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Hello this is my first post, be gentle  , i'm an educated noob
i'm wondering how hard counters works in sc2? Because is little confusing.
Let's see. Zealots beats marauders, but marauders can micro zealots, so a good micro should be capable to "cheat" the hard counters of the game?
Another example, Roaches beats reapers and stalkers but reapers and stalkers can micro roaches so... it is the same?
Why 1 unit that its suppose to be the counter than another is unable to counter maneuver that unit? this simply doesn't make sense
Its like having two aircrafts, one stronger and other light and faster, what aircraft would win the battle, the faster because the other one cannot catch them
So in design unit "x" its a counter to unit "y" but in reality its unit "y" that counter unit "x". And that simply will ruin the design isn't it?
i still learning this games and i strugling because how do i think a strategy when the theory said zealots beats marauders but the reality its another?
Its a problem design or its and skill problem or what?
Thank u in advance
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If you're coming from other RTSes, SC's counter system can be a lot different. On AoE for example, skirmishers counter archers. There's no way around it.
The counters are just a little more complex. In this case, you can say "banshees counter marines unless marines can catch them" (i.e. stim). There's still a counter system, there's just more conditionals.
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this is a not-so-cunningly disguised 'nerf marauder' thread.
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I think it was Day9 that said something along the line, "There are no 'hard-counters' in this game, just units that are really good against other units." So yes there are counters, but like iEchoic said its not just X counters Y, it's X is really good against Y under these circumstances or conditions.
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On October 12 2010 05:41 hoovehand wrote:
this is a not-so-cunningly disguised 'nerf marauder' thread.
Nah, I played AoE for many years prior to SC, so what he's asking is legit. It takes a bit of time to get used to the movement of other games. In a straight up battle is what F12 will tell you but some units have modifiers (conc shell, charge), which cancel each other out when equally upgraded
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Zealots beat marauders without concussive. After terran gets concussive, zealot can get charge to counter. Roaches are not a counter to stalkers.
Roaches with speed upgrade kill reapers.
I guess upgrades are the answer in this situation
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Hoovehand: no it isn't shut up.
Camilocraft: They talk about counters in terms of the purpose and skills of the unit. For instance: a zergling is the counter of the stalker; however, 3 zerglings can't kill 1 stalker even if the stalker stands still. What they are referring to are attack speeds, health, air, ground, or invisible, etc.
Example 2: Marauders are the counters to roaches. Why? Well because roaches take extra damage to marauders weapons. And zerglings kill marauders yet an equal amount of roaches which get countered by marauders kill marauders better than the zerglings. Why? Because the marauder's counter are zerglings because zerglings attack fast, come in large numbers, and have low health. Thus the slow clumsy marauder is weak against them. However: Roaches have more health and damage and therefore 20 roaches will do a lot better against 10 marauders than 20 zerglings.
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Your theory works only in small army numbers, e.g. 2 marauders vs 2 zealots but not in big armies.
It's just a beginner problem u've got, dont try to find the mistake in the game
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There is no A, B,C counter system, or every game would pretty much be a photo-copy of others. Just ending at different points- depending on macro. The game is designed to reward good micro and better scouting... rather than A>B>C... I don't think its to the same extent that is in BW- but any unit can be better if it's micro'd properly.
I really think the idea that "1 unit that its suppose to be the counter than another is unable to counter maneuver that unit".... is the wrong way to think. Starcraft will never work like: "I have B so you don't make A." Mr.Day[9] is big on that- if you have ENOUGH roaches, you can counter marauders- or if you burrow and pop up underneath them. Same with Mutas/Thors- even Baneling/Marine or Sentry/Ling- the winner is going to be the one with the best micro.
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On October 12 2010 05:41 hoovehand wrote:
this is a not-so-cunningly disguised 'nerf marauder' thread.
No i only trying to understand the mechanincs, if i understand well, and the marauder its a perfect example because any no terran player hates them,
i want to understand that the zealots beats marauders if only if..., for example have a wall behind
its more clear and let me think when i could send a group of zealots and rape the marauders
but then there are no hard counters, just tactic counters oohhh i'm learning
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There are a few hard counters. Like, obviously mutalisks hard counter tanks because tanks can't even hit mutalisks.
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I am a bronze league dude, but the roaches get countered by the marauders. So the Terran will try to engage non-speed roaches off creep. A silver league guy might be able to recognize this and try to "bait" the mauraders with the roaches then swarm in with speedlings. The silver league dude can then retreat his roaches because the marauders can't escape the speedlings surround.
amidoinitrite?
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i have two more questions because this really helps (if i understanding right )
1. in big armys fights the counters are less visible or more visible?
2. "The game is designed to reward good micro and better scouting", is this the holy grial? if is, i gonna improve my micro first and multitasking and stop learning counters
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Banelings counter marines, HARD but if there are enough marines you can out DPS the banelings before their splash even touches you. You use the units that do bonus damage but in a smart way. For example, burrowed banelings is a smart example of trapping marines without taking damage on the way towards them.
But the more you mass units the less of an effect counters have, they are more noticable when it's the early stages of the game or there is only one of that unit that was brought out to help against an army composition. If you go mass roaches against a protoss who brings out one immortal, then the immortal is surely a counter so you want to take precaution but you can still beat the immortal by using strategy, tactics and macro (aka building a bigger army). So A isn't > than B just because of it's stats, there is more that goes into it. This is a concept that took me awhile to figure out as well, it isn't something that you get over night.
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There are a few hard counters. Like, obviously mutalisks hard counter tanks because tanks can't even hit mutalisks.
This opens up another whole discussion about counters, because no terran would just make straight tanks. They would take marines to support them, hence "countering" the mutas. So unit composition is always an important consideration.
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I never understood the system behind SC2 (and SC in general) as a typical rock-papers-scissors game where every - or at least most - units have a "hard counter". Every unit has its situational advantages and disadvantages, which has to be applied/balanced by the players through tactics and unit composition.
If you want to think of "counters", think of ressource-efficient deals. Marauders are efficient against roaches, zerglings are efficient against marauders. But only in a standard situation. Zerglings need enough surface to deal damage, a choke or a "critical mass ball" of marauders can change that. And if you simply got enough roaches you can still kill marauders with them - you just won't make a good deal.
Micro is essentially you putting "out-game-ressources" (your apm/focus) into your units to make them more efficient.
Upgrades can change the situation, make micro more effective or simply make the units be worth more.
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On October 12 2010 06:03 camilocraft wrote:
i have two more questions because this really helps (if i understanding right )
1. in big armys fights the counters are less visible or more visible?
2. "The game is designed to reward good micro and better scouting", is this the holy grial? if is, i gonna improve my micro first and multitasking and stop learning counters
1. different compositions tend to be better in small or larger numbers. but in general i'd say counters become more visible in big army fights as there is less gained from micro in large battle. (example roaches counter hellions but in small numbers hellions can kite roaches and kill them because they have longer range, but in large numbers there is not enough time and space to kite the roaches). However counters even in big army fights can be overcome by tactics and macro.
2. improve your macro first (always build units and don't get supply blocked) but yes macro micro and multitask are far more important than unit counters.
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Focus less on individual unit counters and more on unit compositions. You are almost never going to have a pure marauder army vs a pure zealot army, so why worry about who wins that fight. Starcraft also has a lot of other variables that drastically sway a battle... troop positioning, attack timing, micro, terrain,etc.. Also improve scouting (need to know where opponent's army is in order to position your troops correctly).
just keep playing and watching replays, things will start to mesh
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On October 12 2010 06:03 camilocraft wrote:
i have two more questions because this really helps (if i understanding right )
1. in big armys fights the counters are less visible or more visible?
2. "The game is designed to reward good micro and better scouting", is this the holy grial? if is, i gonna improve my micro first and multitasking and stop learning counters
1. If the armies are diverse, the counters will be less visible.
2. NO. Multitasking, macro first. Micro later.
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imo., there are soft counters and hard counters.
soft counter to me is like lings vs marauders. lings can surround and marauders don't do extra damage to lings but eventually when the marauders hit a critical mass or ball rather, the ling's cant surround all of them but only the outer ones which ends up marauders winning.
hard counter is like blue flame hellions vs lings. Or vikings vs brood lords.
Meh, my .02 cents.
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EPT
