- 17 games - 5 ZvPs - 3 ZvZs - 9 ZvTs - all played yesterday, and labeled by matchup and map. only 1 famous player in the pack though, BlueK (that guy who lost to boxer in the oldddddd epic match) - wide range of players. (my rank fell pretty badly due to ~30 disconnects a few days ago, so im sure a few of them are nubs.)
I will be monitoring the thread and answering any questions about my play.
i didnt know who you were a few months ago artosis, but you kick serious ass. whenever i get discouraged with zerging you come along and get me motivated again. gonna watch these when i get home in a few hours.
Thanks!
edit:
to the dudes above that said the file is unavailable 2 page refreshes got me a link to download.
Thanks so much man, Im a protoss player and im getting sick of all the zergs bitching about being underpowered, maybe they'll get some good ideas from a top zerg player and stop complaining
Greatly appreciate the replay pack Artosis. I was able download with no problems. I would also like to thank you for all the help you've given the zerg community. The other post with FPVODs and everything else is greatly helpful to get into a better mindset.
I've watched both ZvTs on Scrap Station and Xel'naga so far, and I'm blown away at how well you spread your creep, presumably due to your Hydra usage and the fact that it's basically a maphack . I'm quite surprised that none of your opponents never really did anything to combat that, except for the odd scan only when it had already reached their base, especially once they realized you were going pretty heavy on Hydras. It should definitely turn into a priority if you see that much creep on the mini-map to clean some of it up IMO.
Artosis, I'm so impressed with your play. This is ZvT like I've never seen it before. I have a few questions though.
- What prompts you to go Infestors before Hydra and vice versa? Is there anything specific you scout that makes you like to go one way or the other?
- Do you feel like this new way to play ZvT is an answer to the imba of Terran? In these replays it really looks like you are having such an easy time against these guys. Is this because they are just not as good as you, and would you feel comfortable with this strat against top-tier players you might play in the GSL?
- And finally, not pertaining to the replays exactly, but do you feel like you're getting enough time to practice with all of the casting you're doing? If you had to make a choice, would you be a caster or a player?
On October 02 2010 08:11 ryanAnger wrote: Artosis, I'm so impressed with your play. This is ZvT like I've never seen it before. I have a few questions though.
- What prompts you to go Infestors before Hydra and vice versa? Is there anything specific you scout that makes you like to go one way or the other?
- Do you feel like this new way to play ZvT is an answer to the imba of Terran? In these replays it really looks like you are having such an easy time against these guys. Is this because they are just not as good as you, and would you feel comfortable with this strat against top-tier players you might play in the GSL?
- And finally, not pertaining to the replays exactly, but do you feel like you're getting enough time to practice with all of the casting you're doing? If you had to make a choice, would you be a caster or a player?
Q1. I think the only time I went infestors first was on the kulas game, where i didn't see an expansion yet, but saw lots of marines. Infestors > marines, marines > hydras, so i made infestors first.
Q2. Too early to tell. I did get knocked down a bit via disconnects, so they aren't all the absolute top. That being said, I really like the strategy atm, and it feels flexible enough that i imagine its usable vs anyone.
Q3. I haven't had enough time recently, but now I'm finally beginning to be able to play a closer amount to what I want to. I cast because I love the game. As long as I love the game, I will be a player.
Hey Artosis! Thanks for the replay pack. As a Zerg player, I find myself having issues against the 4 gate. Right now I'm at around 1200 Diamond on NA. I watched the replays hoping to find a game which you went against a 4 gate, and saw that there was indeed one, which you also appeared to have trouble with. I suppose I should specify that it's not always the 4 gate itself that runs me over, but the Colossus transition afterward. I find myself struggling to have the resources to produce enough corruptors, especially after having lost a lot of my units to holding off the 4 gate(If I'm even successful at that). I was wondering if you could offer some insight into dealing with the situation that I described.
it's about zvp and the steppes of war 2 game especially.. why do you think you've lost that..? is it cause hydra roach is getting owned by good forcefields in general? imo with a more hydra heavy composition you could have held your third but to be fair the guy didn`t make collossi which he could have made.. to me it seems especially on steppes of war if you go hydra roach there is a pretty big windows where a protoss with good force fields and 1-2 collossi can kill you right away... honestly i haven't seen any pro zvp lately where hydra roach is defeating p. .atm it seems to me that only mutas win games which have come to a mid/late game.. don't you think with hydra roach you can only win the game if p makes big mistakes?
btw great reps so far.. pretty impressed from the zvp on delta where you go very fast muta, looking forward to see the tvp's..
Watched 4 or so games so far. One question really came into my mind.
On the 2nd ZvP on Steppes of War, you were using lings early on to bait out the use of sentry forcefields (I think). You ended up killing 1 sentry and a probe, and made him use most of the sentries energy, but lost ~ 10-12 lings. Is that worth it/intended? Or was it a mistake?|
Also, for someone who believes in the neutral unit curse, you do an awful lot of merciless Ursadak Calf slaughtering .
Thanks for the games again, your creep spread is really sick by the way.
i watched 3 games so far. really digging the hydra/infestor. hydras are so slow in sc2 but so deadly, i kinda love em.
have you tried pushing with that force? it seems like if your opponent (terran obv) is barracks heavy some nice fungals would allow you to break defenses. i hate having to wait for ultras. of course tanks are the natural response to hydra which would make pushing tough. i particularly liked the infested terrans into the tank ball which let you push in on xel naga i think.
this is more something ive just been wondering about in general but do you think koreans are as prone to one base all in as americans? a lot of korean replays and vods seem to show much more macro oriented play as opposed to my own experience on US. i have trouble especially with stopping some of these one base plays. can be very frustrating.
I've watched 5-6 of the TvZ's and wow. You and IdrA (thanks for that vod) are generating an absolute ton of vision all of the sudden.
Noob questions: What would you say to the people who say "bad terrans should just make ravens?" Have you experimented with burrow for infestors at all? (they seem to naturally get in the way sometimes) Mobility seems a little lower than with muta ling ultra. Have you incorporated nydus networks (not offensive worms) into this style?
On October 02 2010 08:23 Servatose wrote: Hey Artosis! Thanks for the replay pack. As a Zerg player, I find myself having issues against the 4 gate. Right now I'm at around 1200 Diamond on NA. I watched the replays hoping to find a game which you went against a 4 gate, and saw that there was indeed one, which you also appeared to have trouble with. I suppose I should specify that it's not always the 4 gate itself that runs me over, but the Colossus transition afterward. I find myself struggling to have the resources to produce enough corruptors, especially after having lost a lot of my units to holding off the 4 gate(If I'm even successful at that). I was wondering if you could offer some insight into dealing with the situation that I described.
Yeah, Colossus timings are ridiculously hard to stop. Hardest thing in the game atm for zerg. There's a problem in how hard it is to do vs how hard it is to stop. I don't have great advice for you right now on the subject. Hydras stop 4warp gate easily, but then you will have a hard time with the Colossus timing. I'll get back to ya.
On October 02 2010 08:57 bananafever wrote: hey artosis,
it's about zvp and the steppes of war 2 game especially.. why do you think you've lost that..? is it cause hydra roach is getting owned by good forcefields in general? imo with a more hydra heavy composition you could have held your third but to be fair the guy didn`t make collossi which he could have made.. to me it seems especially on steppes of war if you go hydra roach there is a pretty big windows where a protoss with good force fields and 1-2 collossi can kill you right away... honestly i haven't seen any pro zvp lately where hydra roach is defeating p. .atm it seems to me that only mutas win games which have come to a mid/late game.. don't you think with hydra roach you can only win the game if p makes big mistakes?
btw great reps so far.. pretty impressed from the zvp on delta where you go very fast muta, looking forward to see the tvp's..
Yeah, Roach/Hydra gets kinda slammed by FFs... I think if I continue going Roach/Hydra, I may start mixing in drops with it. Steppes is especially bad vs Colossus timings, eh..
On October 02 2010 09:03 nuMi22 wrote: Watched 4 or so games so far. One question really came into my mind.
On the 2nd ZvP on Steppes of War, you were using lings early on to bait out the use of sentry forcefields (I think). You ended up killing 1 sentry and a probe, and made him use most of the sentries energy, but lost ~ 10-12 lings. Is that worth it/intended? Or was it a mistake?|
Also, for someone who believes in the neutral unit curse, you do an awful lot of merciless Ursadak Calf slaughtering .
Thanks for the games again, your creep spread is really sick by the way.
I always try to bait as many FF's as possible. I also love to hit probes, especially when P is moving out to expand or make a pylon for warpgates. That game I lost more lings than I wanted to though.
On October 02 2010 09:41 Vaporized wrote: i watched 3 games so far. really digging the hydra/infestor. hydras are so slow in sc2 but so deadly, i kinda love em.
have you tried pushing with that force? it seems like if your opponent (terran obv) is barracks heavy some nice fungals would allow you to break defenses. i hate having to wait for ultras. of course tanks are the natural response to hydra which would make pushing tough. i particularly liked the infested terrans into the tank ball which let you push in on xel naga i think.
this is more something ive just been wondering about in general but do you think koreans are as prone to one base all in as americans? a lot of korean replays and vods seem to show much more macro oriented play as opposed to my own experience on US. i have trouble especially with stopping some of these one base plays. can be very frustrating.
gonna watch some more later. keep em comin.
Q1. I, and every other top Zerg, don't like attacking into a Terran. Its all about killing the Terran army. Attacking into a race with those defensive capabilities + siege tanks is not a great idea.
Q2. No, of course not. US players 1 base allin far more than Korean players.
On October 02 2010 10:16 BadWithNames wrote: Dear Artosis,
I've watched 5-6 of the TvZ's and wow. You and IdrA (thanks for that vod) are generating an absolute ton of vision all of the sudden.
Noob questions: What would you say to the people who say "bad terrans should just make ravens?" Have you experimented with burrow for infestors at all? (they seem to naturally get in the way sometimes) Mobility seems a little lower than with muta ling ultra. Have you incorporated nydus networks (not offensive worms) into this style?
Q1. I think Ravens should become a staple of TvZ eventually. Just making them won't solve what I'm doing here though. Once I have hydra/infestor out, if you have a small unit comp out with your raven trying to kill creep tumors, you will lose it. Therefore, you can only truly erase creep in areas you have sectioned off already, or as you push.
Q2. Not really. I'm working on directing them into battle slightly differently, so they are in casting range, yet not getting targeted. Pretty ridiculous btw that they are that high priority omg t.t
Q3. I don't see a reason to use nydus worms with this. One of the best things about it is that it scouts teh map for me, so i can stay on top of things. I can put 1 infestor and 2-3 hydras at common drop spots, and they can't be harassed anymore.
On October 02 2010 10:23 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Thanks artosis
With competitive bingo, scrabble and date night at the retirement home how do you find time to play SC2?
thanks
PS: your zerg looks awesome! I heard you watched really good ZvT in the WCG 2007 US Finals tourney and got inspiration from there.
K BAI
I actually made a 67 point scrabble word recently. was totally awesome. i felt so genius. but ur right, its hard to find time to really play.
sadly, terran is actually good in this game, so i cant run lurkers up ramps t.t. but i do love to randomly get more ultras than t will think i should have.
I noticed in your ZvP on Steps of War you got to 200/200, then sacrificed your zerglings to make room for ultras. Did you intend to have them killed off? I really expected you to push to front once you split his forces up.
I only ask because shortly after that the real main battle starts and you're a touch tapped for cash (maybe i missed something) and your supply rapidly drops. What exactly were you trying to accomplish with that drop?
I noticed in your ZvP on Steps of War you got to 200/200, then sacrificed your zerglings to make room for ultras. Did you intend to have them killed off? I really expected you to push to front once you split his forces up.
I only ask because shortly after that the real main battle starts and you're a touch tapped for cash (maybe i missed something) and your supply rapidly drops. What exactly were you trying to accomplish with that drop?
it was a stall/make room for supply move as you thought.
Artosis, i've only skimmed a few of your zvt's so far, and the trend has been to get hydras over mutas. i personally don't like mutas, i find they are easily countered in the early stages, and leave you open to a fast counter attack before you can build a good number of them. despite the hydra being "terrible" against terran, i like to go for a hydra build over mutas, and i don't fare too bad (lower level player). which do you think is a stronger unit to aim for?
On October 02 2010 11:44 eLiE wrote: Artosis, i've only skimmed a few of your zvt's so far, and the trend has been to get hydras over mutas. i personally don't like mutas, i find they are easily countered in the early stages, and leave you open to a fast counter attack before you can build a good number of them. despite the hydra being "terrible" against terran, i like to go for a hydra build over mutas, and i don't fare too bad (lower level player). which do you think is a stronger unit to aim for?
the muta is a better unit, but infestors are better than banelings, and can be made easily with hydras.
All I have to say is thank you so much for this replay pack. I watch a lot of replays and none of them have been nearly as impressive as this replay pack. I have been bouncing between Z and T since beta and would rather play Z but fear that it may get too stale for me. However, as I've gotten higher and higher in Diamond, I realize that I'm not going to end the game in under 10 minutes vs good opponents despite all my hellions or cloaked banshees as T. This has shown me that even as T, past early game, you can get pigeon holed into a build.
Your replays were fantastic. I had to rewind several times because you were just doing too much and I couldn't believe what was happpening. Really. Thanks so much. This is the first replay pack where I was truly impressed by the player. I learned plenty.
On to some questions:
1)You opened some of the games with roaches before scouting anything. Are you just trying to mix it up or do you have a larger build order that you're working on? Does it depend on the map?
2)You got burrowed roaches in a few of the games but the opportunity to use them effectively was never available. Did you just have excess money to dump in upgrades? Were you trying to force detection?
3) I was saddened to see that you lost a game to a 4-gate on kulas. 4-gate is probably the build that is most frustrating to face for me in a ZvP. I strongly feel that it takes quite a bit more skill to defeat it than it does to execute it. Though once you counter it, you're usually golden. What is your strategy against a 4 gate?
4) Some games you send that ovie in around 20 food and most games you don't. What's the reasoning behind it?
5) Always ultras and never broodlords. Why?
6) Two of your games were against mass blink stalkers. What the hell is the answer to that? In the first game, mass forcefields allowed the stalkers to take out your third and beat you shortly after but in the second game you pulled out a clutch victory when I thought you no longer had hope. The maps that blink stalkers were used on were so tight I can't imagine what you'd have to do to beat it.
Thanks so much for this. I love how you hid the double Spire underneath your ovie cloud in the ZvP on Desert Oasis. I've been having trouble vs. Stargate Colossus, but your build seems perfect.
Watching some of the other reps at the moment and they're fantastic.
Yeah, Colossus timings are ridiculously hard to stop. Hardest thing in the game atm for zerg. There's a problem in how hard it is to do vs how hard it is to stop. I don't have great advice for you right now on the subject. Hydras stop 4warp gate easily, but then you will have a hard time with the Colossus timing. I'll get back to ya.
Appreciate it. Gogo Fruit Dealer! I'll be watching live(luckily for you guys I won't actually be there), doned in my Hawaiian pineapple necklace, and banana loin cloth.
I've watched your ZvZs and I really like your Roach/Hydra/Infestor style of play.
In the opening exchanges of your Scrap Station game your opt for early Baneling compared to the Delta Quadrant game where you went for early Roaches. Does this choice depend solely on the map and whether the choke can be easily blocked?
Also, you opt to get Roach speed and Hydra range upgrades reasonably late (not as soon as they become available) is there a particular reason for this and when is a good time to start researching those upgrades?
On October 02 2010 12:14 Vexx wrote: All I have to say is thank you so much for this replay pack. I watch a lot of replays and none of them have been nearly as impressive as this replay pack. I have been bouncing between Z and T since beta and would rather play Z but fear that it may get too stale for me. However, as I've gotten higher and higher in Diamond, I realize that I'm not going to end the game in under 10 minutes vs good opponents despite all my hellions or cloaked banshees as T. This has shown me that even as T, past early game, you can get pigeon holed into a build.
Your replays were fantastic. I had to rewind several times because you were just doing too much and I couldn't believe what was happpening. Really. Thanks so much. This is the first replay pack where I was truly impressed by the player. I learned plenty.
On to some questions:
1)You opened some of the games with roaches before scouting anything. Are you just trying to mix it up or do you have a larger build order that you're working on? Does it depend on the map?
2)You got burrowed roaches in a few of the games but the opportunity to use them effectively was never available. Did you just have excess money to dump in upgrades? Were you trying to force detection?
3) I was saddened to see that you lost a game to a 4-gate on kulas. 4-gate is probably the build that is most frustrating to face for me in a ZvP. I strongly feel that it takes quite a bit more skill to defeat it than it does to execute it. Though once you counter it, you're usually golden. What is your strategy against a 4 gate?
4) Some games you send that ovie in around 20 food and most games you don't. What's the reasoning behind it?
5) Always ultras and never broodlords. Why?
6) Two of your games were against mass blink stalkers. What the hell is the answer to that? In the first game, mass forcefields allowed the stalkers to take out your third and beat you shortly after but in the second game you pulled out a clutch victory when I thought you no longer had hope. The maps that blink stalkers were used on were so tight I can't imagine what you'd have to do to beat it.
That's it for now. Thanks again. Really.
Q1. Well it matters the matchup. I like roaches zvz on delta quadrant. sometimes i open roaches randomly on Kulas Ravine, just because you have to be unpredictable there. I also am toying around with Korean style ZvP which is atm heavily roach based. Just kinda mixing it up, seeing how it goes.
Q2. I wanted to use them, but it just didn't work out. I kind of made those upgrades in the wrong place, burrow movement is only useful after certain early games.
Q3. My normal strategy is speedling into hydralisk, which can own it pretty well (except on Kulas). the problem with this is the followup colossus timing push becomes very hard to stop due to the pwnage against hydras.
Q4. I pick up little things that tell me what's going on. If i'm uncertain, the ovie lays down his life to let me know as much as he can.
Q5. I really like broodlords, but the styles im practicing right now fit in better with Ultras.
Q6. Yeah, it can be rough... against only blink stalkers you can use hydra/ling, but if they randomly tech into colossus you are in trouble. i'm not completely sure of the best counter right now, but i have some ideas, and since im finally able to practice again, ill post anotehr pack when i figure it out
On October 02 2010 12:27 Urth wrote: Do you always go hydra infestor vs T? Are there any T builds that you wouldn't use hydra/infestor against?
i'm on a hydra infestor binge atm. i'm unsure at the moment what builds i will and will not use this against. i'll just play it vs everything for now, and find out all the branches of what can be done.
I've watched your ZvZs and I really like your Roach/Hydra/Infestor style of play.
In the opening exchanges of your Scrap Station game your opt for early Baneling compared to the Delta Quadrant game where you went for early Roaches. Does this choice depend solely on the map and whether the choke can be easily blocked?
Also, you opt to get Roach speed and Hydra range upgrades reasonably late (not as soon as they become available) is there a particular reason for this and when is a good time to start researching those upgrades?
Thank you again!!~~
Q1. Yeah, its completely based upon the map. you need a small choke to go for roach/hydra/infestor early.
Q2. There's no need to get either upgrade until its time to move out. Hydra range is more important than roach speed, but really I don't want to spend money on either until I'm ready to go. Try to have them finish right as you move out.
The more I see of you, your casting, and your posts, the more respect I gain for you. You're a true asset to the SC community, and a God-send for us scrubs trying to learn to play the game.
I can't believe your creep spread, in some of these games it's down right dirty. It's honestly the best creeping spreading I've seen from any Zerg in the world. Did you make a concerted effort to become the most boss creep manager on the earth? This really inspires me to focus much, much more on creep spreading.
I think it was ZvP Steppes 1, the P had you pinned (which was kinda bullshit considering it was like 5 base vs 3) and because of your mighty creep spread he wasn't able to get a forward pylon anywhere even remotely close enough to reinforce quickly and you overwhelmed him with your insane economy pumping ultra/ling, it was beautiful.
How refined (in terms of specific orders) are your ZvT builds here, and how confident are you in them? Once you've started scouting and get to the early-mid game, are you still following a specific build or are you most reacting and using game sense?
At the moment I feel like ZvT most of my builds go out the window by 20 supply as I get forced to react to whatever the terran is doing.
I just watched 2 of your ZvT games from this pack, and in both of them you went for hydras. I usually never ever go hydras in ZvT. Any specific reason you went for them? tank nerf? or the fact that you saw the T going bio. Would you still find good use for hydras vs mech play?
Artosis, thank you for the effort you've been putting into the community, it is much appreciated.
One specific question I have is this:
is terran bio play more standard on the KOR server? I watched 5 or 6 of the replays, and In all of them, the terran went with MMM as the core of his army. This is disappointing to me because I'm having much more trouble with mech-play, specifically the mass thor/hellion 2 base timing push before I can get hive tech, seems like whatever I throw at it just melts. Are you going to put up any replays of you going against mech?
I have watched all three of your ZvP's on Steppes of War so far, but I'm afraid I can't continue watching your replays until I get some clarification.
In all three games, you have viciously and brutally slaughtered the Panda Bear Guy. Why are you killing him? Why? Is it out of hatred for the Panda Bear Guy race? Do you want his children to starve? You want them to grow up, fueled by hatred towards the Zerg race for what you have done to their father? Who's gonna bring home the grass to the younglings now?! This brings back horrible memories from the slaughter on Andromeda. We do not want history to repeat itself!
You need like at least 3 more stars. Every thread you make is amazing I am a huge fan of your work as a reporter/caster and I love that you are a competitive player as well :D
I watched one game but no more time right now because it's time to watch you live in HQ !! =)
I started watching the zvt in order the first game was against BlueK. At the point when you had the gold soon to be mined out you had a hatchery with no workers for a while at the expand to the right of the gold.
Were you aware of this in the game? Looks like you maxed out in units and had no room for additional drones almost..
And why did you win? Were did he drop the ball? Trying to learn what to do in those situations I really hate ultras lol.
I am currently watching you cast for the GSL final. I am dreaming about you nightly and sometimes feel that my day is not complete without listening to your voice.
Q1: Will you have my babies Q2 (the serious question I have): Do you have anyone Air Force guys come to any of the events? I am trying to get stationed in Korea so that I can go to all of the finals and watch SC live in Korea. Just wondering if this is something alot of AF members know about, or if I will be going there alone ><
Thaniks for the replay pack and of course all of the great content you always release!
I am currently watching you cast for the GSL final. I am dreaming about you nightly and sometimes feel that my day is not complete without listening to your voice.
Q1: Will you have my babies Q2 (the serious question I have): Do you have anyone Air Force guys come to any of the events? I am trying to get stationed in Korea so that I can go to all of the finals and watch SC live in Korea. Just wondering if this is something alot of AF members know about, or if I will be going there alone ><
Thaniks for the replay pack and of course all of the great content you always release!
Haha, I'm also in the AF, and I'm going to try to get stationed there, but for the purposes of also playing SC competitively, off-duty.
On October 02 2010 14:25 crms wrote: I can't believe your creep spread, in some of these games it's down right dirty. It's honestly the best creeping spreading I've seen from any Zerg in the world. Did you make a concerted effort to become the most boss creep manager on the earth? This really inspires me to focus much, much more on creep spreading.
I think it was ZvP Steppes 1, the P had you pinned (which was kinda bullshit considering it was like 5 base vs 3) and because of your mighty creep spread he wasn't able to get a forward pylon anywhere even remotely close enough to reinforce quickly and you overwhelmed him with your insane economy pumping ultra/ling, it was beautiful.
Yeah, I'm trying to work on my creep spreading atm. Its maybe the most important thing for Zerg after you learn the basics.
On October 02 2010 14:31 Tsagacity wrote: How refined (in terms of specific orders) are your ZvT builds here, and how confident are you in them? Once you've started scouting and get to the early-mid game, are you still following a specific build or are you most reacting and using game sense?
At the moment I feel like ZvT most of my builds go out the window by 20 supply as I get forced to react to whatever the terran is doing.
I follow general strategies rather than builds. Maybe up around 20-25 supply, i start free-styling the builds i use, just following a general idea/strategy. Zerg is super reactive in this game.
On October 02 2010 14:47 Zhoul wrote: Yo Artosis! Love your commentating for gomtv.
I just watched 2 of your ZvT games from this pack, and in both of them you went for hydras. I usually never ever go hydras in ZvT. Any specific reason you went for them? tank nerf? or the fact that you saw the T going bio. Would you still find good use for hydras vs mech play?
Thx for the pack
IdrA told me about this style, so I started doing it and modified it slightly into something I really like. The tank nerf definitely has something to do with it, but I think its more the understanding of creep spreading that has opened this up. I haven't played vs a dedicated mech build yet with it, but I imagine I would mix in more drops and roaches with the hydras.
On October 02 2010 16:30 AnAngryDingo wrote: Artosis, thank you for the effort you've been putting into the community, it is much appreciated.
One specific question I have is this:
is terran bio play more standard on the KOR server? I watched 5 or 6 of the replays, and In all of them, the terran went with MMM as the core of his army. This is disappointing to me because I'm having much more trouble with mech-play, specifically the mass thor/hellion 2 base timing push before I can get hive tech, seems like whatever I throw at it just melts. Are you going to put up any replays of you going against mech?
I haven't hit much mech at all recently. bio mech is/has been much more popular on the korean server. I think there is a replay in there of me hitting a hellion/thor timing push which i didn't scout because of early harassment via vikings. I ended up fungaling his army and attacking it with hydras several times. Hydras outrange hellions by 1, so if you control right, you might be able to fight it off with this strategy. normally i would suggest pure roach vs it though, if you know its coming.
I have watched all three of your ZvP's on Steppes of War so far, but I'm afraid I can't continue watching your replays until I get some clarification.
In all three games, you have viciously and brutally slaughtered the Panda Bear Guy. Why are you killing him? Why? Is it out of hatred for the Panda Bear Guy race? Do you want his children to starve? You want them to grow up, fueled by hatred towards the Zerg race for what you have done to their father? Who's gonna bring home the grass to the younglings now?! This brings back horrible memories from the slaughter on Andromeda. We do not want history to repeat itself!
I demand clarification!
lol...it catches my eye on the minimap all the time, so i always kill it, along with any other critters in sc2.
On October 02 2010 18:09 Patriot.dlk wrote: You need like at least 3 more stars. Every thread you make is amazing I am a huge fan of your work as a reporter/caster and I love that you are a competitive player as well :D
I watched one game but no more time right now because it's time to watch you live in HQ !! =)
I started watching the zvt in order the first game was against BlueK. At the point when you had the gold soon to be mined out you had a hatchery with no workers for a while at the expand to the right of the gold.
Were you aware of this in the game? Looks like you maxed out in units and had no room for additional drones almost..
And why did you win? Were did he drop the ball? Trying to learn what to do in those situations I really hate ultras lol.
Well, I was a bit distracted. That was teh first time I've tried that strategy, and BlueK is actually quite good. I'm not 100% sure what he did wrong, as I did a lot wrong as well. Infestors are so good in a long game, I think I just whittled him down. Almost lost that one. Also, dropping on the tanks cost him far too much.
Heh, I haven't gotten Sc2 yet (retard computer) and I don't follow the game much, but I still feel the urge to thank you for this. You're awesome. ^__^
I am currently watching you cast for the GSL final. I am dreaming about you nightly and sometimes feel that my day is not complete without listening to your voice.
Q1: Will you have my babies Q2 (the serious question I have): Do you have anyone Air Force guys come to any of the events? I am trying to get stationed in Korea so that I can go to all of the finals and watch SC live in Korea. Just wondering if this is something alot of AF members know about, or if I will be going there alone ><
Thaniks for the replay pack and of course all of the great content you always release!
Q1. sry im not ready for such a commitment, thx tho thats sweet of u. Q2. AF guys normally don't come, no. The AF base is south of seoul by a bit, kind of annoying to travel up here i guess. but there are always some non korean guys, and definitely army people show up sometimes.
q1. Do you ever have trouble with terran bioballs anymore with this creep spread hydra infestor ultra path? q2. Have people gone ghosts vs your infestors yet? Does it make much of a difference?
On October 03 2010 16:12 antz0r wrote: That was beautiful play thankyou so much.
q1. Do you ever have trouble with terran bioballs anymore with this creep spread hydra infestor ultra path? q2. Have people gone ghosts vs your infestors yet? Does it make much of a difference?
Q1. if its just bio, no. if its bio mech, yeah.
Q2. yeah i've had a few people do that so far. i dunno didn't make a huge difference in my eyes but they weren't used that well i guess.
I can't believe I didn't know that creep tumors can spawn an extra one. That alone will push me into platinum at the rate my games are going now.
In the second game where you got cannoned in, you sent your scouting overlords off with spawn creep on, is this to prevent the protoss from putting an expansion down until he's shooed the overlord away? If this is correct would you just use lings against a zerg player instead or just turn off the ability?
On October 03 2010 16:30 Ziggitz wrote: I can't believe I didn't know that creep tumors can spawn an extra one. That alone will push me into platinum at the rate my games are going now.
In the second game where you got cannoned in, you sent your scouting overlords off with spawn creep on, is this to prevent the protoss from putting an expansion down until he's shooed the overlord away? If this is correct would you just use lings against a zerg player instead or just turn off the ability?
yes its to stop him from making stuff. i dont understand the second question.
Thanks alot for doing this Artosis, a 2nd replay pack is a good idea. my question is for ZvP. I find that Protoss gives me more trouble than Terran. Im never really completely sure of what to do. Here are some scenarios. Q1- if the Protoss player goes for a 4gate that is really zelot/sentry heavy will you get roaches? or stick with a ling/hydra? Q2- I always loose when the protoss player stalls his 4gate push until he has 2-3 collosus then grabs an expansion and pushes out. i dont think lings/Hydras alone can stop this. Should i just scout better and get a spire for corruptors or fast tech to ultras? Q3- I guess overall im just unsure of the best way to deal with collosus timing pushes, do you have anything that you think works well? and lastlly do you prefer Hydra play over Mutas? I almost feel if i went Muta/ ling It would be easier to deal with the collosus
On October 03 2010 18:56 Eazypeezy wrote: Thanks alot for doing this Artosis, a 2nd replay pack is a good idea. my question is for ZvP. I find that Protoss gives me more trouble than Terran. Im never really completely sure of what to do. Here are some scenarios. Q1- if the Protoss player goes for a 4gate that is really zelot/sentry heavy will you get roaches? or stick with a ling/hydra? Q2- I always loose when the protoss player stalls his 4gate push until he has 2-3 collosus then grabs an expansion and pushes out. i dont think lings/Hydras alone can stop this. Should i just scout better and get a spire for corruptors or fast tech to ultras? Q3- I guess overall im just unsure of the best way to deal with collosus timing pushes, do you have anything that you think works well? and lastlly do you prefer Hydra play over Mutas? I almost feel if i went Muta/ ling It would be easier to deal with the collosus
Q1. That's a really good question. Both can work. Roach should be a better choice in this case, but make sure you have some spine crawlers as well.
Q2. Normally you won't get the Ultras in time. Corrupters can definitely help in holding the first push. Hydra/ling will get pwned, if you want to make ground units, make sure u have some roaches.
Q3. Colossus timings are the hardest thing for zerg at the moment. Nothing works too well. Mutas can pwn it, but just a standard timing attack off 2 base pure warpgate is VERY hard to hold with mutas.
Wow I didn't know you were this good. It's nice to get some replays of the "new Zerg" style of play that I can study myself. I thought I'd have to wait until Cool's replays from GSL were available.
Also, it seems like Overlord drops are just.. straight up counter to tank/mech based armies because of lack of mobility. Do you think this will be the new norm? A counter not by units but by a tactic.
edit: I mean sneaky Overlord drops into the enemy's base
On October 03 2010 14:40 GTR wrote: eta on next pack? d;
dunno, if ppl want one, ill release another after playing enough good games.
yep, we want, i tried the build out against top terrans from my country and worked really well, even against pure mech. I'd like to see a lot more of it, i couldnt help but notice many of your opponents were kind of newbie, so i'd like to see that inf-hdyra build put into pratice against more gamers.
I am currently watching you cast for the GSL final. I am dreaming about you nightly and sometimes feel that my day is not complete without listening to your voice.
Q1: Will you have my babies Q2 (the serious question I have): Do you have anyone Air Force guys come to any of the events? I am trying to get stationed in Korea so that I can go to all of the finals and watch SC live in Korea. Just wondering if this is something alot of AF members know about, or if I will be going there alone ><
Thaniks for the replay pack and of course all of the great content you always release!
Haha, I'm also in the AF, and I'm going to try to get stationed there, but for the purposes of also playing SC competitively, off-duty.
Where are you stationed currently?
Im at Mountain Home Idaho right now. Need about another year here and then hopefully to Korea! I can't wait!!!
hey artosis i skimmed through the whole thread i didn't see any questions about ZVZ, I am around 1000pt diamond and i feel it is the one match up that has been holding me back a little lately, plus i am not really sure what strat to use. I watched your 3 zvz games and the one that interested me the most was the zvz on delta quad. I usually open with ling bling and transition into muta but i have been interested in trying the roach hold position opening. I really liked in that game how you went hydra infestor, the fungal growth totally raped the other zerg it is a real beat down once u got that going well played. I guess my questions are
1. Give me your opinion on that build the roach ramp hold into hydra/roach infestor would that work well on other maps or just delta quad cause u can take the back expansion and hold the ramp cause i would imagine if you took a regular natural u could have been over run with lings and it seemed like u really need an exp to make that build work?
2. what zvz builds do you feel work best right now? That is if u can't use that hydra/roach infestor play on other maps? is opening pure roaches worthless? i have seen it destroyed by just mass ling but i seem to fail every time i try to mass ling a pack of roaches early on.
to someone who has a very dense rts background and never played BW who has made it to around 1300 Diamond with P, what advice would you give to them for little things ingame if they want to start playing zerg? cuz im awful at it and i get so confused with the hole queen mechanicsblablashit!
None of your games (I think) show a zvp game where the protoss opens open w/ 2 gate zealot pressure, and transitions into 3 gate w/ a robo. I am having a real hard time defending this push, regardless if i FE or not. This is like the most common build im running into at a 1200 diamond league, and wanted to see if you had a counter for the stalker/colossus/sentry push. I noticed alot of games you get fairly quick mutas to control the map, and i typically transition into hydras as quick as a I can. Do you think that your mutas are making so the opponent does not want to get those colossus? And in general, what is your favorite counter to this protoss build? From my experience i think ling/hydra/infestor seems to work the most efficient, but I am still losing nearly all my games to a protoss that does this build.
Definitely liking this mass creep spread and getting more queens than bases. And man, Fungal doing some serious work when it comes to stalling pushes, burning medivacs energy down etc.<3 Those Infestors.
Hey, thanks a bunch Artosis! I'll watch these later tonight. xD
Hoping for some insights into ZvP, which is swear is a much harder match-up than ZvT anymore. That might be in part because I'm ot seeing much Thor/Hellion play lately tho.... (-_-')
Artosis. Im curious to here your opinion on cools style of ZvT. Maybe im analyzing wrong, but it seemed that he would get lingspeed and then go to mutas. However, he only got a handfull of mutas to keep up pressure/harass when possible/stop drops and then foucused on a roach/bling/infestor/ling to stall until ultras.
Q1- what are your thoughts of that strategy ? Q2- I notice in some of your replays vs T you got out Hydras. Did you prefer that over cools style, or were your replays made before the final game where he displayed that strategy. Q3- What are your thoughts on Cools double expand timing Where he gets the 2 expos + alot of upgrades ( its strengths and weakness)
I am currently watching you cast for the GSL final. I am dreaming about you nightly and sometimes feel that my day is not complete without listening to your voice.
Q1: Will you have my babies Q2 (the serious question I have): Do you have anyone Air Force guys come to any of the events? I am trying to get stationed in Korea so that I can go to all of the finals and watch SC live in Korea. Just wondering if this is something alot of AF members know about, or if I will be going there alone ><
Thaniks for the replay pack and of course all of the great content you always release!
Haha, I'm also in the AF, and I'm going to try to get stationed there, but for the purposes of also playing SC competitively, off-duty.
Where are you stationed currently?
Im at Mountain Home Idaho right now. Need about another year here and then hopefully to Korea! I can't wait!!!
Nice, I'm at Ellsworth, are there a lot of people in your shop who play? We had a bunch of bandwagon people here, that jumped the SC2 ship as soon as Halo Reach came out, so now I have no one to play with from work lol.
Also, Artosis, do you follow a specific build order in your ZvT's or do you just kinda go with it?
On October 03 2010 22:01 SovSov wrote: Wow I didn't know you were this good. It's nice to get some replays of the "new Zerg" style of play that I can study myself. I thought I'd have to wait until Cool's replays from GSL were available.
Also, it seems like Overlord drops are just.. straight up counter to tank/mech based armies because of lack of mobility. Do you think this will be the new norm? A counter not by units but by a tactic.
edit: I mean sneaky Overlord drops into the enemy's base
I think for a while it will be the new "norm", until terrans figure out that they aren't allowed to move out until a certain time without dying, like SC1.
On October 04 2010 01:07 HatchetWound wrote: hey artosis i skimmed through the whole thread i didn't see any questions about ZVZ, I am around 1000pt diamond and i feel it is the one match up that has been holding me back a little lately, plus i am not really sure what strat to use. I watched your 3 zvz games and the one that interested me the most was the zvz on delta quad. I usually open with ling bling and transition into muta but i have been interested in trying the roach hold position opening. I really liked in that game how you went hydra infestor, the fungal growth totally raped the other zerg it is a real beat down once u got that going well played. I guess my questions are
1. Give me your opinion on that build the roach ramp hold into hydra/roach infestor would that work well on other maps or just delta quad cause u can take the back expansion and hold the ramp cause i would imagine if you took a regular natural u could have been over run with lings and it seemed like u really need an exp to make that build work?
2. what zvz builds do you feel work best right now? That is if u can't use that hydra/roach infestor play on other maps? is opening pure roaches worthless? i have seen it destroyed by just mass ling but i seem to fail every time i try to mass ling a pack of roaches early on.
Thanks and will you be at MLG DC?
Q1. Yeah, its specifically a Delta Quadrant build. I'm working on some Roach builds for other maps, but right now, ling/bane is my best build by far on every other map.
Q2. ling/bane is the best opening, no doubt. Obviously 14 hatch is better if someone goes 13 pool or later, but thats a gamble. Opening roaches kinda sucks, the bane/ling opener can simply see it, get map presence, and counter you strongly.
Q3. no, too busy with GSL right now to make it, sadly.
On October 04 2010 01:26 dahornnn wrote: to someone who has a very dense rts background and never played BW who has made it to around 1300 Diamond with P, what advice would you give to them for little things ingame if they want to start playing zerg? cuz im awful at it and i get so confused with the hole queen mechanicsblablashit!
playing Zerg is almost a test of how good your basics of economy based RTS games are. SC1 is really the only game that would prepare you properly for that. so i suggest you work on learning the basics, such as "oh he's done this, it means he should have less units, and its time to expand!". "oh, he hasn't expanded yet, i better start making units instead of greedy drones." etc.
On October 04 2010 05:33 FunkyFresh wrote: None of your games (I think) show a zvp game where the protoss opens open w/ 2 gate zealot pressure, and transitions into 3 gate w/ a robo. I am having a real hard time defending this push, regardless if i FE or not. This is like the most common build im running into at a 1200 diamond league, and wanted to see if you had a counter for the stalker/colossus/sentry push. I noticed alot of games you get fairly quick mutas to control the map, and i typically transition into hydras as quick as a I can. Do you think that your mutas are making so the opponent does not want to get those colossus? And in general, what is your favorite counter to this protoss build? From my experience i think ling/hydra/infestor seems to work the most efficient, but I am still losing nearly all my games to a protoss that does this build.
as long as u open 14 pool or 15 pool, you should be totally fine vs any 2 gate pressure. just float a lord over his gates, and make enough lings to hold him off. ling/hydra is completely weak to colossus, so i suggest you stop doing that. mutas can be great, but vs a purely warp gate timing attack, its insanely hard to hold.
On October 04 2010 07:20 Eazypeezy wrote: Artosis. Im curious to here your opinion on cools style of ZvT. Maybe im analyzing wrong, but it seemed that he would get lingspeed and then go to mutas. However, he only got a handfull of mutas to keep up pressure/harass when possible/stop drops and then foucused on a roach/bling/infestor/ling to stall until ultras.
Q1- what are your thoughts of that strategy ? Q2- I notice in some of your replays vs T you got out Hydras. Did you prefer that over cools style, or were your replays made before the final game where he displayed that strategy. Q3- What are your thoughts on Cools double expand timing Where he gets the 2 expos + alot of upgrades ( its strengths and weakness)
Q1. He's insanely greedy while flying around with his mutas. Every game he would double expand and get every upgrade in the game at once. A strong 2 base timing attack would have probably killed him every game he did this. Its really hard to transition out of mutalisks vs an aggressive player.
Q2. I normally have used mutas vs terran, but am trying out this new strategy.
I am currently watching you cast for the GSL final. I am dreaming about you nightly and sometimes feel that my day is not complete without listening to your voice.
Q1: Will you have my babies Q2 (the serious question I have): Do you have anyone Air Force guys come to any of the events? I am trying to get stationed in Korea so that I can go to all of the finals and watch SC live in Korea. Just wondering if this is something alot of AF members know about, or if I will be going there alone ><
Thaniks for the replay pack and of course all of the great content you always release!
Haha, I'm also in the AF, and I'm going to try to get stationed there, but for the purposes of also playing SC competitively, off-duty.
Where are you stationed currently?
Im at Mountain Home Idaho right now. Need about another year here and then hopefully to Korea! I can't wait!!!
Nice, I'm at Ellsworth, are there a lot of people in your shop who play? We had a bunch of bandwagon people here, that jumped the SC2 ship as soon as Halo Reach came out, so now I have no one to play with from work lol.
Also, Artosis, do you follow a specific build order in your ZvT's or do you just kinda go with it?
Thanks for the reppack Artosis! =] Got to try your ZvP style a bit in a tourney today and I actually did really well with it and got a lot further than I expected with it without trying it beforehand haha =] Thanks again Artosis =]
I wish sooo much that I could watch these replays right now, but I can't so I have to ask you man.
1:What is your spire timing when you go 2base hydra against toss and the toss goes col's. I know you said just don't open den because of col's, but how can you be so confident he won't open air? I can sack an OL at 30 to see what he's doing sure, but at two base what's your ol sack timing and how do you know where his tech is building?
2: Also against a 2 base terran macro push using hellion/thor/tanks/splash of marine what is your transition before ultras? You said in an earlier post mass roach, but how can you scout this?
P.S. Awesome coverage and your reference to fruit dealer pealing that one player I won't mention, like an orange in that one game, that I also won't mention, was the best fruit reference for the zerg messiah that I heard the entire gsl (sorry tasteless).
Really thanks Artosis! I'm getting bored playing all this P mirrors nowadays so I'm thinking about switching to Zerg, this pack can be a very good point where to start!
hey artosis i wanted to thank you so much for responding to my questions. While reading over your responces i came up with a couple more questions. I might have noticed this while watching your fpvods. Which i found after this rep pack thread and i think you released that before this rep pack so any ways my question was...
1.In ZvZ i noticed from your fp vods that you would open ling speed and baneling and if you scouted your opponent going roaches you would either cancel your baneling building and go roaches. My question to you is if when u discover your opponent is going roaches what is the best way to beat it? I have seen roaches owned by mass ling out in the open but in certain spots I have seen the roaches come out on top. or should u grab an expansion and go roaches your self?
2. Also one last quick question? what is better mass roach or roach and hydra? i would think mass roach would be better cause roaches do well against light units like hydra but hydra got range and if you have a concave of roaches vs a concave of roach hydra perhaps the roaches and hydra will get off more shots cause of the range while your mass roaches are just bobbling around trying to get in range to take shoots?
lol some how i manage to turn quick questions into huge paragraphs but once again i really really appreciate your help and its hard to find good help in this strat forum so to talk to some one who really knows what their talking about is a big help, thanks alot!
I really love your passion for Starcraft 2 and the things you have done for the e-sport scene
I have a question for ZvP
Q. I was never a fan of SC2 Hydras. To fend off a 4 gate rush, is banelings/lings a viable strategy?
I know that there will be FF issues, but when you send your banes in first, all the zealots at front be get owned. I don't think the stalkers will have blink at that point to tank the damage. Then a transition to mutas would be better to fend off colossus push?
Hey Artosis, I'm currently at about 1700points (diamond of course), Zerg.
I'm having especially huge trouble against Protoss, often even just trying to survive their Warp Gate pushes.
In your opinion, what's the best way to expand and defend against the varies Warp Gate pushes, including 3 Warp Gate quick Stalker, the usual 3 WP / 4 WP or other pressure into WP builds?
Also I'd love to know how to transition afterwards when they tech to Collossi etc. But as it seems you don't really have an answer to that either.
I feel like I can't just simply take a third base and tech to Tier3 because a huge Roach ball will become incredible ineffective against the usual Stalker/Sentries/some immortals ball duo to the Roach range and forcefield etc. So Hydras would be a good choice at that time. However I am almost never able to deal significant damage with that mix before his Collossi pop out and annihilate my Hydras/Roaches.
But again, I feel like I need Hydras to survive the huge Toss ball. That however results in late and few Ultralisks which are kinda insignificant because the toss can quickly focus down 2-3 ultras. Especially when lacking upgrades.
Oh and I didn't forget about Corrupters but I just don't think they're viable against that Toss ball unless you have an incredible huge lead already.
Thanks so much for posting these Artosis! you're awesome!
I have a question about your ZvZ on delta quadrant, when you get that infestor/roach/hydra army when is it a good idea to push out? I noticed you killed all of your opponents mutas before moving out. If you go out earlier however, you have the possibility of leaving your base wide open to muta harass
Hmm checked most of the Toss replays now but I gotta say most of your opponents were pretty darn bad :/
Like the Steps of War 3 game. That guy had like 68 apm average.
Not really your fault as you said you're getting a lot disconnects with your shitty inet connection. Yet I couldn't learn that much because most of your opponents didn't execute their play well.
On October 04 2010 16:16 H0bgawblin wrote: I wish sooo much that I could watch these replays right now, but I can't so I have to ask you man.
1:What is your spire timing when you go 2base hydra against toss and the toss goes col's. I know you said just don't open den because of col's, but how can you be so confident he won't open air? I can sack an OL at 30 to see what he's doing sure, but at two base what's your ol sack timing and how do you know where his tech is building?
2: Also against a 2 base terran macro push using hellion/thor/tanks/splash of marine what is your transition before ultras? You said in an earlier post mass roach, but how can you scout this?
P.S. Awesome coverage and your reference to fruit dealer pealing that one player I won't mention, like an orange in that one game, that I also won't mention, was the best fruit reference for the zerg messiah that I heard the entire gsl (sorry tasteless).
Q1. You need to start the spire when he starts the robo. does it matter if p makes air? i want p to make air. 3 queens is becoming pretty standard for me, and maybe infestors too. just make an overseer to scout him real quick off 2 bases.
On October 05 2010 00:27 HatchetWound wrote: hey artosis i wanted to thank you so much for responding to my questions. While reading over your responces i came up with a couple more questions. I might have noticed this while watching your fpvods. Which i found after this rep pack thread and i think you released that before this rep pack so any ways my question was...
1.In ZvZ i noticed from your fp vods that you would open ling speed and baneling and if you scouted your opponent going roaches you would either cancel your baneling building and go roaches. My question to you is if when u discover your opponent is going roaches what is the best way to beat it? I have seen roaches owned by mass ling out in the open but in certain spots I have seen the roaches come out on top. or should u grab an expansion and go roaches your self?
2. Also one last quick question? what is better mass roach or roach and hydra? i would think mass roach would be better cause roaches do well against light units like hydra but hydra got range and if you have a concave of roaches vs a concave of roach hydra perhaps the roaches and hydra will get off more shots cause of the range while your mass roaches are just bobbling around trying to get in range to take shoots?
lol some how i manage to turn quick questions into huge paragraphs but once again i really really appreciate your help and its hard to find good help in this strat forum so to talk to some one who really knows what their talking about is a big help, thanks alot!
Q1. The best counter to 1base roach openings is what i do in those VODs. if you react just right to his type of roach play, you will absolutely crush him.
Q2. Roach/Hydra in the right ratio is the best. Infestors should be mixed in as well.
I really love your passion for Starcraft 2 and the things you have done for the e-sport scene
I have a question for ZvP
Q. I was never a fan of SC2 Hydras. To fend off a 4 gate rush, is banelings/lings a viable strategy?
I know that there will be FF issues, but when you send your banes in first, all the zealots at front be get owned. I don't think the stalkers will have blink at that point to tank the damage. Then a transition to mutas would be better to fend off colossus push?
Thank you
Banelings are pretty useless in most spots against protoss because of FFs. good players wont let them hit their zealots. you should go ling/roach/sunken or ling/sunken=>hydra to fend off 4 gate.
On October 05 2010 05:09 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote: Hey Artosis, I'm currently at about 1700points (diamond of course), Zerg.
I'm having especially huge trouble against Protoss, often even just trying to survive their Warp Gate pushes.
In your opinion, what's the best way to expand and defend against the varies Warp Gate pushes, including 3 Warp Gate quick Stalker, the usual 3 WP / 4 WP or other pressure into WP builds?
Also I'd love to know how to transition afterwards when they tech to Collossi etc. But as it seems you don't really have an answer to that either.
I feel like I can't just simply take a third base and tech to Tier3 because a huge Roach ball will become incredible ineffective against the usual Stalker/Sentries/some immortals ball duo to the Roach range and forcefield etc. So Hydras would be a good choice at that time. However I am almost never able to deal significant damage with that mix before his Collossi pop out and annihilate my Hydras/Roaches.
But again, I feel like I need Hydras to survive the huge Toss ball. That however results in late and few Ultralisks which are kinda insignificant because the toss can quickly focus down 2-3 ultras. Especially when lacking upgrades.
Oh and I didn't forget about Corrupters but I just don't think they're viable against that Toss ball unless you have an incredible huge lead already.
Yeah....this would require a guide to answer, and the guide would be outdated in a week or 2 max. Right now every Zerg is experimenting heavily with different ways to play ZvP, because making ground units vs Colossus timing push is completely imbalanced/unplayable. Hopefully I'll have a good answer for it by the time GSL quals roll around in 4 days
On October 05 2010 05:20 SirJebadiah wrote: Thanks so much for posting these Artosis! you're awesome!
I have a question about your ZvZ on delta quadrant, when you get that infestor/roach/hydra army when is it a good idea to push out? I noticed you killed all of your opponents mutas before moving out. If you go out earlier however, you have the possibility of leaving your base wide open to muta harass
You have to just get the right sized army. I can't say exact numbers to be honest. I just look at it and say "ok this will kill him" and then i go.
On October 05 2010 05:52 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote: Hmm checked most of the Toss replays now but I gotta say most of your opponents were pretty darn bad :/
Like the Steps of War 3 game. That guy had like 68 apm average.
Not really your fault as you said you're getting a lot disconnects with your shitty inet connection. Yet I couldn't learn that much because most of your opponents didn't execute their play well.
Wasn't aware that making colossuses needed more than 68 apm. Regardless, I said specifically in my opening post that I got a lot of disconnects which dropped my score, and thus the games aren't vs the best players in the world. Thus, your post is stupid and pointless.
hey man u are so cool (no this is not sarcasm). i myself played terran in bw and have watched many of ur vids.
anyways
ZvZ baneling war both players decide to tech to lair, and relatively even in terms of economy.
you would obviously go spire right? what do u do if u scout him going hydras? if he's going hydras, he's also obviously going to go maybe infestor/roach, roaches to deal with banelings and to tank, infestors to help out vs muta and ling/baneling. so do u continue building mutas and maybe expo while containing with muta? or would u consider going for roach/hydra as well, but perhaps falling slightly behind in your ground unit production cuz u build a spire.
Wasn't aware that making colossuses needed more than 68 apm. Regardless, I said specifically in my opening post that I got a lot of disconnects which dropped my score, and thus the games aren't vs the best players in the world. Thus, your post is stupid and pointless.[/QUOTE]
LoL, Artosis I don't care what anyone says YOUR THE MAN!!
Edit: I know I know, when it comes to getting the quote I FAIL ahah. Can't seem to get the damn thing to work.
I just finished watching all the ZvPs. Very good play, and have learned a lot. A couple of questions:
1) In the match on Desert Oasis, he opened phoenixes, so you held off with some hydra/infestor, which makes sense. However, then you suddenly build TWO spires, mass mutas, and get double air ups. I'm curious what lead to this decision, how you knew you'd be safe, and how successful this has been for you in other matches.
2) In a couple of matches, I noticed that you go very hydra heavy, which of course prompts colossi. However, you seem to delay ultras quite some time while you mass lots and lots of hydras/roaches. What is the benefit to this over teching to ultras a bit earlier will holding off with largely burrow-roaches, lings, and just a few hydras (w/ maybe a couple infestors)? Is there a reason why faster ultra is dangerous?
3) Do you prefer mutas to corruptors against a toss going gateway/colossi? I noticed you use mutas to great effect against toss, en masse.
Thanks! Looking forward to watching the other matchups! Artosis hwaiting!
what are your thoughts on the protoss race? according to many korean pro zergs such as cool and check in their gsl interviews, protoss seems to give zergs much more grief than terrans.
do u consider protoss "stronger", in a sense, in the ZvP matchup? if so, to what degree, in comparison to ZvT
On October 05 2010 11:45 qwerfsad wrote: hey man u are so cool (no this is not sarcasm). i myself played terran in bw and have watched many of ur vids.
anyways
ZvZ baneling war both players decide to tech to lair, and relatively even in terms of economy.
you would obviously go spire right? what do u do if u scout him going hydras? if he's going hydras, he's also obviously going to go maybe infestor/roach, roaches to deal with banelings and to tank, infestors to help out vs muta and ling/baneling. so do u continue building mutas and maybe expo while containing with muta? or would u consider going for roach/hydra as well, but perhaps falling slightly behind in your ground unit production cuz u build a spire.
Nah, I don't like going spire. Its normally quite bad. Infestors own it too hard. I prefer to tech into Hydra or infestor myself when we both go lair.
On October 05 2010 12:52 SpaceYeti wrote: Artosis,
I just finished watching all the ZvPs. Very good play, and have learned a lot. A couple of questions:
1) In the match on Desert Oasis, he opened phoenixes, so you held off with some hydra/infestor, which makes sense. However, then you suddenly build TWO spires, mass mutas, and get double air ups. I'm curious what lead to this decision, how you knew you'd be safe, and how successful this has been for you in other matches.
2) In a couple of matches, I noticed that you go very hydra heavy, which of course prompts colossi. However, you seem to delay ultras quite some time while you mass lots and lots of hydras/roaches. What is the benefit to this over teching to ultras a bit earlier will holding off with largely burrow-roaches, lings, and just a few hydras (w/ maybe a couple infestors)? Is there a reason why faster ultra is dangerous?
3) Do you prefer mutas to corruptors against a toss going gateway/colossi? I noticed you use mutas to great effect against toss, en masse.
Thanks! Looking forward to watching the other matchups! Artosis hwaiting!
Q1. When someone goes for a lot of Phoenixes early, especially on a map so long as DO, they can't attack you very easily. My economy was good, so I decided to go with Mutalisks. I can't stand ground units on that map, way too immobile.
Q2. The scenario you suggest does not exist. You suggested Hydras (gas heavy), Roaches with burrow upgrades (gas heavy), Infestors (gas heavy) into Hive/Ultras (gas heavy). Faster Ultras are dangerous because their timing attack comes out and kills you. Not that mass ground units is the right way to go. ZvP is about to change a lot, as the current strategies with Zerg are not up to par.
Q3. Massed Mutas are great, its just hard to do them because of timing pushes from mass warpgates. I much prefer mutas to any other unit in ZvP, if I can possibly go them.
On October 05 2010 13:21 qwerfsad wrote: what are your thoughts on the protoss race? according to many korean pro zergs such as cool and check in their gsl interviews, protoss seems to give zergs much more grief than terrans.
do u consider protoss "stronger", in a sense, in the ZvP matchup? if so, to what degree, in comparison to ZvT
ZvP is the hardest matchup in the game. Protoss has a lot of very strong options, and the Colossus screws up the math on everything that isn't mutalisks. Yes, right this moment, Protoss is stronger than Zerg. I feel like theres going to be a big style change in ZvP, if not, I'm not sure how Zergs will beat Colossus based builds.
On October 05 2010 13:21 qwerfsad wrote: what are your thoughts on the protoss race? according to many korean pro zergs such as cool and check in their gsl interviews, protoss seems to give zergs much more grief than terrans.
do u consider protoss "stronger", in a sense, in the ZvP matchup? if so, to what degree, in comparison to ZvT
ZvP is the hardest matchup in the game. Protoss has a lot of very strong options, and the Colossus screws up the math on everything that isn't mutalisks. Yes, right this moment, Protoss is stronger than Zerg. I feel like theres going to be a big style change in ZvP, if not, I'm not sure how Zergs will beat Colossus based builds.
What's working for you/Asian server at the moment? The only thing that I have consistent success with is mass upgraded mutalisks, like freakin 50+ of them. They beat colos (obviously), and storm (magic box mutas over his army then dodge, snipe HTs, etc.) But I feel it's taking me too long to get to that amount of mutas, and that zealots are actually real scary because they will smash through anything I have on the ground then rape and pillage my little zerg cities.
I guess what I'm saying is: Nothing works consistently, on the ladder I just do random-ass cheesy doom-drop wannabes at semi-appropriate timings and It wins me games here and there but ZvP is holding me down.
Oh and keep it up, looking forward to the audio ones.
Thanks so much for the replays! It's been helping me deal with the rut I've found myself in. I wish Fruit Dealer would learn from your example cause I can't find any replays of him post 1.1.1
Great casting in the GSL. I'll be rooting for you in GSL2!
First of all great replays and great job casting GSL and good luck in season 2.
Really interested in your use of Hydras in ZvT. Your creep spread is impeccable and just watching these games has actually made me improve my ability to spread creep while still macroing so for that I thank you.
My questions:
1. If you see your opponent research blue flame helions, what is your reaction? I understand that you can use fungal to prevent them from kiting, but is there a way for you to be agressive before they can push with something like infernal preigniter + thor + banshee? I'm not exactly perfect with this order of teching, but I had a ton of hydras and lings get ruined by about 8 or 9 blue flame helions while I was still trying to get infestors out.
2. What factors influence the timing of your third base and fourth base?
3. What factors influence whether you will get a hydra den first or the infestation pit? Do you ever incorporate other units into the mix with this strategy?
4. Have you ever had to delay your evolution chambers or upgrades to fend off a timing push?
If you could answer even SOME of those, it would be VERY helpful! Again great stuff, very nice to see some fresh play instead of the stale ling bling muta that seems to permeate so many ZvT games. Granted, it's good, but innovation is important too.
On October 05 2010 13:21 qwerfsad wrote: what are your thoughts on the protoss race? according to many korean pro zergs such as cool and check in their gsl interviews, protoss seems to give zergs much more grief than terrans.
do u consider protoss "stronger", in a sense, in the ZvP matchup? if so, to what degree, in comparison to ZvT
ZvP is the hardest matchup in the game. Protoss has a lot of very strong options, and the Colossus screws up the math on everything that isn't mutalisks. Yes, right this moment, Protoss is stronger than Zerg. I feel like theres going to be a big style change in ZvP, if not, I'm not sure how Zergs will beat Colossus based builds.
What's working for you/Asian server at the moment? The only thing that I have consistent success with is mass upgraded mutalisks, like freakin 50+ of them. They beat colos (obviously), and storm (magic box mutas over his army then dodge, snipe HTs, etc.) But I feel it's taking me too long to get to that amount of mutas, and that zealots are actually real scary because they will smash through anything I have on the ground then rape and pillage my little zerg cities.
I guess what I'm saying is: Nothing works consistently, on the ladder I just do random-ass cheesy doom-drop wannabes at semi-appropriate timings and It wins me games here and there but ZvP is holding me down.
Oh and keep it up, looking forward to the audio ones.
There isn't a certain thing working on the Asian servers right now that I know about. ZvP is quite hard, and as I've said a few times, it seems to be changing right now.
I have a question Artosis, not particularly game-play / strategy related, but related to the GSL.
First I'd like to start by saying; Tasteless and yourself, talk some hilarious shit when you guys are hosting the GSL, really helps the boring moments of the games become...less boring. My friends and I have been in stitches over some of the stuff Tasteless and yourself have talked about, so kudos on that point, I hope you guys are hosting next season, you did a great job.
Another point worth mentioning is that Picari sweat stuff...it looks and sounds like bottled Japanese groin sweat, just ugh, what does it taste like? Not that I guess you can give me an honest opinion on a sponsor on public forum, but I'm curious, so I'll try anyway.
Now, onto my question, when are Tasteless and yourself getting married, whose casting it and what race theme (I'm betting Zerg) are you considering?
P.S Tasteless looks like a sleepy T-rex and you look like a happy Pterodactyl, which is cool, because Dinosaurs and Pterosaurs are fucking cool.
What is the correct follow up when Protoss blocks your ramp with 2plyon and cannons while fast expanding? Do you usually do 1 base play or are you busting out and double expanding?
Artosis makes a lot of hydra's vs Terran. I think someone calculated that hydras arent cost effective against a single unit of terran. But I guess when supported by melee lings or roaches theyre just so awesome dps it doesnt matter? Anyone got some better knowledge/math about this?
On October 05 2010 13:21 qwerfsad wrote: what are your thoughts on the protoss race? according to many korean pro zergs such as cool and check in their gsl interviews, protoss seems to give zergs much more grief than terrans.
do u consider protoss "stronger", in a sense, in the ZvP matchup? if so, to what degree, in comparison to ZvT
ZvP is the hardest matchup in the game. Protoss has a lot of very strong options, and the Colossus screws up the math on everything that isn't mutalisks. Yes, right this moment, Protoss is stronger than Zerg. I feel like theres going to be a big style change in ZvP, if not, I'm not sure how Zergs will beat Colossus based builds.
What's working for you/Asian server at the moment? The only thing that I have consistent success with is mass upgraded mutalisks, like freakin 50+ of them. They beat colos (obviously), and storm (magic box mutas over his army then dodge, snipe HTs, etc.) But I feel it's taking me too long to get to that amount of mutas, and that zealots are actually real scary because they will smash through anything I have on the ground then rape and pillage my little zerg cities.
I guess what I'm saying is: Nothing works consistently, on the ladder I just do random-ass cheesy doom-drop wannabes at semi-appropriate timings and It wins me games here and there but ZvP is holding me down.
Oh and keep it up, looking forward to the audio ones.
There isn't a certain thing working on the Asian servers right now that I know about. ZvP is quite hard, and as I've said a few times, it seems to be changing right now.
Well that's not helping a lot :p so let's try asking for something more specific!
Spine crawlers are completely useless on at least half the maps, how the hell do you not lose automatically to 4 gates on said maps?
Actually, here is a curve ball kind of question. If you had to list the order of things, what ever the things may be, that a person should to do get better, what would that list be? Coaching? sparing and cg's? Mass ladder?
On October 05 2010 16:44 H0bgawblin wrote: Actually, here is a curve ball kind of question. If you had to list the order of things, what ever the things may be, that a person should to do get better, what would that list be? Coaching? sparing and cg's? Mass ladder?
First off, my name is NOT Artosis. However, I've found mass ladder and analyzing my own replays as well as pro-replays to be the best help. adder is generally better than blind custom games because of the more consistent quality of the opponents you face. However, if you can find a god practice partner who is willing to play lots of customs games with you, that *can* be very effective. My experience, however, has been that I learn how to play against that 1-players style really well, but am left unprepared for other styles of play that I might encounter on the ladder.
So in short, play mass ladder because you get better consistency in the quality of opponents as well as a wide variety of play-styles. Also watch and analyze your own replays and top tier replays from fellows like Artosis, comparing your play to theirs.
What would you suggest a player without much time do to get better? Currently sitting around 1200-1300 Diamond and I'm trying to get better. I don't have the time to mass play really - a couple hours a day max with some more time on the weekends.
Are there certain things I can do to step up my game faster? I watch replays at work, but a maximum of one replay as I have to get up from the computer a bunch.
Also what do you think are the best fundamental skills to master? My larvae inject timings have been steadily getting better but around my third expansion it starts to slip up with more and more fights happening. My macro is getting better, I'm expanding better and such, but sometimes I still feel like it's a tad too slow, being Zerg all.
And lastly what are some good ways to hold off early Protoss pressure that goes into 3 gate robo with Colossi. I see you explained a few times you prefer Mutas, but they're so ungodly expensive and to keep up a decent count that will allow you to defend properly it feels like you'll never get out of them. Colossi/Zealots completely dominate the Lings so it's hard to get that mass amount of Muta's while still trying to defend early harassment.
Wow I'm blown away by the game on xel naga where the T makes early PF at gold and then takes third.
You are actually behind in eco for a bit.
I think no way you can win vs a terran that just got a gold and set up his defense there and takes a third.
Then he pushes with tanks with a slightly bigger army
And I think NO WAY.
Then you attack his PF gold when he kills your gold. And I think NO WAY that you will get out on top of this now loosing so much to that PF. Then engage in a battle where you have 3.9k army vs terrans 5.5k army. And its hydra/ling (with infestor support) against marine/marauder/tank that I think absolutely OWNS lings and hydras. You basicly trade armies even here, 4k losses on both sides in a battle that should be way more one sided and your reinforcements clean up the mess. Your patience engaging that army was truly something special to watch. You waited till his tanks was out of place and took the opportunity. And you could even have microd the infestors better! 2 died with full energy so the potential was even higher in that battle. Awesomely played
Really peaks me interest into using infestors more.
QUESTION: in zvp you seem to like getting the hydra very early, but as seen in a few of the reps you have some trouble w/ the 4 gate all in. Why not just use roach ling to hold it off w/ a few spine crawlers instead of rush teching which can get you into trouble
** a side question off the 1st is in some zvp's you do make a roach warren but make no roach and continue to make drone. Do you feel that you need that much of a economic advantage vs protoss to win the game. From watching Cool and Check they both prefer the lower teir units and making sure they are safe defensewise b4 teching and this seems to really work out well. And since your expo is up much earlier if they decide to expo, you can just drone up and still maintain a large lead in economics and get a 3rd base
First of all great replays and great job casting GSL and good luck in season 2.
Really interested in your use of Hydras in ZvT. Your creep spread is impeccable and just watching these games has actually made me improve my ability to spread creep while still macroing so for that I thank you.
My questions:
1. If you see your opponent research blue flame helions, what is your reaction? I understand that you can use fungal to prevent them from kiting, but is there a way for you to be agressive before they can push with something like infernal preigniter + thor + banshee? I'm not exactly perfect with this order of teching, but I had a ton of hydras and lings get ruined by about 8 or 9 blue flame helions while I was still trying to get infestors out.
2. What factors influence the timing of your third base and fourth base?
3. What factors influence whether you will get a hydra den first or the infestation pit? Do you ever incorporate other units into the mix with this strategy?
4. Have you ever had to delay your evolution chambers or upgrades to fend off a timing push?
If you could answer even SOME of those, it would be VERY helpful! Again great stuff, very nice to see some fresh play instead of the stale ling bling muta that seems to permeate so many ZvT games. Granted, it's good, but innovation is important too.
Q1. A couple spine crawlers + good creep spread + some speedlings + 2 queens is enough to hold off early blue hellions. later on you have hydras and infestors so its fine. you can't be aggressive vs terran as zerg, it simply doesn't work.
Q2. I feel it all out. 3rd is as fast as possible without dying, 4th is based upon if I have a decent unit comp to take out what they are making.
Q3. I normally get infestation pit first if they aren't expanding yet. otherwise i normally get hydra. sometimes i will switch that up though.
Q4. yeah, of course. sometimes i get them after my 3rd base infact. i like them early but its not required by any means.
On October 05 2010 15:08 RapBreon wrote: I have a question Artosis, not particularly game-play / strategy related, but related to the GSL.
First I'd like to start by saying; Tasteless and yourself, talk some hilarious shit when you guys are hosting the GSL, really helps the boring moments of the games become...less boring. My friends and I have been in stitches over some of the stuff Tasteless and yourself have talked about, so kudos on that point, I hope you guys are hosting next season, you did a great job.
Another point worth mentioning is that Picari sweat stuff...it looks and sounds like bottled Japanese groin sweat, just ugh, what does it taste like? Not that I guess you can give me an honest opinion on a sponsor on public forum, but I'm curious, so I'll try anyway.
Now, onto my question, when are Tasteless and yourself getting married, whose casting it and what race theme (I'm betting Zerg) are you considering?
P.S Tasteless looks like a sleepy T-rex and you look like a happy Pterodactyl, which is cool, because Dinosaurs and Pterosaurs are fucking cool.
Its water flavored gatorade. Seriously. I drink it sometimes by myself. Its not bad.
On October 05 2010 15:43 ktp wrote: What is the correct follow up when Protoss blocks your ramp with 2plyon and cannons while fast expanding? Do you usually do 1 base play or are you busting out and double expanding?
There's nothing perfect yet. If they are fast expanding I might go crazy aggressive, but how I do so would depend upon the spots on the map, and the layout of their choke.
On October 05 2010 16:12 magha wrote: Artosis makes a lot of hydra's vs Terran. I think someone calculated that hydras arent cost effective against a single unit of terran. But I guess when supported by melee lings or roaches theyre just so awesome dps it doesnt matter? Anyone got some better knowledge/math about this?
Hydras outrange a buncha stuff, especially when its in a clump, not getting any sort of surface area. thats why hydras are good with fungal.
On October 05 2010 13:21 qwerfsad wrote: what are your thoughts on the protoss race? according to many korean pro zergs such as cool and check in their gsl interviews, protoss seems to give zergs much more grief than terrans.
do u consider protoss "stronger", in a sense, in the ZvP matchup? if so, to what degree, in comparison to ZvT
ZvP is the hardest matchup in the game. Protoss has a lot of very strong options, and the Colossus screws up the math on everything that isn't mutalisks. Yes, right this moment, Protoss is stronger than Zerg. I feel like theres going to be a big style change in ZvP, if not, I'm not sure how Zergs will beat Colossus based builds.
What's working for you/Asian server at the moment? The only thing that I have consistent success with is mass upgraded mutalisks, like freakin 50+ of them. They beat colos (obviously), and storm (magic box mutas over his army then dodge, snipe HTs, etc.) But I feel it's taking me too long to get to that amount of mutas, and that zealots are actually real scary because they will smash through anything I have on the ground then rape and pillage my little zerg cities.
I guess what I'm saying is: Nothing works consistently, on the ladder I just do random-ass cheesy doom-drop wannabes at semi-appropriate timings and It wins me games here and there but ZvP is holding me down.
Oh and keep it up, looking forward to the audio ones.
There isn't a certain thing working on the Asian servers right now that I know about. ZvP is quite hard, and as I've said a few times, it seems to be changing right now.
Well that's not helping a lot :p so let's try asking for something more specific!
Spine crawlers are completely useless on at least half the maps, how the hell do you not lose automatically to 4 gates on said maps?
On October 05 2010 16:44 H0bgawblin wrote: Actually, here is a curve ball kind of question. If you had to list the order of things, what ever the things may be, that a person should to do get better, what would that list be? Coaching? sparing and cg's? Mass ladder?
The best case scenario is talking about the game with someone better than you, someone who realy knows what they are talking about. Watching DAy9 dailies, replay packs, practicing, watching your own replays, etc. its all important. different people do things in different amounts because of the way they learn.
What would you suggest a player without much time do to get better? Currently sitting around 1200-1300 Diamond and I'm trying to get better. I don't have the time to mass play really - a couple hours a day max with some more time on the weekends.
Are there certain things I can do to step up my game faster? I watch replays at work, but a maximum of one replay as I have to get up from the computer a bunch.
Also what do you think are the best fundamental skills to master? My larvae inject timings have been steadily getting better but around my third expansion it starts to slip up with more and more fights happening. My macro is getting better, I'm expanding better and such, but sometimes I still feel like it's a tad too slow, being Zerg all.
And lastly what are some good ways to hold off early Protoss pressure that goes into 3 gate robo with Colossi. I see you explained a few times you prefer Mutas, but they're so ungodly expensive and to keep up a decent count that will allow you to defend properly it feels like you'll never get out of them. Colossi/Zealots completely dominate the Lings so it's hard to get that mass amount of Muta's while still trying to defend early harassment.
Few things:
Everyone misses injects. It happens. Even IdrA misses injects. Make an extra hatchery or 2. Mutas are hard to go, yes. ZvP is probably going to change shortly here.
As far as getting better without a ton of time to practice, you can go over game scenarios in your head. This is something I used to do a lot when I didn't have time to practice enough in SC1. Simply thinking about different situations, what you would do, the order you would click in, the extra stuff you never do, going over it in your head a lot actually makes you much better. Its not quite as good as actually practicing, but a lot closer than people think.
On October 06 2010 07:31 Oodama wrote: QUESTION: in zvp you seem to like getting the hydra very early, but as seen in a few of the reps you have some trouble w/ the 4 gate all in. Why not just use roach ling to hold it off w/ a few spine crawlers instead of rush teching which can get you into trouble
** a side question off the 1st is in some zvp's you do make a roach warren but make no roach and continue to make drone. Do you feel that you need that much of a economic advantage vs protoss to win the game. From watching Cool and Check they both prefer the lower teir units and making sure they are safe defensewise b4 teching and this seems to really work out well. And since your expo is up much earlier if they decide to expo, you can just drone up and still maintain a large lead in economics and get a 3rd base
ehhh... yeah, theres a lot of ways to hold the rush. i'm playing around with many of them at the moment. hydra is the one i've used for a long time and am quite comfortable with. i can actually get a really good economy with it, but im testing the roach ones too atm.
Sorry if this has been asked before but is there a reason you havn't adopted the shift+v backspace through hatcheries method of larva injection? or is it just that you're used to the method you currently use.
Artosis, I think I speak for everyone here when I say that we really appreciate what you're doing here.
Anyways.. I'm not sure if you had any experience playing cross region servers NA->KR. But, I'm in NA and have the means to get my hands on a KR account. I obviously want to play on the KR servers, as the competition is a lot harder but at the same time I'm worried about the ping. Do you think the lag is playable? Or am I better off staying on the NA servers. I completely apologize for asking this question, but you are literally the only person I can think of who may have had experience. Thanks.
Not sure if this was asked at any point in the thread, but you never seem to upgrade Neural Parasite even when you have extra resources for it. There were some points where i thought you could get away with it and steal a thor or two for free, but you never had it. Do you think neural parasite is useless or more of a personal choice.
On October 06 2010 11:26 Freezy3 wrote: Sorry if this has been asked before but is there a reason you havn't adopted the shift+v backspace through hatcheries method of larva injection? or is it just that you're used to the method you currently use.
Nice games so far continue the great work :D
I like the way i do it. Its quite good for crisis management and fits my style well.
On October 06 2010 12:02 tackklee wrote: Artosis, I think I speak for everyone here when I say that we really appreciate what you're doing here.
Anyways.. I'm not sure if you had any experience playing cross region servers NA->KR. But, I'm in NA and have the means to get my hands on a KR account. I obviously want to play on the KR servers, as the competition is a lot harder but at the same time I'm worried about the ping. Do you think the lag is playable? Or am I better off staying on the NA servers. I completely apologize for asking this question, but you are literally the only person I can think of who may have had experience. Thanks.
The latency between us and korea is unplayable. Dont bother.
On October 06 2010 12:40 GreenLight wrote: Not sure if this was asked at any point in the thread, but you never seem to upgrade Neural Parasite even when you have extra resources for it. There were some points where i thought you could get away with it and steal a thor or two for free, but you never had it. Do you think neural parasite is useless or more of a personal choice.
Very good question. It is almost useless, but yeah there are some rare occasions where i want to use it, and will in the future. I never really thought about it that much till u asked. Thx!
On October 02 2010 12:38 Artosis wrote: Q1. Well it matters the matchup. I like roaches zvz on delta quadrant. sometimes i open roaches randomly on Kulas Ravine, just because you have to be unpredictable there. I also am toying around with Korean style ZvP which is atm heavily roach based. Just kinda mixing it up, seeing how it goes.
Can you explain this Korean style of ZvP that you mentioned? I tried doing some Roach heavy play against Toss today, with extra Queens for Creep spread/Antiair and worked pretty well. What are the advantages/disadvantages of going Roach heavy and how does this style do against the US aggressive style PvZ play (4 gate, 3 gate robo, void ray cheese). Thanks
On October 06 2010 12:40 GreenLight wrote: Not sure if this was asked at any point in the thread, but you never seem to upgrade Neural Parasite even when you have extra resources for it. There were some points where i thought you could get away with it and steal a thor or two for free, but you never had it. Do you think neural parasite is useless or more of a personal choice.
Very good question. It is almost useless, but yeah there are some rare occasions where i want to use it, and will in the future. I never really thought about it that much till u asked. Thx!
ZOMG! Artosis is now my pick for GSL S2!
xD
Artosis, regarding Neural Parasite, in what situations do you find it most useful.. The only times I have really tried using it are when they go BCs, Thors, or Colossi. In all three cases, it rarely pays much dividends and I have generally concluded that the energy is better spent on Fungal Growth or Infested Terrans even. What are your thoughts on best Neural Parasite use?
Thx for the replays! I play mostly Zerg in Ladder, mid Diamond, and I always seem to be fending off harass when I go 14 pool 13 gas, and espically when I FE. I know you don't like to do a quick rush build, but what are you opinions on a 7 pool using 6 lings to harass and then start drone pumping after that and maybe transistion into hydra or roaches for a follow up push? This question only concerns ZvP in my case. I am trying to work out a nice build order leading up to a strong mid game push that allows for early pressure.
After watching you cast numerous games with Tasteless in the GSL, I leaped at the chance to cast some of your games with this replay pack. I've only been casting a few months, but I have a really fun time with it. You're amazing at Starcraft and very entertaining as a caster. If you have time, please watch this video and give me feedback on how to improve the quality of my product, as I will take what advice you give
Hello. I watched your ZvT on Metalopolis vs. Supreme Gamer. I noticed for much of the early game you were seeing very little of the map. I understand that your overlords were trapped due to the vikings and such. Perhaps some zergling scouts could be good to scout potential hidden expos until you can send out overlords? I thought that the Terran might have taken the gold base, and sure enough, when you sent your overlords to drop creep at all the expo spots at about 17:00 the Terran was already mining the gold minerals.
Of course, I am not sure of the timing. Maybe it isn't possible for Terran to secure a third that early and make you pay for it, since you handled it fine once it was found. Also, maybe the gold is the usual 3rd at your level of play on Metalopolis. I just noticed that a hidden expo gave Idra trouble on this map so perhaps it could be one more thing to keep in mind. I almost died of a heart attack when Stork didn't look at Fantasy's hidden expo in that OSL game 5 so I thought I should mention it.
Thank you so much Artosis for this pack, especially for the ZvT, I like hydras so much but was too afraid of tanks and MMM but your replays will, I hope, help me to refine my play. I saw on your twitter that you were working on a new ZvP build and that you felt very confident in it, hope you will share it with us soon, because I struggle hard vs colossi buils
I like your macro orientated style and your very good creep tumor usage. Really fun to watch!
You have to be careful to be too predictable, since your opponents will never get punished to play very risky build orders vs you. You are very very predictable on the other hand you have a good reactionary play.
Would enjoy seeing you using this image to get an advantage every 5th game or so. obviously your macro is good. So work on your weaknesses ^^
Not sure if you expect someone to critisize though
Enjoyed your reps a lot! Hoping for stronger opponents in the next replay pack!
Build orders aside, when I sat down and watched all your ZvT games I was looking for mechanics I needed. Building more queens than I have hatcheries, spreading creep, spreading overlords. All of these things I didn't think much about, but now I try to stay on top of. I just won six games in a row, one ZvZ, one ZvP, 4 ZvT. It was never even close. There was a few times early pushes got through my initial spine crawlers defense, but those lasted long enough to make more units to push them away. Spreading creep is like map hacking, as soon as they step foot on it, I know exactly where they are, and then I get to decide when to engage, not wait until they hit my choke and go "Oh FUCK!" Also, I'm taking note of your simple control groups, makes it pretty easy to control my infestors and get the right stuff in front.
But I have one question:
Vs terran, what will make you go roaches first, banelings first, or lair first? While when following your example, I haven't lost to a terran, that first early push is scary, and I've mostly only just barely stopped it before they hit my natural. I'd like to hear your logic behind this so I can get more confidence in my build
You mention that ultras fit this style you're working with better. In a more general sense, when would ultras be better and when would brood lords be better ? I find that ultras tend to feel more comfortable, but that's only because I'm not really familiar when to use one over the other.
My worst matchup by far is ZvZ. I hope this question makes sense. How do you control your lings/banes optimally ? I try to use 2 control groups, 1 for lings and 1 for banes and then micro individual unit groups around as needed. The problem that I run into is that at some point in time I'll try to readjust one of the control groups and utterly wreck the entire positioning I worked on. What do you do during these battles to properly position everything ?
The recurring problem during ZvT that I lose to is some form of marine/hellion/thor/scv all in. The timing window is usually pushing out with 1 thor, 2 max. I know it's been discussed in these forums a lot, but how do you deal with this ? You mention mass roach to something like this, not sure if the same idea applies.
I agree with your statement about zerg just not having the right style to combat the protoss gate/colossi timing push. Personally, I appreciate you saying this rather than "Protoss is imbalanced" and instead work on a way to combat the problem. I really like this mindset and respect you even more for it. On to the question. How do you start producing a new style to combat newer styles that are thrown at us ?
Have you ever thought of commenting on your own games and giving us your own insight as to what you're thinking about in a FP POV ? It would allow us to see how a pro thinks and maybe adjust our own thought patterns. I know this would be time intensive and would completely understand if this is something you couldn't do. Just by reading this and answering even the first 2 questions I'd be in your debt.
Again, thank you for all of the help you've given the community. Any further replay packs are guaranteed to be received well by the majority of the zerg community. They are of a great benefit to us. The people who wouldn't want you to release any more are those that we crush because of your guidance.
I generally don't go out of my way to watch Zerg replays, but Artosis is a total legend. Thanks for the replay pack, keep up the awesome work at GSL. <3
Just saw this topic, and already finished watching a zvp on lost temple versus nadir. I'm still not sure how you survived that lol, I think I would have left after my hatch died. (the army values at the start of that fight were so one sided in his favor!)
As for questions that i've had on my mind... what do you do versus opponents who open with blind phoenixs into collossi/hts if they see you switch to ground/ go hydras from the start?
How many drones is good number for a game? I tend to stop at around 70ish, not for any specific reason and I don't count them,it just "feels" like enough and I stop. Then afterwards I notice it was around 70. I'm sure i'll find this out after watching some more replays, but some times people don't do what they know is best in game.
Best way to deal with the garbage that is two pylons 1 cannon at the bottom of your ramp? Currently i've been trying to place a spine crawler nearby, but that delays your expo for years.
Lastly, a question that probably can't be answered so I won't hope for one, but I've been getting owned by my terran practice partner, whos army comp is: marine, tank, thor and medivac. I've had no answer for it at all so far. He puts down a command center when his first reactored hellions get made to harass, he'll get a few then lift it off and make tanks/thors out of it while reactoring marines.
Not expecting an answer for that last one, but it's just something that's been destroying me as of late and I don't know what to do about it. If anyone in general who reads this has encountered this and destroyed it, i'd be happy to watch your replay/hear how you did it.
Hey Artosis, big thanks from a grateful semi-scrubby Zerg nerd here (Rank 15~20 Diamond). I will be reviewing all of these replays and then posting again if I have any questions that haven't been addressed yet. Thanks so much!
Also, as an aside, great job casting the GSL, you and Tasteless do a very nice job. Very lively commentary and you enunciate clearly.
1) You mentioned and I've heard many others mention (day9, idra, etc.) that the most important thing to understand is economy based rts fundamentals. Well, none of you have ever even tried to explain what some of them are? I'm a fairly competent player simply because I have pretty fast hands (was a progamer before switching to sc2) and can out macro lots of opponents, but I admit I have tons to learn in good expansion timings (right now I just expand a ton and hope for the best) and being aggressive (I'm zerg so it's tough to be aggressive, but I'm REALLY passive, all my games end with me on like 5 bases and 200/200 food with almost zero pressure in return). Could you outline some of these fundamentals or point me in the right direction for my learning process?
2) I've gotten good at defending the classic 2 pylon at your ramp cannon contain v. protoss, but recently lost a few games to cannon "pushes" placed elsewhere. I know ideally the best thing to do is scout it and kill it, but when I only have 12 drones and 2 overlords, it's tough to be everywhere at once. So ignoring the "stop it before it happens" what do you do when it DOES happen? I've tried one base hydra and just didnt have enough stuff, and I managed to sneak an expo and get 10 mutas out, went straight for his base and he had just as many pheonixes. Any suggestions?
On October 10 2010 17:59 Island wrote: The answer is "because that's how he does it". It's what he likes, therefore that's what he does.
Yeah, but Artosis is a good player so wouldn't he want to use every shortcut possible. When I was watching his replays I was wondering "Is there a hotkey to select all your Queens like Protoss have with Warpgates?" The only time so far I've seen him hotkey Queens was to deal with a banshee harass.
Though I suppose his way of dealing with it is just that he hotkeys every hatchery individually.
Zerg builds on Jungle, GO! I can't think of anything that's viable against a fast expansion (both vs T and P), normally I'd take a fast 3rd but there's no 3rd base on this map, as far as I can see there are only 4 bases total on it. So what 2-base builds are there, drop/nydus?
Lastly, a question that probably can't be answered so I won't hope for one, but I've been getting owned by my terran practice partner, whos army comp is: marine, tank, thor and medivac. I've had no answer for it at all so far. He puts down a command center when his first reactored hellions get made to harass, he'll get a few then lift it off and make tanks/thors out of it while reactoring marines.
Not expecting an answer for that last one, but it's just something that's been destroying me as of late and I don't know what to do about it. If anyone in general who reads this has encountered this and destroyed it, i'd be happy to watch your replay/hear how you did it.
Hey, just saw your question. I'm not an expert, but just wondering if you tried ling/bling/muta combo for his comp mix. Usually works pretty well for me, key is to scout with the OL early and make sure he's really getting the mix of MM. Then you can grab some ling/bling for a push or even just to route him while you tech up to lair.
Not sure if this helps at all since I'm not Artosis lol! gl
EPT
Thanks Artosis for the uploads.. gonna watch right away! :D
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