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On September 22 2010 03:34 saefmate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2010 01:18 BlasiuS wrote:The moment you see a phoenix actually deal damage (don't be fooled by hallucinated scout phoenixes  ) select all overlords and move them near your queens. Hopefully you have extended creep from main to nat so your queens can quickly move back and forth. You should have scouted the stargate with either ling or saccing an overlord, and thus made extra queens and start hydra den as soon as lair finished. But if you're caught completely unaware, put down hydra den immediately and make 1-2 extra queens. If you haven't even started lair yet, well then you have to use queens, but you're probably going to be behind.
5 phoenix or less: 3 hydra + your queen should be enough to defend each base.6+ phoenix: Continue getting hydra of course, but also get an infestor pit and add 1-2 infestors to your hydra. Anytime phoenix come near your base, fungal growth, kill with hydra. Besides that, you just have to carefully watch your mini-map and have quick reflexes with your micro. i always make my stargate behind my mineral line so my stalkers will get ur overlord before it sees that (most people dont even go to the end of the mineral line anyway.
There are other ways of scouting or sensing a stargate build, such as noticing a lack of units or seeing delayed warp gate tech.
On September 22 2010 03:34 saefmate wrote:
and secondly 5 phoenix's will beat 3 hydras and a queen, if you lift off the queen and a hydra the remaining 3 will easily kill the hydra, then lift off another hydra , then kill, then the other, then kill while constantly keeping the queen up (which does the most damage and is slowest to kill then proceed to kill the queen (this is what i do)
then move your other 3 hydras + queen from your expo to help defend? This isn't rocket science.
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I find queens into corruptors and queens healing while you make roach/ling for their ground army because either they go HTs and mass zealots or they go coloussi with zealots in anticipation of hydras and roach/ling with corruptors counter both.
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You should have scouted the stargate with either ling or saccing an overlord
Oh yes, it's that simple.
If he blocks his choke how will you see it? If he has stalkers how will you see it? Overlord is too slow and will get sniped before getting close enough. Ling can only see a small area above ramp. A smart P will just hide it in the center of his base. DOn't say overlord speed either, cause by the time you get that it will be too late.
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The most difficult part of Stargate tech is that it is actually very easy to hide. I've seen plenty of Tosses throw down three gates by his ramp and still come out with quick air, not to mention a 3 gate timing attack to accompany it.
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At 1k+ Diamond level I've found the best counter is to get 4-5 queens, a spore in each mineral line, and rush Ultralisks. You run Ling/Ultra and just protect with your queen ball. Put all your overlords half way between your main and natural, and keep your queens under the overlords. When pheonix push one base or the other move your queen mass there (don't forget to keep injecting). If he tries to lift a queen, focus the pheonix using lift and heal the lifted queen.
Consider this: If he goes Pheonix that means you have considerably more time before you have to worry about Colossus/Templar. Use that time to get to Ultralisks fast and you'll just run him over.
The other very important thing to do is keep building drones: more than usual. Just assume a few will get sniped here-and-there regardless of the spore in each mineral line and your queen ball. You can still come out ahead if he builds 5 or more Pheonix pretty easily.
Edit: I also will rush +1 armor very quickly: this makes it extremely hard for Pheonix to kill queens, and it lets you rely on Zerglings almost exclusively until Ultralisks arrive since you don't have to worry about any mass-zealot mid-game timing pushes if you can keep your armor level up with his weapons. And I will usually get out a single Infestor if he has more than 5 Pheonix as it basically will let you gibb the whole pack with your queens if you get a single good lockdown.
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simply get a few spore crawlers in your base to prevent loosing more than scouting overlords - against phoenix a static def is quite effective since they cant attack them and you are able to leave your base without getting emptied - well placed spore and spine crawlers will make your zerg live much easier
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On September 22 2010 01:19 CanucksJC wrote:
Some people in this board will actually suggest mutalisks, however, that's just asking to rape you while you bend over.
As soon as you see stargate / phoenix / voidray, get your lair tech and hydra den. Get an extra queen for defense and they just wasted resources on harrass that didn't do much. Smart overlord placing helps too.
Honestly, mutas are not that bad of an idea. You can pump mutas faster than a Protoss (on one base) can build phoenixes out of 2 Stargates. If your opponent is hard pumping phoenixes, you can really over turn a match if you pump more mutas than him and wreck him with air. I've done this successfully.
Just build extra queens and hold off the initial harass with queens and mutas. Mutas in conjunction with queens actually defend really well and you can threaten a counter harass at any time.
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you generally want about 3-4 queens when dealing with phoenixes, get them early to spread creep/transfuse. mutalisks also work decently against phoenixes (about 1:1). the trick is to mutas back and let the phoenixes chase you. as soon as they fire their first shot turn around and attack while the phoenixes are decelerating.
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I lose to this all the time... I've won against it a few times against bad players, or undercommiting/overcommiting players, but never against anyone at my own level.
The most common pheonix build from what I've played against is gateway/forge -> fast expand, add gate nr 2, and then either double stargate or stargate+robo-> colossus or stargate+council->templar tech... The pheonixes/VRs keep you pinned back in your base and force hydras while they can safely tech up to colossi or storms which decimate hydras.
Last couple of times I've just gone for corruptors (I normally go for muta ling against protoss, so also the easiest choice, as I always have spire started at this point) + roaches w/all upgrades. Hasn't worked perfect, but better than hydras. Hydra based army is suicide in zvp unless he for some dumb reason sticks to only gateway units and stargates.
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I have been practicing builds for this with my P friend for about a week now. For a while, I was just producing roaches and hydras to fend off his attack and counter him after a failed push. That was when he was going 3 warpgate, 1 stargate. He initially came up with that build to counter my muta harass that nearly brought him to tears the previous week. After he realized my army was mainly hydras, he started doing a 2wg-1 stargate-1 robo build to have colossi ready if his first push failed. The way I have adapted was this: do the regular 14 gas/14 pool build with a 21 expo. Instead of taking drones off gas once ling speed starts, I left them on and got a ~24 lair. Once that's half done, I drop a roach Warren and Evo chamber. Once the lair is ready, I got roach speed, +1 attack and if I properly scouted the stargate, then I would be getting a spore in each mineral line and following with a den. If not, I would forego the spores and just put down a hydra den asap. Right around this time is where the first push comes and lings/roaches fend it off. After his failed push, you either counter and expo, or just macro and expo. His forces will be thin and he likely will sit back as he builds another army. After I know he has spotted my hydras, I ALWAYS get a spire. 4-6 corruptors will keep his colossi away from your roach/hydra army as you push/defend an the hydras render his phoenixes useless. We are both ~1200 diamond so this may not work at higher levels. At my level, it works great. I can upload a rep when i get home today.
Edit: sorry for the lack of formatting. I will also fix this when I get on a computer.
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I'm not sure I've ever won a game against a protoss player since beta ended if i see more then 3 or 4 phoenix's. I really have nothing constructive to add except build more hydras so you can instead get incinerated to death instead of graviton beamed to death and delay your inevitable defeat a little longer.
Yea i don't like ZvP :[
edit: stormguy's post above is pretty good advice too really.
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I've started getting a fast Evo Chamber against toss now. It allows for a quick upgrade, and you can throw down a Spore Crawler at each base if you see early Phoenix harass on the way.
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Definitely hydras as they'll do really well against the gateway army. The bigger issue is if he goes from phoenix directly to colossus and attacks. That's a lot harder to hold off in my experience. What you fundamentally have to do when the phoenix's show up is not over-react. Hes probably only using them to force a tech switch. If you keep that in mind you should be alright.
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Hydras, queens (especially with infestor), corruptors, and spore ALL work.
None of them are good for being offensive though, but hydras are obviously the best choice in that sense. They do well overall vs gateway units also, but graviton beam can remove hydras in a fight of warp gate units with phoenix, so they aren't fantastic.
I've done both hydra-corruptor (can't remember what I went into, maybe hydra-roach, maybe ultra-ling) and queen builds (into ultra-ling) recently, and they both worked, although both games the players weren't as good as most I play against.
Generally I find phoenix play (often with VRs) just doesn't work well unless the zerg went mutas.
Even when i gt mroe queens or hydra, I will get at least 1 spore for each hatchery I have though, since it really helps (especially if they go DT with it)
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EPT
