all-in, though. Seeing as it costs you very little, I wouldn't be opposed to testing it. | ||
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Rhaegar99
Australia1190 Posts
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
I would assume with the 4 gate the moment the cooldowns expire you have achieved the necessary resources to fund 4 units. (off 2 gas and your minerals this will most likely be sentry and zealot heavy) But say the next warp cycle you are warping 3 sentries and 1 zealot that is 250/300/8. When you collect resources you dont jump from 0 to 300 instantly it is gradually taken in over time. So the cooldown on the 5th gate we be able to warp in a unit with these minerals that have not quite reached the 250/300 mark earlier. Why not just wait for the cooldowns to expire then warp in 4 units? There could be a dozen reasons say your 4 gate army has pushed out you just warped in 4 units at your proxy pylon and you see a bunch of enemy units nearby your base with a scout attempting to do a runby and kill some probes or infrastructure or something else. You can't warp in a sentry to block that ramp because you just warped in 4 units to do a push. O wait you can because you have the exta warpgate that is ready to go. | ||
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wxwx
527 Posts
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Aeruthus
United States98 Posts
On October 22 2010 19:20 terranghost wrote: Another point that might not make much difference. I would assume with the 4 gate the moment the cooldowns expire you have achieved the necessary resources to fund 4 units. (off 2 gas and your minerals this will most likely be sentry and zealot heavy) But say the next warp cycle you are warping 3 sentries and 1 zealot that is 250/300/8. When you collect resources you dont jump from 0 to 300 instantly it is gradually taken in over time. So the cooldown on the 5th gate we be able to warp in a unit with these minerals that have not quite reached the 250/300 mark earlier. Why not just wait for the cooldowns to expire then warp in 4 units? There could be a dozen reasons say your 4 gate army has pushed out you just warped in 4 units at your proxy pylon and you see a bunch of enemy units nearby your base with a scout attempting to do a runby and kill some probes or infrastructure or something else. You can't warp in a sentry to block that ramp because you just warped in 4 units to do a push. O wait you can because you have the exta warpgate that is ready to go. You should always have a plan ready for "he's doing a run by!", so having a fifth gate to warp in a unit that should already be there is a waste. | ||
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sgflt
10 Posts
On October 22 2010 10:20 ltortoise wrote: No, you can't support five gateways off of 1 base. Let's do some math, shall we? Maybe we will learn something from it. I'd like to add that, under some circumstances, it may be possible to support more than four gateways off of 1 base, but less than 5. Not using chronoboosts and doing away with silly notions such as integers, here's my take: + Show Spoiler + Note: Those numbers are parallel gates making units. With making pylons and with making probes, you can support a constant 1.795 zealots, 0.000 stalkers 1.216 sentries 3.011 (total) With making pylons and without making probes, you can support a constant 2.408 zealots, -0.000 stalkers 1.216 sentries 3.624 (total) Without making pylons and without making probes, you can support a constant 3.276 zealots, -0.000 stalkers 1.216 sentries 4.492 (total) Points to note: * Stalkers are more expensive then zealot/sentry. * 3 Gates is enough if you do not miss a step. You should have very little left over. * 4 Gate should be an all-in. You cannot support making probes and running 4 gates. * 5 Gates is for when you expect not to be making pylons or probes. They will still be a bit inactive. There's a fringe case: + Show Spoiler + Without making pylons and with making probes, you can support a constant 2.716 zealots, -0.000 stalkers 1.216 sentries 3.932 (total) I can't think of very common situation where you would be making probes and units, but no pylons. Numbers were derived from this program (uses Python, cvxmod for linear optimization, source available also at http://paste.pocoo.org/show/278945/): + Show Spoiler + #!/usr/bin/env python # coding=utf8 from cvxmod import * from cvxmod.sets import * from cvxmod.atoms import * # parameters: you_must_construct_additional_pylons = False day9_says_never_stop_making_probes = True mins = optvar('mins') gas = optvar('gas') z = optvar('z') s = optvar('s') e = optvar('e') zealot_warp_time = 28 sentry_warp_time = 32 stalker_warp_time = 32 probe_mineral_cost = 50 probe_build_time = 17 zealot_cost = [100., 0] stalker_cost = [125., 50.] sentry_cost = [50., 100.] min_rate = 13.6 # mining rate, fully saturated base, mins per second gas_rate = 3.8 # mining rate, fully saturated base, gas per second # option: add in pylons: if you_must_construct_additional_pylons: # cost per unit is 25 minerals (they use 2 supply) zealot_cost[0] += 25 stalker_cost[0] += 25 sentry_cost[0] += 25 # option: produce probes if day9_says_never_stop_making_probes: # mining rate decrease by probe cost min_rate -= 50/17 if you_must_construct_additional_pylons: # also figure in cost of building pylons for probes min_rate -= (100./8)/17 constr = [ mins == (zealot_cost[0]/zealot_warp_time) * z + (stalker_cost[0]/stalker_warp_time) * s + (sentry_cost[0]/sentry_warp_time) * e, gas == (zealot_cost[1]/zealot_warp_time) * z + (stalker_cost[1]/stalker_warp_time) * s + (sentry_cost[1]/sentry_warp_time) * e, mins <= min_rate, # mining rate, fully saturated base, mins per second gas <= gas_rate, # mining rate, fully saturated base, gas per second # can't "unwarp" units to gain resources (would be cool though!) z > 0, s > 0, e > 0, ] obj = maximize(z + s + e) P = problem(obj, constr) print P P.solve() print "With%s making pylons and with%s making probes, you can support a constant\n\n %.3f zealots,\n %.3f stalkers\n %.3f sentries\n\n %.3f (total)" % ( 'out' if not you_must_construct_additional_pylons else '', 'out' if not day9_says_never_stop_making_probes else '', z.value[0], s.value[0], e.value[0], z.value[0] + s.value[0] + e.value[0] ) Feel free to point out mistakes. | ||
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vohne
Philippines197 Posts
On October 22 2010 10:20 ltortoise wrote: This is depressingly simple. Allow me to explain how with 15 paragraphs. (thank you eckm!) No, you can't support five gateways off of 1 base. Let's do some math, shall we? Maybe we will learn something from it. A saturated Protoss base (24 probes on 8 mineral patches, and 6 probes on 2 geysers) gets 13.6 minerals per second, and 3.8 gas per second. Now let's look at what a unit costs to produce continuously. We will disregard HT's and DT's because obviously they will be more expensive. We will also disregard chrono boost because that would make things worse. We seek only a combination of units that we can continuously produce off of 5 gateways, with all gateways in continuous usage. (there is some rounding but it should be good enough for you people. anybody who could appreciate the difference would never think that 5 gates could be supported anyway) A Zealot costs 100 minerals and has a 28 second warp gate cooldown. So a Zealot costs 3.57 minerals per second. Similarly, a Stalker costs 3.9 minerals per second and 1.56 gas per second. Sentry is 1.56 minerals per second and 3.125 gas per second. There is no combination of 5 of these units such that your minerals will stay below 13.6 per second and your gas will stay below 3.8 per second. Proof: It is easy to see that some number of Sentries will be required, since 5 zealots would cost 17.85 minerals per second, and stalkers cost more minerals per second than zealots. You can have at most 1.216 warp gates producing sentries due to gas restrictions (3.8 / 3.125). Assume this is the case. Thus, you need 3.784 warpgates producing Zealot/Stalker. The sentries leave you with 11.7 minerals per second. However, constant Zealot production out of the remaining 3.784 warpgates would equate to 13.51 minerals per second (we're assuming zealots since they are cheaper than stalkers in terms of minerals per second). Notice that decreasing the amount of sentries produced would increase the mineral cost further, since Sentries have the cheapest mineral/min. Thus, we have a contradiction since the 3.784 warpgates of zealot production + the 1.216 warpgates of sentry production put us at 15.4 minerals per second. QED. And this is extremely generous, too. I'm not even including pylon construction or probe construction! JUST the units! Edit: I forgot to answer the OP's question. If you can't support 5 gateways off 1 base, why do good players and even professionals sometimes do it? Answer: Because even professionals and good players slip up on macro. To spend all their money, they will need more gateways than they can support. Once they drop back down to low money, they will end up with a useless gateway unless they expanded. Great post. Although there is another way to look at it. If you don't have perfect macro, then you can take advantage of this 5 gate to catch up with your all in. Secondly, you can definitely utilize all the warpgates, but probably with an idle warpgate some of the time. | ||
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Qwix
531 Posts
It's quite of an all-in but with warpgate tech and if times goes by maybe charge it can demolish any early ground units besides banelings so if you encounter the zerg before he's teching Lair > Spire, your rather fine imo. | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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DamageInq
United States283 Posts
-You're fully saturated -You're not making probes -You're losing units thus not making pylons -You're allowing some times in between warps (macro slips) This is all-in play. It's acceptable when you know your opponent expanded faster than you and you know it'll be hard to catch up. | ||
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DND_Enkil
Sweden598 Posts
1) It is possible that you are floating minerals/gas waiting for warp-tech to finish. 2) In case you are under attack you will be able to reinforce quicker if you are losing your army (meaning no pylons and no probes). 3) Warping in one round of zealots (if for example he is pushing hard with zerglings) gives an abundance of gas, having a 5th gateway means that if you have 450 minerals and 150 gas you can get a sentry on top of the zealots. You could argue that you should not have 450 minerals in the first place but i see many protoss trying to float enough minerals for one round of warpin when they are pushing in order to reinforce with exactly the unit they need. Actually I do aswell in some games even on defence. Banking enough resources for one round units is not always bad, this means you can warp in exactly what you need to fend off whatever he is throwing at you, but on the other hand you will lack some units while they warp in, a FF on the ramp should buy you plenty of time. | ||
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OPSavioR
Sweden1465 Posts
On October 22 2010 06:38 Kolvacs wrote: You actually can support 5 gateways. You just chrono probes. Whats the point of this post? A 4warpgate drains 105% of your income if that base is Fully saturated. So a 5Gate is more of an All-In just hold off and he will be dead. | ||
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Lobber
Canada414 Posts
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osten
Sweden316 Posts
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
Excessive maths follow + Show Spoiler + 816 minerals + 228 gas / minute 13.6 / 3.8 zealot: 100 min / 0 gas / 28 sec 3.5 / sec sentry: 50 min / 100 gas / 32 sec 1.6 / sec , 3.1 /sec stalker: 125 min / 50 gas / 32 sec 3.9 / sec , 1.6 Build 5 stalker : money 0/0 32 seconds later: 435 min 121 gas wait 1 second, build 4 zealot and a sentry. 0 min 25 gas left 28 seconds later: 380 min 131 gas wait 7 seconds, 475 min 157.6 gas build 3 stalkers + 1 zealot 32 seconds later: 435 min 129 gas wait a second, again 4 zealot and a sentry... Every 68 seconds: 5 zealot + sentry + 3 stalkers. with a 4 gate, 4 stalker : money 0/0 32 seconds later: 435 min 121 gas build 4 zealot 28 seconds later: 415 min 227 gas wait 6 seconds: 500 min 250 gas build 4 stalkers 32 seconds later: 435 min 171 gas Build 4 zealot 28 seconds later: 415 min 277 gas wait 1 second, build 3 stalkers + sentry Every 66 seconds, 4 zealots 4 stalkers Every 60 seconds, 4 zealots 3 stalkers + sentry Every 126 seconds, 8 zealots 7 stalkers 1 sentry Every 274176 seconds: 1088 zealot, 952 stalkers, 136 sentries Ratio of 1 zealot : .875 stalker : .125 sentries Every 68 seconds: 5 zealot + sentry + 3 stalkers. Every 136 seconds: 10 zealot + 2 sentry + 6 stalkers Every 274176 seconds: 1260 zealots, 756 stalkers, 252 sentries, Ratio of 1 zealot : .6 stalkers : .2 sentries .93 5 WG : 1 4WG 4 WG: Ratio of 1 zealot : .875 stalker : .125 sentries Value: 215.6 / 56.3 5 WG: Ratio of 1 zealot : .6 stalkers : .2 sentries Value: 185 / 50 In conclusion 4 WG simply is a better use of your money if you're building in waves. You can always chronoboost a gateway, too, to make 4WG better, and it is wasted with a 5WG. | ||
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