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I don't see this often but I am realizing that I auto-lose every time it happens. Basically they get some early phoenix's and start killing my overlords and queens, then they follow up with a warp gate attack. I get too far behind in production from losing queens and therefore larva, and then get even further behind by losing overlords, being supply capped, losing more larva to replace the overlords, and of course losing minerals to replace queens and overlords.
Even if the direct damage is not that big and I fend of the attack, losing only one or two queens if I am still on two base is a massive hit and if they are good they will take advantage of this by attacking before I can reinforce my army.
What are the best ways to stop this? I have tried extra queens for more air defense and it doesn't seem to be worth it. I have tried keeping my queens and overlords next to spore crawlers and it doesn't seem to be worth it (he will still kill my queens and lose maybe one phoenix, if any). I have tried mutalisks and the phoenixs just mop the floor with them. I have tried hyrdas on defense and he will use the opportunity to keep me in my base while expanding and out macroing me.
The only other things I can think of is to go for a timing attack before he gets phoenix's, hopefully he will have a critical weak point while teching to phoenix that I can exploit?
Other than that hyrdas seem to be the most promising, but I feel like I am either losing the game right away due to overlord/queen kills or I am losing the game slowly due to him having map control and being out macro'ed.
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I definitely think hydras are the way to go against this. It's all about critical mass, so he can't lift up any hydras without losing phoenix. Just scout early, as soon as you see hes not 2 gating get a fast expo up, and pump drones till the last possible moment then start making hydras. If you need, get a couple extra queens to hold off the first initial phoenix until your hydra den is up. Hydras destroy phoenix and gateway units so they are your best bet. You don't need to tech switch unless they switch to colossus, in which case you can get roaches to tank for your hydras and corruptors.
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The moment you see a phoenix actually deal damage (don't be fooled by hallucinated scout phoenixes  ) select all overlords and move them near your queens. Hopefully you have extended creep from main to nat so your queens can quickly move back and forth.
You should have scouted the stargate with either ling or saccing an overlord, and thus made extra queens and start hydra den as soon as lair finished. But if you're caught completely unaware, put down hydra den immediately and make 1-2 extra queens. If you haven't even started lair yet, well then you have to use queens, but you're probably going to be behind.
5 phoenix or less: 3 hydra + your queen should be enough to defend each base.
6+ phoenix: Continue getting hydra of course, but also get an infestor pit and add 1-2 infestors to your hydra. Anytime phoenix come near your base, fungal growth, kill with hydra.
Besides that, you just have to carefully watch your mini-map and have quick reflexes with your micro.
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Some people in this board will actually suggest mutalisks, however, that's just asking to rape you while you bend over.
As soon as you see stargate / phoenix / voidray, get your lair tech and hydra den. Get an extra queen for defense and they just wasted resources on harrass that didn't do much. Smart overlord placing helps too.
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Ive found the best counter to phoenix harass is constant pressure, specifically roach/ling heavy pressure. I play random, so my experience on both sides of this is probably lacking in comparison to a pure z or p, but I can say I've been on both ends.
One defensive technique I've seen used effectively is to sacrifice the overlord map control in the early-mid game (assuming thats when the harass is coming) and keep the ovies floating over a small queen cluster (2-3 should do it, unless he's got 5+, in which case you should have gotten to hyds or festors). Proper placement can make it quite challenging to pick up the queen below and the short phoenix range puts them in for some queen spines.
From a P perspective, spores will deter 2-3 phoenixes, but again, a crit mass of 5+ can still do heavy damage and get out of there without any losses other than a few downed shields and light hull hits.
Some maps (oasis, scrap) make timing counters pretty tough. Then again, the short ovie scout distance gives you some good anticipation of whats coming 
Lastly, you can grab a few corruptors if youve already committed to a spire tech path. phoenixes dont get their light bonus against corruptors, and the corruptor base damage in groups of 3-4 is good enough to take out a more crit mass phoenix cluster.
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2 queens per hatch should be more than enough with 1 spore to counter pheonix 1-6.
if he continues to mass pheonix hydra and infestors are okay if you were already on that tech. Corruptors are about even with pheonix too though. Also due to their range, mixed with muta micro you will dominate pheonix. Sorry my last rep of this is somewhere in the archive.
Most P tend to use stargate for early harass then quit.
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You really need to get hydras out, and try to make 5+ at once if you can, because if you have only 3-4 then 5 phoenixes can lift and kill them all without losing any.
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Switch to Terran and learn TvT. lol Useless patch ftl
User was temp banned for this post.
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Alternatively to hydras, build corruptors/queens/spores/infesotrs. Emphasis on corruptors and infestors.
As soon as you see (real) phoenix you may's well start queue'ing a queen at any hatchery that can just because he's probably going to try to run by and pick them off. So at least if you have some queue'd you'll minimize the amount of potential larva that you could lose.
As for corruptors, They don't really counter phoenix, but they stop the harassment. He is not going to want to sit around trying to lift drones while being pecked at by corruptors. Similar philosophy for spores crawlers.
Infestors fungal growth = yay no more phoenix problem.
I don't really recommend hydras, because while you're building hydras he's either getting chargelots, high templar, or colossus. And in the meantime you're losing map control and all of your overlord scouts. Also phoenix can easily handle small numbers of hydras without losing shields. So unless you have a critical mass it's not worth it.
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On September 22 2010 02:13 DuneBug wrote:
Alternatively to hydras, build corruptors/queens/spores/infesotrs. Emphasis on corruptors and infestors.
As soon as you see (real) phoenix you may's well start queue'ing a queen at any hatchery that can just because he's probably going to try to run by and pick them off. So at least if you have some queue'd you'll minimize the amount of potential larva that you could lose.
As for corruptors, They don't really counter phoenix, but they stop the harassment. He is not going to want to sit around trying to lift drones while being pecked at by corruptors. Similar philosophy for spores crawlers.
Infestors fungal growth = yay no more phoenix problem.
I don't really recommend hydras, because while you're building hydras he's either getting chargelots, high templar, or colossus. And in the meantime you're losing map control and all of your overlord scouts. Also phoenix can easily handle small numbers of hydras without losing shields. So unless you have a critical mass it's not worth it.
How does this build fight off a ground army? I mean, he could run 5 pheonixs in there, and a good protoss would probably already be on 2 bases, working on his third by the time you actually can get infestors/corrupters, especially since he had map control. I mean, by the time you actually get an army to fight the pheonix's with this build, he could have 15 stalkers at your front door. Don't give advice like this, it only confuses people more.
The best way to deal with pheonix's is hydras, like everyone has been saying. Although, you have to spread your creep pretty far into the map so hydras are actually effective once the harass is off.
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How about going and killing him? The phoenix is a very expensive unit in terms of what you forgo in order to get it... If you go Phoenix you cannot push, it's that simple. Watch your replays, if you had massed roach ling, you probably could have pushed on him and won the game right there.
I use phoenixes in every PvT I play, and trust me, they are worse than they seem to you.
1. Phoenix harass lasts about 7 seconds until they are out of energy
2. Getting an Evo chamber to get out spores usually means that you also use them for upgrades, where maybe you wouldn't have gotten them that early if you weren't harassed
3. The more phoenixes the P player gets, the easier their army is to kill with JUST SPEEDLING... Doesn't matter how many lings the Phoenixes can raise, the P army with the Phoenix is way too frail
4. Phoenixes for me are for an extremely specific purpose: shutting down muta ling before it happens, and buying me time to get my expansion and transition to high templar
5. If you get muta before P gets phoenix, the phoenix harass window has closed. Zerg can pump so many more muta than P can warp in phoenix that the bounce attack from muta more than evens the matchup against Phoenix.
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Possibly the only situation ever where I'd advocate spore crawlers, like 1 at each mineral line.
Also, dont underestimate how crappy a Toss' army is if he's using phoenixes. You might be able to just go kill him-- particularly after you get a wave of hydras.
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On September 22 2010 02:26 tehemperorer wrote:
How about going and killing him? The phoenix is a very expensive unit in terms of what you forgo in order to get it... If you go Phoenix you cannot push, it's that simple. Watch your replays, if you had massed roach ling, you probably could have pushed on him and won the game right there.
I use phoenixes in every PvT I play, and trust me, they are worse than they seem to you.
1. Phoenix harass lasts about 7 seconds until they are out of energy
2. Getting an Evo chamber to get out spores usually means that you also use them for upgrades, where maybe you wouldn't have gotten them that early if you weren't harassed
3. The more phoenixes the P player gets, the easier their army is to kill with JUST SPEEDLING... Doesn't matter how many lings the Phoenixes can raise, the P army with the Phoenix is way too frail
4. Phoenixes for me are for an extremely specific purpose: shutting down muta ling before it happens, and buying me time to get my expansion and transition to high templar
5. If you get muta before P gets phoenix, the phoenix harass window has closed. Zerg can pump so many more muta than P can warp in phoenix that the bounce attack from muta more than evens the matchup against Phoenix.
Theres something wrong with the way you construct your base. You have to wall off your front with only 1 space, and continue to produce zealots out of 1 gate. Once the wall is constructed, and you have 3 or 4 zealots, no zerg can break your door.
Secondly, don't let anyone tell you different, pheonixs > mutas, if you can micro.
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only get spores if hes going super heavy phoenix or if you're caught completely off guard by it (which shouldn't happen since you should be able to scout his stargate before a stalker is out)
get an extra queen from each hatch as soon as you see the stargate and remember to transfuse your shit, make sure you focus down the weakened ones and not just a-move your queens at them. most important thing though is DONT OVERREACT. so many zs i play against iwth phoenix i win because they make like 20 hydras as soon as they see phoenix and dont build drones. you only need like 4 or 5 hydras and 2 queens per base to make yourself phoenix proof unless he has more than 5 or 6. your hydras CAN get focused down but they kill phoenixes so fast that even if you lose 1 or 2 its not that big a deal because they'll probably be trading a phoenix for it.
you will lose drones but there's a good period for you to pump drones even if hes following up with a 4 gate that the losses shouldnt be that big a deal.
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Phoenixes take a long time to get a few up and the toss player has significantly weakened their ground game to get them. It isn't like playing against a terran player where they can still have a strong ground comp with air support. Hydras will stop phoenix harrass, spore crawlers will protect your mineral line. Keep your overlords near your hydras and keep the toss player from spreading.
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If you get a significant number of hydras, you can keep in mind that even if he's still being annoying with Phoenixes, the Toss probably doesn't have as strong of an army. It would be sort of tough to tech to Colossus while pumping of Phoenixes. There was a Day9 Daily about "just fucking kill him," which is pretty much what you do. If someone is going for something weird and doesn't have much of a meaty ground army, you're probably stronger than them.
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On September 22 2010 01:18 BlasiuS wrote:The moment you see a phoenix actually deal damage (don't be fooled by hallucinated scout phoenixes ) select all overlords and move them near your queens. Hopefully you have extended creep from main to nat so your queens can quickly move back and forth. You should have scouted the stargate with either ling or saccing an overlord, and thus made extra queens and start hydra den as soon as lair finished. But if you're caught completely unaware, put down hydra den immediately and make 1-2 extra queens. If you haven't even started lair yet, well then you have to use queens, but you're probably going to be behind.
5 phoenix or less: 3 hydra + your queen should be enough to defend each base.6+ phoenix: Continue getting hydra of course, but also get an infestor pit and add 1-2 infestors to your hydra. Anytime phoenix come near your base, fungal growth, kill with hydra. Besides that, you just have to carefully watch your mini-map and have quick reflexes with your micro.
i always make my stargate behind my mineral line so my stalkers will get ur overlord before it sees that (most people dont even go to the end of the mineral line anyway
and secondly 5 phoenix's will beat 3 hydras and a queen, if you lift off the queen and a hydra the remaining 3 will easily kill the hydra, then lift off another hydra , then kill, then the other, then kill while constantly keeping the queen up (which does the most damage and is slowest to kill then proceed to kill the queen (this is what i do)
if you get a bunch of zerglings and hydralisks and take out the army, then proceed to kill the phoenix or just rush their expo and kill it with speedlings then finish the game early before he just keeps producing phoenix's in which case he'll out macro u by far
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On September 22 2010 01:20 HuskyHawk wrote:
Ive found the best counter to phoenix harass is constant pressure, specifically roach/ling heavy pressure. I play random, so my experience on both sides of this is probably lacking in comparison to a pure z or p, but I can say I've been on both ends.
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That may be a dangerous response to Phoenix pressure because if you don't bust down his door right away, he will get out a Void Ray, which will eat your roach/ling army alive. Just a sentry or two will be enough to keep you out while the Ray charges up.
I've had Roach builds destroy my Phoenix harrass build before but it was only when roaches were being rushed (5RR). Waiting until you have a couple phoenix's knocking on your door to build roaches and attempt to pressure is probably not going to work.
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On September 22 2010 02:26 Ndugu wrote:
Possibly the only situation ever where I'd advocate spore crawlers, like 1 at each mineral line.
Also, dont underestimate how crappy a Toss' army is if he's using phoenixes. You might be able to just go kill him-- particularly after you get a wave of hydras.
Basically i do some loose build order that involves me getting my evo chamber after my roaches and lair ~ hydras and i basically just throw down a few spore crawlers so that he can't snipe my queens. Or maybe i'm just being an idiot letting him snipe my queen since i should just move my queen over to the spore with my overlords so his phoenixes cant do anything and just wait out for my hydras. I do find that getting a + 1 helps me to transition into mid game against toss, but maybe im facing noobs so i don't know.
There was this guy who opened phoenix twice against me, 1st he did a phoenix rush which i was completely unprepared for and he schooled me bad after killing 3 queens + tons of overlords to the point that i had no more AA and he just gate rushed me. Second time I stopped with crawlers + hydralisks but due to my retardedness i let him snipe a few overlords. Nevertheless since he had like 5 phoenixes his ground army was crap + he went for some sort of weird gateway + 1 carrier push which my roach hydra army decimated pretty easily. I guess i have more problems with void rays catching me off guard though, when they charge up any small groups of hydras i throw against them just melt
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i usually get a very fast evo chamber(at around 18 supply) so when i see phoenixes i just put down 2 spore crawlers at my main and nat to prevent my drones from getting harassed, then i put down 2 additional at a point where i will gather my overlords
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On September 22 2010 03:34 saefmate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2010 01:18 BlasiuS wrote:The moment you see a phoenix actually deal damage (don't be fooled by hallucinated scout phoenixes ) select all overlords and move them near your queens. Hopefully you have extended creep from main to nat so your queens can quickly move back and forth. You should have scouted the stargate with either ling or saccing an overlord, and thus made extra queens and start hydra den as soon as lair finished. But if you're caught completely unaware, put down hydra den immediately and make 1-2 extra queens. If you haven't even started lair yet, well then you have to use queens, but you're probably going to be behind.
5 phoenix or less: 3 hydra + your queen should be enough to defend each base.6+ phoenix: Continue getting hydra of course, but also get an infestor pit and add 1-2 infestors to your hydra. Anytime phoenix come near your base, fungal growth, kill with hydra. Besides that, you just have to carefully watch your mini-map and have quick reflexes with your micro. i always make my stargate behind my mineral line so my stalkers will get ur overlord before it sees that (most people dont even go to the end of the mineral line anyway.
There are other ways of scouting or sensing a stargate build, such as noticing a lack of units or seeing delayed warp gate tech.
On September 22 2010 03:34 saefmate wrote:
and secondly 5 phoenix's will beat 3 hydras and a queen, if you lift off the queen and a hydra the remaining 3 will easily kill the hydra, then lift off another hydra , then kill, then the other, then kill while constantly keeping the queen up (which does the most damage and is slowest to kill then proceed to kill the queen (this is what i do)
then move your other 3 hydras + queen from your expo to help defend? This isn't rocket science.
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I find queens into corruptors and queens healing while you make roach/ling for their ground army because either they go HTs and mass zealots or they go coloussi with zealots in anticipation of hydras and roach/ling with corruptors counter both.
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You should have scouted the stargate with either ling or saccing an overlord
Oh yes, it's that simple.
If he blocks his choke how will you see it? If he has stalkers how will you see it? Overlord is too slow and will get sniped before getting close enough. Ling can only see a small area above ramp. A smart P will just hide it in the center of his base. DOn't say overlord speed either, cause by the time you get that it will be too late.
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The most difficult part of Stargate tech is that it is actually very easy to hide. I've seen plenty of Tosses throw down three gates by his ramp and still come out with quick air, not to mention a 3 gate timing attack to accompany it.
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At 1k+ Diamond level I've found the best counter is to get 4-5 queens, a spore in each mineral line, and rush Ultralisks. You run Ling/Ultra and just protect with your queen ball. Put all your overlords half way between your main and natural, and keep your queens under the overlords. When pheonix push one base or the other move your queen mass there (don't forget to keep injecting). If he tries to lift a queen, focus the pheonix using lift and heal the lifted queen.
Consider this: If he goes Pheonix that means you have considerably more time before you have to worry about Colossus/Templar. Use that time to get to Ultralisks fast and you'll just run him over.
The other very important thing to do is keep building drones: more than usual. Just assume a few will get sniped here-and-there regardless of the spore in each mineral line and your queen ball. You can still come out ahead if he builds 5 or more Pheonix pretty easily.
Edit: I also will rush +1 armor very quickly: this makes it extremely hard for Pheonix to kill queens, and it lets you rely on Zerglings almost exclusively until Ultralisks arrive since you don't have to worry about any mass-zealot mid-game timing pushes if you can keep your armor level up with his weapons. And I will usually get out a single Infestor if he has more than 5 Pheonix as it basically will let you gibb the whole pack with your queens if you get a single good lockdown.
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simply get a few spore crawlers in your base to prevent loosing more than scouting overlords - against phoenix a static def is quite effective since they cant attack them and you are able to leave your base without getting emptied - well placed spore and spine crawlers will make your zerg live much easier
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On September 22 2010 01:19 CanucksJC wrote:
Some people in this board will actually suggest mutalisks, however, that's just asking to rape you while you bend over.
As soon as you see stargate / phoenix / voidray, get your lair tech and hydra den. Get an extra queen for defense and they just wasted resources on harrass that didn't do much. Smart overlord placing helps too.
Honestly, mutas are not that bad of an idea. You can pump mutas faster than a Protoss (on one base) can build phoenixes out of 2 Stargates. If your opponent is hard pumping phoenixes, you can really over turn a match if you pump more mutas than him and wreck him with air. I've done this successfully.
Just build extra queens and hold off the initial harass with queens and mutas. Mutas in conjunction with queens actually defend really well and you can threaten a counter harass at any time.
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you generally want about 3-4 queens when dealing with phoenixes, get them early to spread creep/transfuse. mutalisks also work decently against phoenixes (about 1:1). the trick is to mutas back and let the phoenixes chase you. as soon as they fire their first shot turn around and attack while the phoenixes are decelerating.
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I lose to this all the time... I've won against it a few times against bad players, or undercommiting/overcommiting players, but never against anyone at my own level.
The most common pheonix build from what I've played against is gateway/forge -> fast expand, add gate nr 2, and then either double stargate or stargate+robo-> colossus or stargate+council->templar tech... The pheonixes/VRs keep you pinned back in your base and force hydras while they can safely tech up to colossi or storms which decimate hydras.
Last couple of times I've just gone for corruptors (I normally go for muta ling against protoss, so also the easiest choice, as I always have spire started at this point) + roaches w/all upgrades. Hasn't worked perfect, but better than hydras. Hydra based army is suicide in zvp unless he for some dumb reason sticks to only gateway units and stargates.
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I have been practicing builds for this with my P friend for about a week now. For a while, I was just producing roaches and hydras to fend off his attack and counter him after a failed push. That was when he was going 3 warpgate, 1 stargate. He initially came up with that build to counter my muta harass that nearly brought him to tears the previous week. After he realized my army was mainly hydras, he started doing a 2wg-1 stargate-1 robo build to have colossi ready if his first push failed. The way I have adapted was this: do the regular 14 gas/14 pool build with a 21 expo. Instead of taking drones off gas once ling speed starts, I left them on and got a ~24 lair. Once that's half done, I drop a roach Warren and Evo chamber. Once the lair is ready, I got roach speed, +1 attack and if I properly scouted the stargate, then I would be getting a spore in each mineral line and following with a den. If not, I would forego the spores and just put down a hydra den asap. Right around this time is where the first push comes and lings/roaches fend it off. After his failed push, you either counter and expo, or just macro and expo. His forces will be thin and he likely will sit back as he builds another army. After I know he has spotted my hydras, I ALWAYS get a spire. 4-6 corruptors will keep his colossi away from your roach/hydra army as you push/defend an the hydras render his phoenixes useless. We are both ~1200 diamond so this may not work at higher levels. At my level, it works great. I can upload a rep when i get home today.
Edit: sorry for the lack of formatting. I will also fix this when I get on a computer.
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I'm not sure I've ever won a game against a protoss player since beta ended if i see more then 3 or 4 phoenix's. I really have nothing constructive to add except build more hydras so you can instead get incinerated to death instead of graviton beamed to death and delay your inevitable defeat a little longer.
Yea i don't like ZvP :[
edit: stormguy's post above is pretty good advice too really.
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I've started getting a fast Evo Chamber against toss now. It allows for a quick upgrade, and you can throw down a Spore Crawler at each base if you see early Phoenix harass on the way.
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Definitely hydras as they'll do really well against the gateway army. The bigger issue is if he goes from phoenix directly to colossus and attacks. That's a lot harder to hold off in my experience. What you fundamentally have to do when the phoenix's show up is not over-react. Hes probably only using them to force a tech switch. If you keep that in mind you should be alright.
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Hydras, queens (especially with infestor), corruptors, and spore ALL work.
None of them are good for being offensive though, but hydras are obviously the best choice in that sense. They do well overall vs gateway units also, but graviton beam can remove hydras in a fight of warp gate units with phoenix, so they aren't fantastic.
I've done both hydra-corruptor (can't remember what I went into, maybe hydra-roach, maybe ultra-ling) and queen builds (into ultra-ling) recently, and they both worked, although both games the players weren't as good as most I play against.
Generally I find phoenix play (often with VRs) just doesn't work well unless the zerg went mutas.
Even when i gt mroe queens or hydra, I will get at least 1 spore for each hatchery I have though, since it really helps (especially if they go DT with it)
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EPT
