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On September 26 2012 03:02 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 21:21 NeonFox wrote:On September 25 2012 20:38 gronnelg wrote:On September 25 2012 17:31 blade55555 wrote:On September 24 2012 19:11 gronnelg wrote:
In lategame zvt:
What factors helps you deside to ultras or brood lords? It's map dependent. For example on a map like cloud kingdom I think broodlords are far stronger just because of the chokes which makes broodlords strong (with infestor support obviously). I will always have a ultra cavern though to transition into ultras if I feel it would benefit me and vice versa. On a map like daybreak I think going either ultra or broods first is up to you, whirlwind for example I think would almost be a pure ultra map just because broodlords are so slow (obviously that map isn't in the map pool on ladder, just saying!). Thanks blade! So choky maps = broods Open maps = ultras. Someone else said that if you see the terran getting aggressive, so you won't have time to get broods, get ultras. Map and relative safety. Are there other factors besides these two? Unit composition and production facilities, sac a few lings to see his composition and an overseer to see if he has extra starports in his main or the number of techlab barracks. Everyone says this, but I really don't think it is the case anymore, at least not a major factor. Every decent Terran prepares for the Hive transition, every single one. It's similar to how zerg has to prepare for the midgame transition that Terran does, whether it will be mech or bio, even if a zerg gets caught off-guard by it, they run home and rebuild with the correct comp. Seeing a ton of roaches doesn't stop a Terran from meching, that's silly, it's Terran's gameplan choice and it dictates terms to the Zerg; likewise, seeing vikings already coming out doesn't stop me from getting BLs on Cloud, the BLs dictate what Terran can do regardless of preparation. So in sum, I disagree with neon, I still think it's primarily map-dependent, and blade is apparently in agreement.
I'm not saying it's not map dependent, I'm saying that if the terran made the mistake of having extra starports because you had a muta midgame and he assumes broodlords at hive, or if he is late on either techlab barracks or starports why would you not exploit that?
It would be dumb to scout, see he has no extra starports yet, and not exploit that fact.
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On September 26 2012 02:31 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 02:19 WellCrap wrote:
Guys I still need zvp help badly, It's like I just cant win. I keep dieing to all ins. If you want help, I suggest being more specific. There are a number of Protoss all ins. Which one is killing you?
8 gate all ins and 7 gate robo, I scout it in time and make large amounts of units(lings and roaches) but i still get raped.
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Hey guys this is atomicfy again and i hav another question.
i am not sure if this q has been answered be4 so i will be asking again (srry >_<)
i have been listening to ppl's suggestions and i have been using the strategies succesfully.
howver the thing that i want to know is is infester viable or ultra or broodlords? idk which one to go
for. i used to go for ultra and ling push. plz help me ;;; ty <3
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On September 26 2012 04:38 ATOMICfy wrote:
Hey guys this is atomicfy again and i hav another question.
i am not sure if this q has been answered be4 so i will be asking again (srry >_<)
i have been listening to ppl's suggestions and i have been using the strategies succesfully.
howver the thing that i want to know is is infester viable or ultra or as broodlords? idk which one to go
for. i used to go for ultra and ling push. plz help me ;;; ty <3
Infestors make both ultras and broodlords better so they are of course viable. You don't really choose between infestors and the t3 units. They work best together.
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On September 26 2012 04:03 WellCrap wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 02:31 MstrJinbo wrote:On September 26 2012 02:19 WellCrap wrote:
Guys I still need zvp help badly, It's like I just cant win. I keep dieing to all ins. If you want help, I suggest being more specific. There are a number of Protoss all ins. Which one is killing you? 8 gate all ins and 7 gate robo, I scout it in time and make large amounts of units(lings and roaches) but i still get raped.
No replay makes it harder to judge but : do you drone your 3rd at all? do you have carapace level 1 and/or 2? Is your positionning good, inject timings, creep spread, because you probable won't have roach speed for a 8gate + 1 all in...
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On September 26 2012 04:03 WellCrap wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 02:31 MstrJinbo wrote:On September 26 2012 02:19 WellCrap wrote:
Guys I still need zvp help badly, It's like I just cant win. I keep dieing to all ins. If you want help, I suggest being more specific. There are a number of Protoss all ins. Which one is killing you? 8 gate all ins and 7 gate robo, I scout it in time and make large amounts of units(lings and roaches) but i still get raped.
7 gate robo sounds like the immortal sentry allin. There was actually a really good discussion on this recently. Here is the link
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360647
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On September 26 2012 05:10 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 04:03 WellCrap wrote:On September 26 2012 02:31 MstrJinbo wrote:On September 26 2012 02:19 WellCrap wrote:
Guys I still need zvp help badly, It's like I just cant win. I keep dieing to all ins. If you want help, I suggest being more specific. There are a number of Protoss all ins. Which one is killing you? 8 gate all ins and 7 gate robo, I scout it in time and make large amounts of units(lings and roaches) but i still get raped. 7 gate robo sounds like the immortal sentry allin. There was actually a really good discussion on this recently. Here is the link http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360647
Its not really a sentry all in its a 2-4 sentrys and lots of stalkers and Immortals.
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On September 26 2012 04:38 ATOMICfy wrote:
Hey guys this is atomicfy again and i hav another question.
i am not sure if this q has been answered be4 so i will be asking again (srry >_<)
i have been listening to ppl's suggestions and i have been using the strategies succesfully.
howver the thing that i want to know is is infester viable or ultra or broodlords? idk which one to go
for. i used to go for ultra and ling push. plz help me ;;; ty <3
Infestors are recommended in every match up. The choice between ultra or broodlords however is really dependent on your kind of playstyle. I personally prefer the broodlords because I think Ultralisk are just horrendous, but there is one thing you would need to remind yourself, if you go broodlords, you will need corrupters. This is also needed in every matchup, altough less in ZvZ. I personally think there is way more power if you go broodlords and handle them correctly, you can kite for example and force battles and with the right control they are in my eyes the strongest unit in the game. The Ultralisk however is somewhat of a different story, sure Stephano uses them all the time but I'd think he would be a lot better if he used broodlords. Ultralisk can for example be kited, they can get stuck behind basically every fucking thing and last but not least, if you attack with Ultralisk, there is no point where you can say fuck this i'm going back, which is easier to say as with broodlords. I would recommend broods but hey, what suits you best?
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On September 26 2012 06:56 Rk0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 04:38 ATOMICfy wrote:
Hey guys this is atomicfy again and i hav another question.
i am not sure if this q has been answered be4 so i will be asking again (srry >_<)
i have been listening to ppl's suggestions and i have been using the strategies succesfully.
howver the thing that i want to know is is infester viable or ultra or broodlords? idk which one to go
for. i used to go for ultra and ling push. plz help me ;;; ty <3 Infestors are recommended in every match up. The choice between ultra or broodlords however is really dependent on your kind of playstyle. I personally prefer the broodlords because I think Ultralisk are just horrendous, but there is one thing you would need to remind yourself, if you go broodlords, you will need corrupters. This is also needed in every matchup, altough less in ZvZ. I personally think there is way more power if you go broodlords and handle them correctly, you can kite for example and force battles and with the right control they are in my eyes the strongest unit in the game. The Ultralisk however is somewhat of a different story, sure Stephano uses them all the time but I'd think he would be a lot better if he used broodlords. Ultralisk can for example be kited, they can get stuck behind basically every fucking thing and last but not least, if you attack with Ultralisk, there is no point where you can say fuck this i'm going back, which is easier to say as with broodlords. I would recommend broods but hey, what suits you best?
The thing that ultralisks have and that broodlords lack is mobility.
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On September 26 2012 06:23 WellCrap wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 05:10 MstrJinbo wrote:On September 26 2012 04:03 WellCrap wrote:On September 26 2012 02:31 MstrJinbo wrote:On September 26 2012 02:19 WellCrap wrote:
Guys I still need zvp help badly, It's like I just cant win. I keep dieing to all ins. If you want help, I suggest being more specific. There are a number of Protoss all ins. Which one is killing you? 8 gate all ins and 7 gate robo, I scout it in time and make large amounts of units(lings and roaches) but i still get raped. 7 gate robo sounds like the immortal sentry allin. There was actually a really good discussion on this recently. Here is the link http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360647 Its not really a sentry all in its a 2-4 sentrys and lots of stalkers and Immortals.
So its a late-all in AND it has little forcefields
Max out on roach ling more on the ling, start baiting forcefields when he leaves the base. Dont get greedy, just focus pumping units
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Is there a way to really punish a protoss that takes a fast third, like 5:30 or 6:00 min-ish where the zerg just opens standard wih the fast 3 expos?
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On September 27 2012 01:02 MiTakko wrote:
Is there a way to really punish a protoss that takes a fast third, like 5:30 or 6:00 min-ish where the zerg just opens standard wih the fast 3 expos?
The best way to 'punish' it is to get up to 70 drones as fast as possible. With a third that quickly there is no possible way that the protoss will be able to put on pressure past a 4gate, which is incredibly risky and if it fails the toss will likely die to any follow up aggression. A zerg can always be greedier than a protoss, so use that to your advantage.
Playing very aggressively to try and counter act the protoss being greedy can work, however it is risky, because if the protoss doesn't get much tech and just defense then he will likely hold and get an eco advantage.
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Hi everyone!
Platinum Zerg player here.
I am completely clueless in ZvT mid-late game. I try to play ling-infestor-ultra-BL style, but even if i can get ahead in the beginning or early midgame, i just fall behind after hive tech.
There was a game where I managed to almost completely kill his economy early with 8-9 roaches, then killed his 3rd and denied expos down the way, but he just pumped out hellion/thor/viking with some banshees and I just couldn't kill him, then ran out of gas and couldnt hold his push... Replay:
http://sc2replays.jmk.hu/index.php?mod=replay&replay=743
Maybe I need to expand more agressively, but again, how do you kill that army?
Also, I have a lot of problems with Terran midgame 2base bio pushes - just pure MMM, sometimes with a few tanks and i just cant hold it with ling-infestor...
Any help is much appreciated!
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On September 27 2012 02:34 Alg wrote:Hi everyone! Platinum Zerg player here. I am completely clueless in ZvT mid-late game. I try to play ling-infestor-ultra-BL style, but even if i can get ahead in the beginning or early midgame, i just fall behind after hive tech. There was a game where I managed to almost completely kill his economy early with 8-9 roaches, then killed his 3rd and denied expos down the way, but he just pumped out hellion/thor/viking with some banshees and I just couldn't kill him, then ran out of gas and couldnt hold his push... Replay: http://sc2replays.jmk.hu/index.php?mod=replay&replay=743Maybe I need to expand more agressively, but again, how do you kill that army? Also, I have a lot of problems with Terran midgame 2base bio pushes - just pure MMM, sometimes with a few tanks and i just cant hold it with ling-infestor... Any help is much appreciated!
I can't look at the replay currently but I can provide some help.
Hellion thor viking is pretty good at dealing with infestor brood lord as the hellions clean up the broodlings, thors can tank fungals and deal with clumped air units well, and vikings deal with broods. So he cleans up your army with that comp, the best thing to do then is just mass roaches. Save up larva and when your army starts dying you start R'ing. A huge roach swell will screw up a terran player without tanks so hard that they'll probably just die.
The MMM heavy pushes with a few tanks work against infestor ling because the tanks can zone out infestors, even in small numbers. The best counter to a bio heavy force with a weak tank count is ling baneling. A strong ling bane arc with a surround from the back can absolutely destroy such a push. It will set your infestor count back slightly however if it an all in then surviving is the highest priority. Banelings counter MMM. Remember that.
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As a masters zerg, Ive got a few pointers
Having watched the game, the most obvious thing is the amount of time spend with larvae sitting there while you had the money to be doing stuff, but all you can do to improve that i feel is playing more games.
As for losing that game specifically I feel like the huge muta loss when you spent so many resources on them was pretty hurtful, if you keep them alive then you can do things like kill the banshees etc that kept killing expos and also once you see the thors leave the base, then you should try to harass in the base and camp the production facilities to stop reinforcements.
If you delay him long enough then it gives you the chance to keep building up your BL count, you would've crushed that first thor/tank/hellion push much easier with 3-4 more broods. Also, infestors, you should be making more of them for sure, if not for neural parasite, then just try to use them for infested terrans.
I still felt like you could've won until you made the hydras as well, just don't do it, especially when they have that many blue flame hellions with 3-3 and you just have the Armour, the roachs and hydras where just money dumps as they didn't have any upgrades and where just getting shut down by the thors n hellions, there were a few other things but these r just a few pointers towards improving it, if you want more detail feel free to PM me
Even at the end of the game tbh, you still couldve won, you were mining he wasnt at all, a few infestors can deal with banshee hellion super effective and you had the spines to take care of the thors at your mining base
Jooosh
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Noob question:
Can I use the ZvT build with 4 queens and be safe against ANY 1base all-in from terran?
It seems good to have the extra queens against banshes or marauder/hellions.
But what about bio pushes, like 3rax stim?
It feels like in that case it would be better to have extra 12 lings instead.
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On September 27 2012 06:31 Azoryen wrote:
Noob question:
Can I use the ZvT build with 4 queens and be safe against ANY 1base all-in from terran?
It seems good to have the extra queens against banshes or marauder/hellions.
But what about bio pushes, like 3rax stim?
It feels like in that case it would be better to have extra 12 lings instead.
The 12 lings don't help as much. If I don't see the Terran expand. I'll start adding an evo chamber and spines. Generally you will see a tech lab barracks for the three Rax timing too. He'd have to hit before stim to get there before banelings though.
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On September 27 2012 06:31 Azoryen wrote:
Noob question:
Can I use the ZvT build with 4 queens and be safe against ANY 1base all-in from terran?
It seems good to have the extra queens against banshes or marauder/hellions.
But what about bio pushes, like 3rax stim?
It feels like in that case it would be better to have extra 12 lings instead.
It really depends. The response for defending a 3rax stim push is different from a 2port cloak or a thor-hellion all-in. You'll want to sack overlords to figure out what he's doing first, but throwing down an evo chamber is always a good idea if a terran's 1basing. If you're really worried, you can throw down a roach warren, but lings spines and queens do well in most scenarios.
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How the hell does ZVZ on Entombed Valley work? Do you guys drone scout on that map? I feel like I"m always playing blind or way behind if I drone scout.. Either I get all in'd with bad scouting, or it becomes a roach game and I lose anyways. (I almost always lose roach based ZVZ's).
I don't want to just start cheesing on this map - but I just might.
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On September 27 2012 07:18 AndySCWilson wrote:
How the hell does ZVZ on Entombed Valley work? Do you guys drone scout on that map? I feel like I"m always playing blind or way behind if I drone scout.. Either I get all in'd with bad scouting, or it becomes a roach game and I lose anyways. (I almost always lose roach based ZVZ's).
I don't want to just start cheesing on this map - but I just might.
Is it the map itself that is screwing with you or are you just a bit confused by the current ZvZ metagame?
If it's the map, then I would recommend looking at ZvZ pro games. Off the top of my head, Curious vs Life TSL4, Sheth vs Leenock MLG, Sheth vs Losira MLG.
If it's the ZvZ meta, that's another matter.
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EPT
