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Hello there!
I know that SC2 is a 1on1 focussed game in the first place but I enjoy plaing 2v2 as random a lot with a good friend of mine.
However I am somewhat unsure what to do with zerg. This does not relate to some balance-discussion at all! so pls keep that aside.
Now the question I have is: What should you do as Zerg in 2v2s?
Z is in 1v1s a rather reactionary and defensive race. And you can actually hold off pushes quite cost-effectively with queens and spinecrawlers and a couple of units so that you don't have to sacrifice too many larvae on fighting units.
However in 2v2s I find it very hard to do that.
As T or P you can do the same stuff in 2v2s you can do in 1on1s. Get an army. Move out at the right time. Attack.
The problem in 2vs2 is that static defenses are bad - and they get worse the further your and your ally's base are away from each other. So spinecrawlers and queens (they are somehow "static") help you to defend your base but they are useless if your opponents attack your ally.
So you always have to make a mobile army to be able to help your ally. And that is something zerg doesn't necessarily want.
I was playing around a bit regarding strategies and here is what I kinda found to be useful:
1. playing aggressively as zerg: make lots of zerglings to contain your enemies and deny their expansions. Transition into banelings to break wall-ins and let your ally take the map and get an army.
2. get roaches and push with your ally. Kinda an all-in style but works quite well.
3. try to take bases and go for a macro-intense playstye. hope that your ally can hold off well on his own (good terran wall, FF for toss). this is pretty close to 1v1 style with the difference that due to the map design it can be hard to take a 3rd base.
Most of the time I do 1 or 3. Depending on the map. There are some where your and your ally's base are very close to each other, on others having map control with zerglings is a great advantage.
What are your general ideas on zerg-play in 2v2s and what are your favourite strategies?
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For when I play 2v2s with my zerg friend I find what helps me the most is your first idea about being aggressive. It really helps me out in getting an expo up if zerg is aggressive so I can get an expo up easier without having to be worried about a 2 player push right when it starts. After your partner gets an expo I think switching to more macro-intense play will work better.
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Hey man, I'm pretty noob bout 1000 diamond 1v1 and plat 2v2 w my terran partner who's like 1200 diamonnd 1v1. Depending on our opponents we do 2 different openings, we go heavy roach marauder, or lingblingrine, the strats work well unless we get cheesed double 6 pool or reaper 6 pool or cannon in base. My issue is that I feel my mid to late game is affected by me not fast expanding. A lot of 2v2 maps its difficult to defend fe especially against early double push. If I can pull of like a 20 hatch or 26 hatch, full sat on gas I tech to muta asap and harass oppposite my allies drop harass..
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Speedling (and Baneling if it's Z or T) -> Muta -> Ultra will work pretty much every game
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On October 07 2010 00:55 manicsquare wrote:
For when I play 2v2s with my zerg friend I find what helps me the most is your first idea about being aggressive. It really helps me out in getting an expo up if zerg is aggressive so I can get an expo up easier without having to be worried about a 2 player push right when it starts. After your partner gets an expo I think switching to more macro-intense play will work better.
The only problem with strategy 1 (being agressive) is that on some maps your opponents can wall off together and thus protect their expansions. For example on Scorched Haven or Assualt on Tarsonis. In that case your aggressive play won't bring you that far. But your opponent can expand savely and attack if he wants to.
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My 2v2 partner is a zerg, i'm a terran (random now) so I have some experience with the z/t combo at least. Unit composition really depends on what your opponents are and the map. On maps with a shared base I will usually wall off and my partner will 15 hatch or even double expand based on the scout. You can then just do whatever you want because zerg econ gets ridiculously huge ridiculously fast if you don't have to build units. Ling reaper is probably the most common strategy at the lower ranks for z/t and its a pretty strong combo due to the mobility of speedlings and reapers and their synergy vs tier 1 and tier 1.5 units. Some other tactics you can try are:
1) 5 roach rush. One night we decided to spam games with him going 5 roach rush with speedling followup (or 5 roach rush with banelings + slowlings) combined with straight up mass marines (5-6 rax marines with no gas till about 30 food) and we won about 18/20 of our games (this was around top of diamond at the time). This combo hits early and its really hard to stop without good micro. The roaches act as a meat shield for the super high dps marines and can soak up banelings and kill sentries pretty well. Not sure how you would incorporate 5rr with other races but I would imagine there are some unit combos that would work. The difficulty is transitioning out of it if heavy damage isn't done.
2) Vs any comp that doesn't have a zerg, mass speedling is pretty strong and its still strong vs a zerg if you have confidence in your antibaneling micro. It pays to be aggressive and get map control in 2's so speedling are the natural answer for that.
3) We've been experimenting with mass queens + stimmed marauders vs toss/terran comps. After lair, nydus near their base and spit out like 8 queens so they don't have to walk so far. If you do the timing right, the queens can act like super medivacs for the beefy marauders and with the extra gas you can get infestors or mutas. Its actually pretty scary because transfuse is very efficient for marauders.
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I made it to the 2v2 top 50 in europe with my zerg ally, so i have some experience on the question.
Generally the zergs role (at least with our general strategy) is to maintain map control with his highly mobile units (speedlings at first mutas later) which will allow his ally to outmacro your opponents duo to a base advantage. So it pretty much comes down to your first point.
Early game banelings also help a lot with mass t1 unit early aggression especially since in 2v2 its so much easier to pull off a two pronged attack where your opponent cant run from the banelings.
Mid game the zerg will have to rely on his ally to provide the "muscle" (as day9 would say) while denying expansions and doing the majority harassing, whereas in late game the powerful t3 units allow him to take a more frontal apporach and usually finish the game.
Your allys role would be to be the muscle of your team through early and mid game protecting you with a large amount of strong (and not necessarily mobile) units by holding key positions on the map and also using the map control that you provide him with to macro up further.
Additionally you can try to finish the game to punish too greedy opponents since your ally will be massing units early anyway. Zerglings make exellent meatshields for a terran bio force while banelings shut down mass t1 counterattacks. Often enough an early push with a sling/baneling (not too many since you dont want to delay your tech too much) supported bio force can gain you an early advantage.
Oh and dont waste banelings to bust down walls, your ally has units to shoot those down safely after all unless he is zerg as well .
Also i advice against roach openings in 2v2, out of more than 300 games played we havent lost a single one where the zerg opened roaches. (against our zerg terran combo dont know how it fares against other combinations i admit)
As always modyfications for specific situations are absolutely necessary but the general strategy should be clear.
Edit: I would only advice on zeals proposed 15 hatch if the natural can be walled in as well, otherwise it is jsut too prone to early agression. Then again on those maps it might work but i admit i voted those down since i dont like turtle play very much 
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I play ZP in 2v2's, being the Zerg myself.
A: Roach Rush + 2 Gate. It's quite a decent early game attack that still leaves both of you in a good position to expand/tech. We have had quite a success with this strategy.
B: Infestors + High Templar. This combo is ridiculously good. It basically annihilates huge armies in a blink of an eye, while giving your opponent very little options to counter it.
C: Gaspool and Mutas. You can get a lot of mutas fast, and more or less decimate enemy economy. All you need is "some" gas from your ally.
Regarding the general playstyle, though, I don't have much to say. Both of you will have to adapt a bit: You can rush fast, but if that fails, you really don't want to keep the pressure as Zerg, whereas the Protoss player would naturally transition to 4-gate and go to town. You'll have to invest more in combat units than in 1v1's, but at the same time, the Protoss player has to tech up / economy up more.
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I saw a post in the 'protoss is weakest in 2v2' thread that helped my ZX play a bunch:
On September 09 2010 23:02 theqat wrote:aristeo & cubert have one of the best 2v2 win ratios (118-12 or so) playing zp without cheesing against one z their p goes fast stalker with no wall-in and puts the stalker in his mineral line for easy probe defense. z sends lings to help if necessary against two z their p walls and makes at least one zealot to start here's a pack of their reps: http://dl.free.fr/e6ks3xFq8/MYMReplaypackAristeo&cubert.zip
Watch that replay pack. THAT is how you play ZP. ZT is probably similar, with the Terran going reapers. I don't know how effective ling/reaper is in 1.1 with the reaper build time nerf.
my build:
14 gas
14 pool
15 overlord
@ 100% pool, queen + 2 lings
at this point, pure lings
ling speed @ 100 gas (almost immediately when pool finishes)
baneling nest @ 50 gas
@ 100% baneling nest morph banelings
This is a great built that gives you fast lings, decent economy, early ling speed, and early banelings, as well as being able to handle any fast aggression from your opponents. If either opponent tries a cute defense/tech build, baneling bust and double-team attack will almost always kill him.
On maps where the team shares a choke (Discord IV & Twilight Fortress for example), baneling busts are a bit harder to execute, and you can't really abuse your ling mobility; you may want to do a ling/muta build instead.
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Depends on matchup ofc, but most often its nice to open pure ling (or roaches if you really need) and then tech to fairly fast mutas. Mutas are just godly in 2v2, and it allows your team to outexpand the opponent, as long as you're active with them and transition out of it in time.
Keep the speedlings off to the side, a bit away from the side (not in the path to the enemy obviously), so your opponent can engage directly while you surround from behind, and your lings dont get trapped behind a wall etc...
Eventually you'll ofc want broodies and/or ultras.
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I started playing z in 2v2 recently. Currently I play:
- 9 pool to start being aggressive fast.
- 11 pool for early queen into speedling banes
- 14 gas 14 pool for speedling FE.
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i go 9/10 pool into either a baneling bust if v terran or pressure while tecting to roaches or mutas
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The role of Zerg in 2v2 is to pressure your opponents by playing aggressively early and mid game to setup a strong lategame where you and you ally simply steamroll your opponents with superior macro and economy. Find good spots to harass, but don't be a maniac. Know when to slow down and transition. Speedlings into Muta should be standard.
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I am quite a new member here and I have to say: I am amazed by the profound and very helpful answers! Thanks to all who replied in this thread so far. You really extended my horizon on this matter!
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early game > harass (most games end here)
mid game > build infestors to go with your allies push (most unfinished games end here)
late game > make lots of ultras (game definitely ends here)
i'm going to use this space to gloat about how i'm #10 on the usa 2v2 ladder. :cool:
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5rr combined with almost any other unit composition will work wonderfully and has worked wonderfully for me. There is little that can be done and, depending on who you attack, there could quite possibly be no counter for it.
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5RR is amazing. especially if your ally goes for a quick 2-unit composition as well.
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Zerg's pretty weak in 2v2. I played it for awhile.. Without ing/reaper builds which are incredibly strong... Seems to have the same weaknesses as 1v1 - except amplified.
Very vulnerable to early game pushes. You can no longer stop 4gates with spine crawlers, because they'll just go after your ally. Running banelings into enemy balls is even more difficult, as you usually don't have creep spread that far and the balls are much large leading to more focus fire on banelings. Swarm tactics don't work as well either if the 2 balls combine, even less surface area for lings to get surrounds.
Zerg is pretty solid midgame with roach upgrades and infestors. Late game is ok.. Ultras are very easy to counter for protoss, but I feel like it's difficult to maintain map control and defend expansions against good warp prism or medivac play. Terran can build PF's and toss can warp in 6 or 7 cannons while having unit warp in. Zerg can build nydus but that can be sniped very quickly. And most of the maps aren't very conducive to flanking (sadface)
Zerg does feel very augmentative. Infestors augment terran and protoss armies well, and also stop most air play while being pretty mobile. Overseers are excellent and speedy detection, and zerg has the easiest time scouting when armies move out and keeping tabs on expansions.
Into the midgame it's too hard to maintain map control against 2 opponents, therefore you cannot expand like you would in a 1v1, and are often stuck on 2base for much longer than zerg would prefer.
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On October 07 2010 03:54 DuneBug wrote:
Zerg's pretty weak in 2v2. I played it for awhile.. Without ing/reaper builds which are incredibly strong... Seems to have the same weaknesses as 1v1 - except amplified.
Very vulnerable to early game pushes. You can no longer stop 4gates with spine crawlers, because they'll just go after your ally. Running banelings into enemy balls is even more difficult, as you usually don't have creep spread that far and the balls are much large leading to more focus fire on banelings. Swarm tactics don't work as well either if the 2 balls combine, even less surface area for lings to get surrounds.
Zerg is pretty solid midgame with roach upgrades and infestors. Late game is ok.. Ultras are very easy to counter for protoss, but I feel like it's difficult to maintain map control and defend expansions against good warp prism or medivac play. Terran can build PF's and toss can warp in 6 or 7 cannons while having unit warp in. Zerg can build nydus but that can be sniped very quickly. And most of the maps aren't very conducive to flanking (sadface)
Zerg does feel very augmentative. Infestors augment terran and protoss armies well, and also stop most air play while being pretty mobile. Overseers are excellent and speedy detection, and zerg has the easiest time scouting when armies move out and keeping tabs on expansions.
Into the midgame it's too hard to maintain map control against 2 opponents, therefore you cannot expand like you would in a 1v1, and are often stuck on 2base for much longer than zerg would prefer.
I don't think the stats hold up with this claim. The top 20 in the world is littered with Zerg teams. I'm a top 30 PT team, but most teams we lose to own a zerg.
Zergling runbys and baneling busts are enough to get you into 1200 diamond in teamplay. At higher levels, solid players don't fall to runbys/baneling busts, but it's conceivable to contain players with the threat of a zergling surround when they leave their base. This gives you a great macro advantage, which can be levered into muta harass, or your partner obtaining a huge overpowering army. That's probably how top teams stay in the top, after their early game rush/cheese doesn't work.
Lategame zerg in 2v2 is pretty weak though, it's harder to expand all over the map and completely outmacro, which in my opinion is still the paradigm for lategame success. But by that time your team should be way ahead.
.... I haven't seen it much, but roaches/stalkers rush is kinda hard to stop.
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as a high 2v2 r ~1000 zerg player...it largely dependson what your teammate is making.
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For quite some time, I have been playing as Z with my trusted ally "gad" as protoss. Unfortunately this is all I have as experience, so my ideas are based on this perspective.
Not that we are of the best bunch, but as much as I could observe:
early pressure is a kind of joke as zerg in 2 v 2. Never 6 pool or anything like that, the best kind of early pressure possible is 10 or 9 pool, and never with less than 12 zergling. In 2 v 2 it is very easy to compansate for worker losses with some support from other player. So;
"Early minor losses are not as devastating or gameflow-changing as in 1v1."
Reason: Opponent ally can close the gap, whether it be some units for defence if your harass caused army kills, some minerals of you killed some scv's etc.
If you and your ally can make a serious harass together, it is better - yet again you will almost never accomplish anything against good opponents. The best thing about starting an early harass / pressure WITH your ally, is that you get to take the initative and have an idea about what is going on. You apply pressure and thus you provoke the reaction. Your opponent will either try to get a bigger size army than your combined pressure force and try to break open, or they will try other, more cutesy tactics like going air, drops, nydus tricks etc. All that time spend on coordination and execution means you have a better chance of getting an expansion, and your enemy has harder.
All you have to do is to watchout for a rapid counter-attack.
As of unit combination: Zergling + Stalker at core, Immortal / Colosi and MUTALISK as secondary wave additions.
Zergling / Stalker is very, very good since what counters Stalkers are Immortals/reapers/zerglings and your good amount of zerglings will help your toss allies stalkers alot.
So as of early game, what generally happens is I get an in-main hatchery, preferably close to entrance, spine up, pump zergling while getting ready for muta-pumping after expand.
Yet still, what goes on is generally shaped by what you see in your enemy. If ramp is open, it is almost always viable to make surgical suicidal strikes to oppoent queens with lings, for example.
After the first pressure / expand prevention and self-expand, you MUST have muta's ready. Role is same as in 1 v 1, but actually if you reach a criticall mass of mutalisks, there is only one thing between you and total domination, which is THOR.
So your ally P pumps out immortals, and it's gg.
I find zerg in 2 v 2 very fun and very strong indeed. Several times I have been able to send help to my ally via nydus canal, and several times I enjoyed the durable protoss units complimenting my crowd and vice versa.
Come to think of it I now really wonder if NP is possible to cast on an ally unit. It might be fun to capture an ally probe and build my own nexus teh heh he. Must try this now.
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Windwalker's wrong. While harassment is good, it's pretty easy for one member of the 2v2 to create a muta-counter. Phoenixes, vikings, etc. That'll stop harassment, allowing you to macro up. The key is that Zerg is really weak in the mid-late game when Medivacs, Storm and Colossi come out.
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Generally, I end up playing 1 of 2 ways. I'll either 1-base with my buddy, which is somewhat effective depending on the team comp. Opening with reapers and speedlings can be really, really strong especially against protoss. Alternatively you can opt for a fast macro style, if your buddy plays defensive. With my protoss buddy I often 15 hatch FE into lots and lots of mutas. We'll then play a pretty macro game while containing and out-expanding the enemy.
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EPT
