On October 17 2010 07:25 Shootemup. wrote: I was messing around with this build in some custom games today, and I have to say that it is really good.
This is a replay that I played against a random player, and I have to say that mass tanks works really well. I think that this build is probably at its weakest early on, but once your economy kicks in the amount of units you can build just gets ridiculous.
May i ask what rank you are? im trying to get NitrOuS to organize it. he isnt doing well.( at organizeing this thread)
I am almost 900 Diamond, I have no clue what my opponent was as it was a custom. Also, I agree that even after the numerous nerfs to tanks, they are still incredibly good, imagine if they still did a flat 60 damage :D
I feel that starports are only really necessary if the Protoss goes for air tech of some kind. I was making sure to constantly scan him with my Orbitals, as I didn't really need the minerals once it got to late-game. I feel that this build is great on ladder maps with easily defendable naturals, but more open naturals would be a struggle to hold.
On October 16 2010 12:15 petzergling wrote: 1 rax no stim w/ tanks u are gonna have a whole lot of fun against any early aggression like void rays, 4gate, immortal pushes, etc
VRs are killed by marines. 4 gate build can be tweaked. immortal pushes marine tank basically counters. marines slice shield, tanks kill everything else.
so your telling me that 1 rax making marines can hold of void rays, immortal pushes, zealots, etc?
On October 16 2010 12:15 petzergling wrote: 1 rax no stim w/ tanks u are gonna have a whole lot of fun against any early aggression like void rays, 4gate, immortal pushes, etc
VRs are killed by marines. 4 gate build can be tweaked. immortal pushes marine tank basically counters. marines slice shield, tanks kill everything else.
so your telling me that 1 rax making marines can hold of void rays, immortal pushes, zealots, etc?
1 rax marines and tanks can hold off quite a bit actually, however, stargate openings are the hardest to deal with from what I have experienced with this build.
Umm actually, as I said you can skip marines and make an engineering bay first vs. Voidrays, or make up to 8 marines, easily holding off immortal pushes (Since marines own immortals pretty bad) and zealots arent that good versus tanks behind a wall. Since you probably wont be making marines anymore by the time you take your natural, you can use it as part of a wall to hold off zealots, and 8 marines can be on high ground. Since you constantly make tanks, there should really be no problem versus 4 gate. If you get an early engineering bay, turrets are quite good holding off void rays, and then you can add a starport and make vikings, so you end up with a 1/1/1 with 1 expo.
I tried the build, sort of. Changed some things around to suit my situation. I would say a starport with a reactor + well placed sensor towers is a requirement to this build. Tanks are just too immobile to keep unseiging and seiging. I played on Shakuras plateau, and he broke through the rocks leading into my main. You need those towers to warn you ahead of time. The starport will get you started if they do go air, and if not, medivacs for hellion drops.
One weakness I found was the lack of scouting. If he did any proxy stargate or something, I probably would've lost very quickly, as this is a very defensive build most of the game. And not very mobile either, save for hellions. So I ended up opting for 4 marines off the bat instead of 2. I got lucky scouting a support bay, so I knew he was going colossi. But you can't really rely on lucky scans to do your scouting, as you really need those mules to stay even with their chronoboosted probes.
In your 1st replay, when you got your 3rd, it was completely undefended. If your toss opponent scouted, he could've easily shut it down. That's not a good way to make a build, to depend on your opponent to not scout you. Especially when they have map control. I found blue hellion drops to be ridiculously effective for drops and zealots. I suggest getting a starport earlier, optionally a reactor as well, and doing hellions drops before expanding. Rather than just hoping on them not scouting.
I also opted for a ghost with energy and cloak for emp. I know you completely ignored it, but it's so effective vs. templars/immortals. Templars especially.
I find the early game + taking a 3rd expo to be extremely difficult. Because you're guessing what they're going to do, and you give up map control to get those tanks.
Here's a replay, but I didn't follow your build though. I couldn't remember your build at the time, all I knew was 2 armories and lots of tanks/factories/hellions ;P
I play as Random, and Terran is my worst race, best is Zerg. So yeah, my APM is quite low as I was confused a lot during the game. My opponent could've expanded more and earlier, but he didn't. Not sure why, maybe he was afraid of me pushing out.
Well, I feel that it doesnt really matter how much you change the build, as long as you get the basics down. The aim for this build is to get 2 early armories, and a fast natural. I think the sensor towers are actually quite effective like you say, and I'll add into my play. I feel like this style wasnt supposed to be exactly as the BO is, but a more adaptable mech build vs. protoss allowing your tanks splash to take off health and letting other units finish them. I think youre right at how I left my 3rd open in that game :D. I like your ideas, and the ghosts are essential as you say.
Could give some advice on how to safely take a 3rd with this build? And earlier scouting methods to know if he's going air, dts, or robo. Or at least things to look for (and at what time), to make safe assumptions. I don't want to rely on any lucky things.
Umm, I suggest to take a 3rd, you should probably pressure the protoss, or just expand. It usually depends on the map you play, for example metalopolis and LT its easy to take a 3rd, while on maps like blistering sands its quite a big harder. I suggest making engineering bay depot wall around a pfort, and adding turrets. If you play on iccup maps, its actually quite easy to take a 3rd. As for the map I played on, Fighting Spirit, you can wall off the ramp with depots and put tanks behind it. To scout, you can use scan because this build isnt too mineral heavy as it is gas heavy. Mostly, once you start pushing out at whatever time you set for yourself, keep pushing along wherever you are and take the expansions where your army is near, so if your 3rd or whatever base is attacked, your army is nearby.
Let's say the map is Blistering Sands. The Protoss has map control with an observer outside your base. Which expo would be your 3rd, and how would you take it safely? Or would it be better to just build up and move out with +2 on 2 bases?
I feel it would be safer to start moving out on +2 and while pushing taking the 3rd near your back door and continue pushing like that.
The light blue is your spawn and nat, the red is your push path, and the green is where you expand. That is how I would expand, then taking the gold and things, since there are rocks.
What I fear is that big area outside the nat. You can get attacked from 3 angles there.
Can a seiged tank on the tower platform reach over the entire middle path? If it can't, the 3rd near the backdoor would a rather poor choice since you would have to defend 3 chokes instead of 2, by going for the one further north. Which would also give access to a safer gold.
Well I feel that going from the 3rd near the backdoor can easily be reinforced if you break down your backdoor and gains control of the "sweetspot" infront of your main, meaning you really only have to watch the other choke. Another thing you have to account for is that the Protoss is getting pressured all the while, probably not going to be counter attacking soon, and if they do go for a base trade, you can lift :D.
Can you up some more replays of yourself in maps similar to this? Where the 3rd isn't so easy to take. Preferably against higher diamonds. The one I played against in my replay was ~1700, but didn't seem like it. I seem to be missing something, and I could learn a lot from replays.
I keep thinking your entire army needs to be together in order to take on his entire army. And his is much, much more mobile. So if you spread yourself too thin, you're in a lot of trouble.
After more practice of this build, ghosts are MANDITORY. Immortals, if micro'd, just destroy the hell out of your tanks. I've lost so many games to them, then I got a ghost. Also, the lack of anti air really sucked for me. They got 1 void ray and I had to retreat the entire army. Luckily I had built up a turret nearby, and immediately started pumping out vikings. But had he made more void rays, I would've been in big trouble.
Almost turns into a game of BW, where I push out with tanks, hellions, scvs, a couple of ravens, and build turrets along the way.
Umm sorry guys, been busy lately and using the build haha. So here is a replay on Jungle Basin, which I consider has a weirdly placed 3rd, although not as bad as Blistering Sands. Here is the replay :
Anyways as in the replay, I kind of got my armory a bit late since Im a bit out of practice, but anyways its still basically the same build. You do not really have to wall off, for most people I faced havent really gone 4 gate anymore, so I sim citied it and got 4 marines, and a sort of delayed expansion. I noticed if you get your engineering bay at 28, you can easily fend off voidrays and dark templar. Since getting a fast third on this map is hard, I added 3 factories, and then a starport, pushed out at 2/1 and then took a 3rd. I constantly reinforced, denied his 3rd and 4th, and took care of his voidrays with vikings. With the new change to voidrays, its much harder to deal with them but they still lose to many vikings. Another thing to note is that, with double splash damage from tanks and hellions, you can kill many enemies at once. I think that adding thors could be more beneficial than adding vikings now, considering that Voidrays now do much less DPS at full charge. Another thing I'd like to point out is that, even if you are getting contained it is OK, just mass up and at whatever upgrades you feel is good, push out.
Just watched the last replay. Senth didn't play that well. After seeing all your tanks, he kept making zealots/stalkers/collosus. He added void rays really late. If he went void rays earlier, he would have taken out ALL your tanks before you added vikings. He had an observer in your base so he knew you didn't have a starport...
How is engineering bay good against void rays? 3-4 void rays can take down a turret easy and you can't put turrets everywhere. They can snipe your tanks so easily without marines.
Ooh bright idea- the counter to mech play is immortal, no?
Ok so with the double armory we are heavily investing in mech, however we also can build thors.
Include: researching the 250mm cannon to counter immort play. All of a sudden, what does protoss have against mech? chargelots- hellions to support tank thor. HT- Flatup, no they won't be good Colo- more 250mm cannon. Air- thors do strong anti air attacks and could even switch to making vikings.
That leaves mass stalker, with blink should work, but idk those double upgrades with thor tank seems like it would be very powerful.
Perhaps the build should be more economic based though, because what I just listed above requires a lot of resources.
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