The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 454

On January 02 2013 21:05 Kraelog wrote:
@Gateway expand from Protoss

This is from a while back, but wouldn't a Losira Roach/Ling timing kill a non-FFE Protoss? The reason FFE became so dominant was that it was one of the few openers that didn't die against a Roach/Ling all-in. This is off course massively map-dependant, but when you scout a Gateway expand, a good response should be to go AI R/L since its extremely hard to guess the right amount of droning if you want to play macro.

On January 02 2013 23:34 MstrJinbo wrote:
The Losira roach/ling allin is specifically designed against 3 gate expands as it hits right when they are trying to expand. A one gate expand will both have the nexus wall and canons up and gives the Protoss the ability to tech to things like voidrays. Also the maps nowadays are really bad for the roach ling allin. We have maps like cloud kingdom instead of xel naga caverns and Metalopolis. The Protoss is also expecting your third hatch so when they don't see it they will know you are up to something and prepare accordingly.

On January 03 2013 00:40 Henk wrote:
Although this may be a weird question, I seem a little bit lost in the engagement in lategame ZvT, after they went mech. Vikings kite my corruptors and broodlords, and tanks destroy my infestors when I try to get them into fungal range. How do I engage this? Note, engaging mostly happens next to a planetary (4th base on Daybreak for example).

Also, when playing against mech, should I rush to 4 bases - 80 drones, because they'll have to wait for at least 140-160 supply before pushing? Or can they hit a timing long before that?

On January 03 2013 02:51 Azoryen wrote:
Question:
What's a good way to adapt a build when the opponent messes up with it (e.g. he kills some drones with harassment, he forces a lot of lings, spores, etc.
At first I was using times like 7:00: build a roach warren, but timed references very easily become useless.
So I tried changing my references to worker counts, which is much better, but still gets messed up sometimes.

I feel this is more of a problem for Zerg, because our builds must consider larva and the fact that we train units/army from that same larva, which means we don't always have the same economy at a given time or a given supply.

I'd like to know how good players deal with this, since they seem to always keep a very good balance in their builds no matter how much they get harassed and need to adapt.

Does it even make sense to have any references at all as Zerg, since maybe it's better to just be flexible enough to turn defense into offense and I feel I don't do this enough because after I defend I'm usually trying to find my way back to my build.

On January 02 2013 14:40 Defenestrator wrote:

While Catz isn't quite messing around with this build (he is trying to see if it really is viable), I wouldn't exactly recommend it either. 4hatch before pool suffers a lot economically due to the investment in hatcheries. The tradeoff is that you get a ton of larva later on. However, getting gas right after pool is probably not the way to play 4hatch before pool because you're already trying to catch up economically to other openers; taking gas would only set you further behind.

You can toy around with it, but you will die to a ton of stupid shit if you go 4hatch before pool, and may even end up behind in most circumstances unless you really know what you're doing. Not sure of your level, but if you're below masters I would say hold off on trying this until Catz refines it enough (if he's able to) and explains how to hold off various forms of aggression and whatnot.

On January 03 2013 02:51 Azoryen wrote:
Question:
What's a good way to adapt a build when the opponent messes up with it (e.g. he kills some drones with harassment, he forces a lot of lings, spores, etc.
At first I was using times like 7:00: build a roach warren, but timed references very easily become useless.
So I tried changing my references to worker counts, which is much better, but still gets messed up sometimes.

I feel this is more of a problem for Zerg, because our builds must consider larva and the fact that we train units/army from that same larva, which means we don't always have the same economy at a given time or a given supply.

I'd like to know how good players deal with this, since they seem to always keep a very good balance in their builds no matter how much they get harassed and need to adapt.

Does it even make sense to have any references at all as Zerg, since maybe it's better to just be flexible enough to turn defense into offense and I feel I don't do this enough because after I defend I'm usually trying to find my way back to my build.

On January 03 2013 03:33 Henk wrote:


Well for example in ZvZ: Always counter attack; always. When your opponent, in the early game, makes (20 or so) lings and runs by and kills ~8 drones and you then clean up his attack with your spawning lings, use those lings to counter attack. You may not kill a single worker, in fact you don't even have to commit to the attack. Just by knowing your lings are coming, he is forced to make units instead of drones.

Another example in ZvP: When a toss goes stargate expand, it's easy to just get stressed out by defending the voidray/phoenix, building some spores, microing queens, rebuilding drones. However you HAVE to keep denying his 3rd base. The protoss uses this build because he wants to get a safe 3rd by keeping you under pressure. Due to all his air units, your ground forces should deal with his little groundforce easily and push it back into his natural while you deny his 3rd.

On January 03 2013 04:11 Azoryen wrote:

Thx, those are great tips that I'll definitely try to apply as I do need to be more agressive at times.
However, my main question is still unanswered: how to adapt the build to these sort of delays and what references to use for when to build stuff?
Let me use your ZvZ example and suppose I'm doing a muta build.
He does that attack and forces a lot of lings from me. These ling/bane wars can last a long time before things settle down.
So when things do settle and players return to their builds, any timed references like: lair at 7 minutes are now useless.
So what can I use as a reference to know when to build stuff? Supply is also not very acurate, since I can have, say, 15 supply of units left from previous battles.

This is why I find build orders like: 'take your 3rd at 40 supply' or 'lair at 7:30' not very useful.
That's how most builds are written, but that's not how good players think, I believe...

On January 03 2013 04:07 Natalya wrote:
Are you trolling? With 4 hatch you will have more larvae than with ANY hatch-pool or pool-hatch opening, and more mineral patches to mine from (reaching oversaturation later). You never float idle larvae either, all of those larvae can be used instantly. Basically if you want to have the most economical build, you make as much hatches as possible before pool...
Queens allow a boost of production, ofcourse, but remember you have to make a pool before your first queen, which makes hatcheries a better way to increase your production than queens.

On January 03 2013 04:11 Azoryen wrote:
This is why I find build orders like: 'take your 3rd at 40 supply' or 'lair at 7:30' not very useful.
That's how most builds are written, but that's not how good players think, I believe...

On January 03 2013 04:11 Azoryen wrote:

Thx, those are great tips that I'll definitely try to apply as I do need to be more agressive at times.
However, my main question is still unanswered: how to adapt the build to these sort of delays and what references to use for when to build stuff?
Let me use your ZvZ example and suppose I'm doing a muta build.
He does that attack and forces a lot of lings from me. These ling/bane wars can last a long time before things settle down.
So when things do settle and players return to their builds, any timed references like: lair at 7 minutes are now useless.
So what can I use as a reference to know when to build stuff? Supply is also not very acurate, since I can have, say, 15 supply of units left from previous battles.

This is why I find build orders like: 'take your 3rd at 40 supply' or 'lair at 7:30' not very useful.
That's how most builds are written, but that's not how good players think, I believe...

On January 03 2013 04:52 Defenestrator wrote:

Not trolling, most of what I said comes from when I watched Catz do his 4hatch before pool. According to him and his supply benchmarks, it sets you back initially economically due to the investment in hatcheries; iirc, it's weaker vs some early 4gate +1 or 7gate pressure but pretty strong against immo/sentry (because you're caught up in drones by that point and have a ton of larva). So basically it is the most "economic," but this depends on when you measure it. It's not the most economic 6:00 in, but is 9:00 in. Depending on when your opponent chooses to attack you, this can be to your benefit or not. Don't take my word for it either, this is roughly what Catz has said on his stream.

On January 03 2013 06:03 Azoryen wrote:
Thx a lot for all the answers.
@Asgorath, that's exactly what I was looking for, thx for taking the time to post the links.