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On September 28 2012 23:44 Lavalamp799 wrote:
Hello, I had a question regarding ZvP. Whenever you are playing against a protoss and plan to open up hatch first and stay on 2 base, what do you do if they block the hatch with a pylon? Should you just not even go hatch first again a protoss, and always opt for the pool? Or maybe try to go hatch first but when you get down there and they have it blocked with a pylon, make a pool right away? How would you transitition if you did the later, just keep making drones and then 2 sets of lings? I was also wondering if it is even viable to stay on 2 base for that long since it seems almost every single protoss is just opening up FFE and they would effectively be on the same if not better economy as you. Maybe if you plan on staying on 2 base you would have to try and bust them, otherwise you will just end up behind on economy, correct?
Not exactly sure why you would not want 3 bases? Any specific strategies you've got planned?
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On September 28 2012 23:44 Lavalamp799 wrote:
Hello, I had a question regarding ZvP. Whenever you are playing against a protoss and plan to open up hatch first and stay on 2 base, what do you do if they block the hatch with a pylon? Should you just not even go hatch first again a protoss, and always opt for the pool? Or maybe try to go hatch first but when you get down there and they have it blocked with a pylon, make a pool right away? How would you transitition if you did the later, just keep making drones and then 2 sets of lings? I was also wondering if it is even viable to stay on 2 base for that long since it seems almost every single protoss is just opening up FFE and they would effectively be on the same if not better economy as you. Maybe if you plan on staying on 2 base you would have to try and bust them, otherwise you will just end up behind on economy, correct?
I don't think hatch first against protoss is a good idea, they can just cannon your natural and win. Try the standard 3 hatch before gas opening build order.
For some reason I can't find a link to an up to date description of the build, but the general rough timing is :
14 pool
16 hatch (if it is indeed being blocked make an overlord and 4 lings to clear the pylon)
get your first queen as soon as possible in the main, inject and send to natural while your second queen is made right after the first one.
24 hatch at 3rd
6:00 : double gas
7:00 roach warren and evo chamber, sacrifice an overlord into the protoss main
Depending on your playstyle and what you scout you can go upgrade, speed or lair first. Generally no gas at the protoss natural after 6:30 means warpgate agression right now, so get speed, a third gas and the roach warren and pump units. You need roaches to hold this. Send a ling to the protoss third in case this is actually a weird fast third build from him.
Double gas means you can skip the roach warren if you want to go ling infestor and also a teching protoss and no agression right away. Which means you can delay speed and/or the upgrade and pump drones, but getting lair first in this case is a good thing to get infestors right away against stargate and immortal sentry pushes. It's common to grab two more gas when you start your lair, as well as a macro hatch before the lair finishes.
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You can definitely go hatch first vs protoss, holding off a cannon rush isnt as hard as most zergs make it out be. Likewise, if you scout on 13 you can counter with a proxy hatch in base, etc etc. You can pull off 3 hatch before pool just fine once you understand how you should be responding.
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On September 29 2012 01:12 whatevername wrote:
You can definitely go hatch first vs protoss, holding off a cannon rush isnt as hard as most zergs make it out be. Likewise, if you scout on 13 you can counter with a proxy hatch in base, etc etc. You can pull off 3 hatch before pool just fine once you understand how you should be responding.
I fail to see how 3 hatch before pool could ever work against FFE. Do you have replays?
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3 hatch before pool really is useless because you're missing out on injects. 14P 15-16H is actually better eco wise, and you won't lose to early aggression right away.
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On September 29 2012 01:49 Henk wrote:
3 hatch before pool really is useless because you're missing out on injects. 14P 15-16H is actually better eco wise, and you won't lose to early aggression right away. No, you get out quite a few more drones with 3 hatch before pool, and you wont lose to early aggression with that either.
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First may I say, let's not bicker or argue in here.
3 Hatch before pool vs FFE is definitely not standard, but it is doable.
As for defending cannon rushes if anyone is curious, I highly recommend this video. + Show Spoiler +
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If nothing happens, then
pool first < hatch first < 3hatch before pool
economically speaking.
But since you need to pull drones to prevent pylons/cannons, the above isn't necessarily true. I don't think anyone has done precise math on this matter. It probably depends on how many drones you need to pull for how long. Also, ladder players like us need to pull 1 more drone than pros because there is no neutral depot.
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Catz has done the math thousands of times, if not simply on the basis of repetitively doing it. As he said in the video, he crushes cannon rushes. I never see him come out behind. We on ladder may fail to do it as well, but that just makes it a strategy one should practice a lot.
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Does anyone know IdrAs buildorder (somewhat) when he goes early mutas ZvZ? It seems like a really strong build, but i can never seem to get the right timings myself.
What im mainly looking for is when to take lair, 4 gasses, 3rd hatch, etc.
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How do you guys generally approach Cloud Kingdom? Since this map was released, I've always thought it was a terrible Z map. There're just chokes everywhere, flanking is very difficult due to chokes/long run-arounds, the 4th is on the low-ground so is easy to siege. Mutas are bad and can get trapped. I guess it's ok for BL/infestor play, but until that stage in the game it just seems very tough. The simple compensation of multiple paths on the map doesn't seem to make up for the rest of these things... on most other maps you don't need multiple paths since it's more open anyway.
How do people defend early-game vs allins at their nat/3rd on this map? And where/how do you defend the 4th?
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Is there any recent replays of symbol playing zvp?
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On September 29 2012 03:53 Defenestrator wrote:
How do you guys generally approach Cloud Kingdom? Since this map was released, I've always thought it was a terrible Z map. There're just chokes everywhere, flanking is very difficult due to chokes/long run-arounds, the 4th is on the low-ground so is easy to siege. Mutas are bad and can get trapped. I guess it's ok for BL/infestor play, but until that stage in the game it just seems very tough. The simple compensation of multiple paths on the map doesn't seem to make up for the rest of these things... on most other maps you don't need multiple paths since it's more open anyway.
How do people defend early-game vs allins at their nat/3rd on this map? And where/how do you defend the 4th?
It may be relevant to talk about which matchup's all in you're trying to defend (and which particular all in).
To comment on extremely general advice (assuming ZvT or ZvP):
-Creep spread becomes very important. Being able to get a good surround in an open position (usually down by the 4th, or somehow flanking them in the alleyway by the third) is very important, especially vs siege tanks or some immortal sentry play. -In any scenario, you need to be able to see the attack coming, and then engage it in the open before they are able to set up a fortified position (sieging, pre-splitting, proxy pylon finishing) in a choky position where they can reinforce from. You want to be able to quickly surround them before the situation snowballs and you lose do to an inability to get a favorable engagement or crush their reinforcements. For ZvT this means good ling bling surrounds with queens picking off hellions/medivacs, ZvP this means a good roach ling surround and having other lings focus fire any proxy probe/pylon.
-If chokes are that much of a problem, set aside all available forces to break down the rocks, everywhere. This makes engaging and movement a little easier.
-Cloud Kingdom has lots of attack angles, so even if there are a lot of chokes, it is easy to have a separate control group of stuffs to flank them from another position and get a surround like that.
Assuming ZvZ...
The only "balanced" MU is the mirror one, right?
-Just throw down a couple of spines (spores and banes if muta ling). Whatever his composition is, you usually have something similar to counter it (only exceptions would be a muta ling or a ling infestor composition, both of which need heavy spining anyway). Just be sure to have the spines to turn any engagement in your favor, and pre-split.
-Breaking down rocks only becomes relevant once infestors are out, until then the "clumping" the mid-map chokes provide can only be abused to engage roach/ling in chokes.
-Spread overlords to the alleyway by the third to scout ling/bling runbys.
Hope this helped 
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On September 27 2012 02:34 Alg wrote:Hi everyone! Platinum Zerg player here. I am completely clueless in ZvT mid-late game. I try to play ling-infestor-ultra-BL style, but even if i can get ahead in the beginning or early midgame, i just fall behind after hive tech. There was a game where I managed to almost completely kill his economy early with 8-9 roaches, then killed his 3rd and denied expos down the way, but he just pumped out hellion/thor/viking with some banshees and I just couldn't kill him, then ran out of gas and couldnt hold his push... Replay: http://sc2replays.jmk.hu/index.php?mod=replay&replay=743Maybe I need to expand more agressively, but again, how do you kill that army? Also, I have a lot of problems with Terran midgame 2base bio pushes - just pure MMM, sometimes with a few tanks and i just cant hold it with ling-infestor... Any help is much appreciated!
Follow-up note:
First, thanks for the replies.
Second: some remarks, maybe it will help someone in a similar position:
I just had a 40 minute ZvT against a diamond terran, and it felt so much better than before. I think my biggest problem was the very late third - it feels so much easier when I take that third a bit after my 2 additional queens finish. Another thing i noiced was the macro hatch - an early macro hatch helps a lot when i play ling style (and my inject are not perfect...).
Then, as i get infestors, i can start to be a bit more agressive with ling-infestor - before i just tried to defend my 3-4 bases, never leaving my half of the map before tier3, leaving the T too much time/space to prepare and harass.
Replay: http://sc2replays.jmk.hu/index.php?mod=replay&replay=744
Now i have to improve my micro and positioning. Also I must not stop BL production after the first attack. I think those two lost me this game, but I enjoyed this one pretty much At least I can see the way to victory now! Thanks guys!
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On September 29 2012 04:42 Andromedan wrote:
To comment on extremely general advice (assuming ZvT or ZvP):
-Creep spread becomes very important. Being able to get a good surround in an open position (usually down by the 4th, or somehow flanking them in the alleyway by the third) is very important, especially vs siege tanks or some immortal sentry play. -In any scenario, you need to be able to see the attack coming, and then engage it in the open before they are able to set up a fortified position (sieging, pre-splitting, proxy pylon finishing) in a choky position where they can reinforce from. You want to be able to quickly surround them before the situation snowballs and you lose do to an inability to get a favorable engagement or crush their reinforcements. For ZvT this means good ling bling surrounds with queens picking off hellions/medivacs, ZvP this means a good roach ling surround and having other lings focus fire any proxy probe/pylon.
-If chokes are that much of a problem, set aside all available forces to break down the rocks, everywhere. This makes engaging and movement a little easier.
-Cloud Kingdom has lots of attack angles, so even if there are a lot of chokes, it is easy to have a separate control group of stuffs to flank them from another position and get a surround like that.
Thanks, Andromedan.
My main concern is defending/flanking the 3rd vs 2-base allins (especially zvp). The problem here is that usually when these timings hit, I'm in drone mode until fairly late, so I don't have a tremendous amount of units out to position for a flank, and flanking from the alley at the 3rd seems pretty tough. On other maps this tends not to be as much of a problem since it's easier to flank.
Also, where do you first spread your creep? Is it towards the alley at the 3rd or down the ramp of the 3rd?
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On September 29 2012 05:06 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 04:42 Andromedan wrote:
To comment on extremely general advice (assuming ZvT or ZvP):
-Creep spread becomes very important. Being able to get a good surround in an open position (usually down by the 4th, or somehow flanking them in the alleyway by the third) is very important, especially vs siege tanks or some immortal sentry play. -In any scenario, you need to be able to see the attack coming, and then engage it in the open before they are able to set up a fortified position (sieging, pre-splitting, proxy pylon finishing) in a choky position where they can reinforce from. You want to be able to quickly surround them before the situation snowballs and you lose do to an inability to get a favorable engagement or crush their reinforcements. For ZvT this means good ling bling surrounds with queens picking off hellions/medivacs, ZvP this means a good roach ling surround and having other lings focus fire any proxy probe/pylon.
-If chokes are that much of a problem, set aside all available forces to break down the rocks, everywhere. This makes engaging and movement a little easier.
-Cloud Kingdom has lots of attack angles, so even if there are a lot of chokes, it is easy to have a separate control group of stuffs to flank them from another position and get a surround like that. Also, where do you first spread your creep? Is it towards the alley at the 3rd or down the ramp of the 3rd?
I never thought much of ZvP early game creep spread....until I started playing Protoss.
Spread creep through the alley at your third, and you'll have a MUCH easier time dealing with sentry/immortal timings. Speedlings on creep...ugh it's a terrible thought. Not sure if you can get speedroaches in time, but them on creep is also scary to attack into. Creep in general is just scary 
I say don't creep down the ramp because, well, you don't need to. You have defender's advantage at the top of the ramp anyway, and it's wider than the alley I believe.
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Got a question that I would prefer if only 1300+ masters answer.
Matchup: ZvZ
Enemy Tech: 2 base muta into expo with mass muta/bane/ling
My Tech: 3 base roach with double ups into festor/roach
I've heard from many that supposedly infestors have made mutas in zvz kind of obsolete. The problem I have is that whenever the opponent goes mutas into macro, I can't do a damned thing. The first muta move-out is always a surprise. They'll suddenly show up at my third and I have no spores or anything. I immediately start 3-4 spores in my main and natural just in case they try to poke in there and kill some workers, but I usually end up losing everything I put over at the third base. My infestors never seem to be ready in time for that first move-out of mutas since I spent resources on getting +1/+1 started as well as roach speed. There's just not enough gas to do it all it seems.
After that, its very touch-and-go. Usually involving them somehow getting drones in their third while simultaneously making a lot of army. Sometimes they suddenly show up again with a really big force of mutas and lings and sometimes they don't make any more mutas other than the initial 8-12 and sometimes they show up with a ton more. Even if I see it coming with my changeling scouts, I'm almost always at a complete loss on how to counter either one with just fungals if they're not a moron and fly with a spread pattern.
Anyone who can provide very specific timings and explanations of how to use the infestor/roach to counter mutas would be greatly appreciated. This feels like the last unturned stone I have to overcome in ZvZ in order to be decent at the matchup. I'm assuming there MUST be another route other than just "doing mutas back at him".
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On September 29 2012 06:15 sCCrooked wrote:
Got a question that I would prefer if only 1300+ masters answer.
Matchup: ZvZ
Enemy Tech: 2 base muta into expo with mass muta/bane/ling
My Tech: 3 base roach with double ups into festor/roach
I've heard from many that supposedly infestors have made mutas in zvz kind of obsolete. The problem I have is that whenever the opponent goes mutas into macro, I can't do a damned thing. The first muta move-out is always a surprise. They'll suddenly show up at my third and I have no spores or anything. I immediately start 3-4 spores in my main and natural just in case they try to poke in there and kill some workers, but I usually end up losing everything I put over at the third base. My infestors never seem to be ready in time for that first move-out of mutas since I spent resources on getting +1/+1 started as well as roach speed. There's just not enough gas to do it all it seems.
After that, its very touch-and-go. Usually involving them somehow getting drones in their third while simultaneously making a lot of army. Sometimes they suddenly show up again with a really big force of mutas and lings and sometimes they don't make any more mutas other than the initial 8-12 and sometimes they show up with a ton more. Even if I see it coming with my changeling scouts, I'm almost always at a complete loss on how to counter either one with just fungals if they're not a moron and fly with a spread pattern.
Anyone who can provide very specific timings and explanations of how to use the infestor/roach to counter mutas would be greatly appreciated. This feels like the last unturned stone I have to overcome in ZvZ in order to be decent at the matchup. I'm assuming there MUST be another route other than just "doing mutas back at him".
1. scout his gases and 3rd base timing. he can be tricky and get 2 gas at natural and only 1 in main and do some sort of 2 base roach ling all in but since you go roaches yourself you should be fine even for that scenario. so if you see 2 gas natural around 44 supply and no 3rd base he will lots of times go muta (or in a few cases ling infestor).
2. either play ling (bling) infestor (microintensive if he decides to ling bling attack your 3rd base) or go roach queen in case of 2 gas natural and no 3rd base. just go up to 6 queens will be enough to fight of the first few mutas and will stall for spores. but get a single spore per base blindly around 9:00 against 2 base fast 2 gas natural.
3. block off natural as good as possible. if he does a huge ling (bling) muta all in of 2 base a wall off at your entrance helps out a lot to not let him get in your natural.
4. either get fast infestors but be prepared to lose your 3rd: wall off will help defend at least 2 bases until your infestors are out. even if you lose your 3rd to his all in you will be ahead in tech.
OR: dont get superfast infestors while going 3rd base. you cant get enough roaches queens and spores AND infestors since you wont have enough drones to support both mineral and gas income. roach queen spore is basically safe vs everything he can throw at you from 2 base so try to get minerals over gas first. you will overcome his gas income fast because you have access to 5. and 6. gas that he wont. think 3 gas will do it until you are safe. if you go for roaches i prefer going roach queen spore and go for delayed infestors since i dont like going for fast 3rd and fast infestors and gambling on whether he attacks me or not.
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4. either get fast infestors but be prepared to lose your 3rd: wall off will help defend at least 2 bases until your infestors are out. even if you lose your 3rd to his all in you will be ahead in tech.
OR: dont get superfast infestors while going 3rd base. you cant get enough roaches queens and spores AND infestors since you wont have enough drones to support both mineral and gas income. roach queen spore is basically safe vs everything he can throw at you from 2 base so try to get minerals over gas first. you will overcome his gas income fast because you have access to 5. and 6. gas that he wont. think 3 gas will do it until you are safe. if you go for roaches i prefer going roach queen spore and go for delayed infestors since i dont like going for fast 3rd and fast infestors and gambling on whether he attacks me or not.
When you delay the infestors, when do you actually start them? When you saturate the third? Or is some other trigger?
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EPT
