i do the siege expand vs toss alot and and surviving early pressure is easy once you figure it out, it all comes down to placement: where you put your tanks where you build your bunkers what position your opponent is at.

Shootemup.

United States1044 Posts

October 26 2010 01:25 GMT

#62

On October 25 2010 15:27 nalgene wrote:
Does this work vs zerg?

This exact build is dicey vs. Zerg, as tanks are very bad to the standard Lair Tech from Zerg, Mutalisks. I do a type of build similar to this TvZ, I just use hellions early game to force my opponent to not mass zerglings, and then I go for Thors, which deal with Mutas and Roaches pretty well, although the new 4 range Roaches seem to hold their own a lot better vs. Thors, meaning a more defensive playstyle and tanks after the first 4 or so Thors is critical.

On October 25 2010 13:09 Zvendetta wrote:
Ooh bright idea-
the counter to mech play is immortal, no?

Ok so with the double armory we are heavily investing in mech, however we also can build thors.

Include: researching the 250mm cannon to counter immort play. All of a sudden, what does protoss have against mech? chargelots- hellions to support tank thor. HT- Flatup, no they won't be good Colo- more 250mm cannon. Air- thors do strong anti air attacks and could even switch to making vikings.

That leaves mass stalker, with blink should work, but idk those double upgrades with thor tank seems like it would be very powerful.

Perhaps the build should be more economic based though, because what I just listed above requires a lot of resources.

I feel that a Thor opening has a lot of potential for the reasons you stated, as it would dominate any Immortal heavy composition, at least early game. Thors are also decent against Gateway units before the Chargelots come out. I am also more inclined to use Thors now as they aren't completely useless late-game as High Temps don't absolutely crush them anymore.

No0n

United States355 Posts

October 27 2010 00:59 GMT

#63

I feel thors are not really effective in this strategy, and they are too expensive. I feel like having tanks worth of 300 mins 200 gas is a much better investment than one thor. Vikings can easily replace the AA capabilities and with good sim city there are no problems with immortals. Hellion and Tank splash together can do very well versus anything protoss can throw at you from the ground, especially once they get 3/3 upgrades. Maybe if you want to pursue the thor tech path you'd have to make one tank then save up, or something similar.

Techno

1900 Posts

October 27 2010 01:24 GMT

#64

When do you get your second gas?
How does it fare against a 1 or 3 gate robo immortal push?

No0n

United States355 Posts

October 27 2010 01:41 GMT

#65

It fares quite well vs. 1 or 3 gate robo immortal push, especially if you add 4 marines on with a single bunker if scouted or not. If you dont scout, you'll probably have to pull some SCVs. I get my second gas quite early, probably when I get 75 mins after the factory goes down.

Shootemup.

United States1044 Posts

October 28 2010 01:03 GMT

#66

Actually, 300 mins and 200 gas is just shy of two tanks, and the fact that Tanks are not as good in small numbers compared to Thors may warrant some investigation, at least for the early game. For the late game, I agree that Tank-Hellion is the best combo, as tanks get really scary really fast in large numbers with their no overkill, combined with EMP it is just ridiculously strong.

For a 3 gate robo push you should continue to pump marines, especially on maps with more open naturals, I find that 8 marines is usually enough to hold off the initial push, after that the mass tanks should take care of the rest.

CraftedSC

31 Posts

October 28 2010 01:16 GMT

#67

In BW mech was extremely powerful. Tank, vulture, goliath was extremely effective because they all recieved the double armory upgrades. Unfortunately, we dont have these units and mech is really not what it was in beta. You need a more diversified army. Thor + tanks will have serious problems vs blink stalkers or voidrays.

Shootemup.

United States1044 Posts

October 28 2010 01:35 GMT

#68

On October 28 2010 10:16 CraftedSC wrote:
In BW mech was extremely powerful. Tank, vulture, goliath was extremely effective because they all recieved the double armory upgrades. Unfortunately, we dont have these units and mech is really not what it was in beta. You need a more diversified army. Thor + tanks will have serious problems vs blink stalkers or voidrays.

Yes, it is quite dificult to go pure mech against protoss. However, with the no overkill, Blink Stalkers actually aren't much of a problem, especially if you use the Hellions to keep a distance between enemy Stalkers and your Tanks. A Late-Game pure mech army, with a few ghosts thrown in, will dominate just about any Protoss ground army. The Real issue is Void Rays, but you can throw down some Starports real quick to get some Vikings to deal with the Voids, and you have two Armories to get some fast ups for you Vikings as well with this build.

No0n

United States355 Posts

October 28 2010 03:28 GMT

#69

Well, I was thinking that pure mech is quite good actually, as for when I have two bases I rally into my main and blink stalkers arent a huge problem. With the easier mechanics, you can easily group tanks into 1 group and siege up, and the power of upped hellions is undervalued. Upped hellions can do a lot of damage to stalkers that blink up to your tanks. Voidrays are quite easy to deal with especially with the starport timing and engineering bay timing as Shootemup said. Adding ghosts would be very beneficial, and if you have more than three bases, I would have no problem even adding ravens in. This totally nullifies protoss on the ladder because everyone on the ladder DOES NOT UPGRADE (Atleast what Ive seen).

zhouzhou

Canada138 Posts

November 16 2010 06:56 GMT

#70

On 3 bases, you have enough gas to produce 4 tanks constantly, but you won't very much gas surplus. However, it does leave you with a lot of minerals, even if you're producing hellions from 2 reactor factories. So perhaps a rax or 2 with reactors to provide marine support would be useful. It would do very well against immortals and void rays.

Maybe you could approach this build with a barracks opening. That way you'll have the stim and shield upgrades when you use them later. And opening with infantry is much safer. Use the extra barracks to float into their base to scout, much cheaper than a scan.

positron.

634 Posts

November 16 2010 07:41 GMT

#71

Any replays?

micjmac

42 Posts

November 18 2010 04:19 GMT

#72

I like the concept behind this build. Bio is too weak against protoss IMO. Also, I really enjoyed mech play in BW, so that is a plus too. I'm concerned about void rays and blink stalkers. Do you have more replays to demonstrate this strategy against a variety of protoss builds/unit compositions? I think if refined even further, this build could be real solid. I might try to tinker around with this a bit since I am losing almost every TvP on the ladder lately, so I have nothing to lose really.

Bommes

Germany1226 Posts

November 18 2010 08:16 GMT

#73

I don't get why they don't change the thor, less ground damage but more air damage (most likely faster attackrate instead of more dmg, with less amount of attacks because of armor) with less (or no) splash and without that +light modifier. It would be so beneficial to overall playstyle of terran mech, because a good amount of thors could actually counter protoss air, and it would stop these weird 1-base thor+scv timing pushes which are not really nice to watch for spectators. I'm not sure how they intended the role of the thor, but for it's the main AA of the terran mech-tree, but it just fails to do that...
I mean the thor is pretty damn slow, it should be able to counter every air unit cost by cost and not only the light ones with 0 or 1 armor.

This would 100% be something I would like to see at least tested by Blizzard. Else we have to wait for HotS to get some good mech AA I guess.

But, besides a good reliable AA-path (Vikings are so bad for your unit mix and they even suck against VRs) terran mech against protoss is damn fine imo

No0n

United States355 Posts

December 16 2010 00:12 GMT

#74

Well Vikings dont suck that much, and if you're slow pushing it shouldn't be that much of a problem. Maybe if you mixed Vikings/thors to deal with air and immortals, maybe that could work? And replays are on the OP