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b0ub0u
Canada445 Posts
Want to hear your thoughts about a game I played yesterday ZvT. He played turtle hard and I think I was too agressive. I guess I should have expanded more and defended better my newest expensions too! Platinum BTW. But my biggest question is should I have gone Broods Lords instead of Ultras? http://drop.sc/257326 Thanks! | ||
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_NIx_
United States49 Posts
What are some fun, aggressive styles that I can play in each matchup? I don't particularly enjoy playing standard, macro builds. For example, are there any guides to muta-based ZvP? Or anything on roach-rush ZvT? | ||
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liberate71
Australia10252 Posts
On September 25 2012 00:09 b0ub0u wrote: Hi guys, Want to hear your thoughts about a game I played yesterday ZvT. He played turtle hard and I think I was too agressive. I guess I should have expanded more and defended better my newest expensions too! Platinum BTW. But my biggest question is should I have gone Broods Lords instead of Ultras? http://drop.sc/257326 Thanks! Hey mate - as I'm watching the replay I'll just jot some things down for you. At the start, you got a spine crawler and a few lings, but didnt use the lings to scout, so you didnt know that you had no need to build the spine crawler. He went incredibly greedy and didn't wall off in the first 15 minutes - so you could have easily sent something over to have a looksie at what he was doing. Your drone saturation was really below where it should have been right untill you got your third, then you saturated that with 18 drones at once (that was good) - but because of this, you had a large pool of gas, and no minerals. Your natural had about 6 drones mining minerals for a very long period of time (also you had an idle drone in your base for almost the entire game, which, early on, is quite detrimental) 18 mins in, you probably could have attacked with all the units you had on the watch tower, and killed his army. You didn't know it was unseiged (or even there), but it was very vulnerable. Your units sat at the watch tower for quite a while seemingly waiting for something. At this point also, you both are pooling 4-5k minerals which is a damn lot (and you had 2.5k gas which means you could have 25 mutas, a heap of infestors, or just a big ball of banelings). You could have macro hatches with spare larva and just literally "zerg" his base, then re-max. At 21 minutes when you killed a lot of his army, you probably could have finished off the rest aswell, and that would have sealed the deal, as he only had about 15 marines and 2 tanks in his base. Your third has had extractors for a long period of time, but nothing has been mined from it yet - also your 4th has been up for a while, but only 6 drones are mining there. ALWAYS lead with your Ultralisks, then have your lings follow - the Ultralisks are there to tank the damage to let the lings get inside - maybe attack 2 locations at once, as your ultras choked up a bit on all his buildings. Unfortunately he managed to kill your 4th/5th and a lot of drones, but you smashed his front pretty hard, if your lings had of followed up - that may have sealed the deal also. Strangely enough neither of you made any more workers after you both got knocked down to 20 - but he had massive mule income, where as you had none coming in - so once your large bank depleted (and it was a few minutes after his did) - it was game over  Summary: Try to boost your economy early with effective scouting. This way you'll know youre safe, and can drone-drone-drone. Don't build units if youre not going to utilise them for something, and try to commit to engagements - you were quite hesitant on a few occasions and when you finally did decide to commit to attacks, he was heavily seiged with bunkers and PF's and I feel that is what mostly cost you the game. I can see that my post is very fragmented, but I just commented as I watched the video. I hope some of it helps (if not all of it! :D) Good luck! | ||
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b0ub0u
Canada445 Posts
Also, should I have gone with Broods instead of Ultras? | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On September 24 2012 19:11 gronnelg wrote: In lategame zvt: What factors helps you deside to ultras or brood lords? I think I'm lower level than you (low master NA vs GM EU), so take all this with a grain of salt. The map is the biggest factor for me. I default to BL unless it's a map where BL immobility is terrible due to a very open middle area and drop-favored play, e.g. Antiga or Entombed. Even then, I still prefer go BL and spore/spine up my bases, and set up spine walls to control the side paths in mid, especially Antiga. Metropolis was a map where I could never make BL work, though, and I was using ultras there. Ohana has the same problems (two giant paths that are tough to hold), but I'm still trying to make BLs work. TDA is ultra central if you don't still have it vetoed, and Condemned is good for ultras because it's even larger than entombed, so spine walls are kind of silly, and sieging up the terran's main/natural (BL specialty) never really seems to happen (if you get that far in, you kill the third and he's mined out so gg anyway) On the other hand, I would never go ultras on Cloud Kingdom. Ever. Not even for a tech switch after overcommitment to vikings. I also really dislike ultras on Daybreak--I've seen pros make it work, but I feel more comfortable struggling with BL than trying to chase things with ultras. Narrow corridors in general make ultras bad because a few get left out of the action, and when even one of those 300/200 units is wasted, I ask myself why I didn't just spam banelings (the other anti-marine) for roughly the same cost. And I don't often have an answer to that. I almost don't consider my opponent's build at all when choosing which hive tech to get. Even if he already has vikings on the field, I will get BLs, since any decent Terran will scout your hive timing (it's just such a large window in which they can scan) and prepare starports anyway. The only case I can think of where I wouldn't go BLs is a mass thor and viking force that's already on the field, but in that case I'm probably already dead (e.g., he's adding vikings preemptively because his thors can easily take down everything else). | ||
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Giganthrax
Serbia19 Posts
I do the DRG 9:30 ZvT baneling/ling/roach bust while grabbing a third behind it. I don't go all-in with it, the main goal is to bust his wall, kill lots of units and SCVs, then transition into infestors/ultra/bling/ling play. I do this every game because it's the only ZvT tactic I practiced enough so that I can execute it semi-well. I'm in platinum and currently quite rusty (haven't really played 1on1 for over a month for RL reasons). Basically, this is what happens most of the time. I bust his wall, kill a whole lot of his units, often killing tons of SCVs (in one of the replays I get almost 20 SCVs around the 10 min mark), at which point these things happen: - terran seems totally unaffected by the damage I do, he keeps pumping units the entire game while maintaining an econ that's usually on par with my own - I'm unable to properly saturate my bases because I need to use larva to make defensive units, if I try to pump drones terran pushes eventually destroy me because I don't have enough units, and god forbid I fail to notice an incoming drop - Conversely, if I pump out enough units to defend my 3rd and 4th, I usually end up being behind in economy despite the fact I'm repeatedly destroying the terran's army - it's just feels that terran t1 and t1.5, not to mention mules is insanely strong and that I actually need t2 or higher units like infestors to be on par with it, even speed banelings seem insanely weak vs a kiting terran (not to mention a terran who can actually micro his medivacs and position his marauders, then banelings without infestors are just a waste of resources) :[ I either need a complete overhaul of my ZvT, or some expert advice, because honestly I feel like I'm at a huge disadvantage if I fail to kill the terran with the initial DRG bust. I'm really really getting frustrated by all this, as you'll see from some of the regrettable BM I tend to spew at my terran opponents. :[ Two replays of my typical ZvT losses: http://drop.sc/257403 http://drop.sc/257404 | ||
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Monsyphon
Canada190 Posts
- Your 2nd Overlord could have been put in a much better location. The first overlords have the most freedom so you should move them in the most important locations as fast as possible. if youre worried about bunker pressure have a drone mining at the natural at 18, smacking the SCV whenever it gets near -You never sac an Overlord into the main, which is very important no matter you do, if you sent the OV in you probably could have saw all those barracks - Your ling speed could have been started 200 gas earlier. SO CRUCIAL when you want to do an attack like this - Your bane nest is late too - You make lings b4 roaches, which isnt good because then your roaches get so late to the party that your whole build gets slowed down even more -Making 16 banes is...incredibly overkill considering you have roaches and his army count. This is when it practically turns all in You bungled everything afterwards. bad engagements that waste all the banes on rauders, not enough units to break into the natural, and your lack of macro makes you fall further behind Right now, work on Overlord sacs, gas timings and tech timings, and your OVerlord production | ||
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Etra
81 Posts
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gronnelg
Norway354 Posts
On September 25 2012 14:17 Etra wrote: What is the best build order for ZvP? I usually go 14 pool. In response to a FFE, go 14 pool, 16 hatch, 16 queen + 2 lingpairs, 20 queen, 25-30 3rd. | ||
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Etra
81 Posts
On September 25 2012 15:59 gronnelg wrote: In response to a FFE, go 14 pool, 16 hatch, 16 queen + 2 lingpairs, 20 queen, 25-30 3rd. Don't I get an overlord at 15? | ||
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gronnelg
Norway354 Posts
I think I usually get my overlord at 16. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
Uh... you definitely want the hatch down first. I think Belial's guide says 16 or 17 overlord, your preference. I consistently go 17 overlord. 15 overlord sounds uncomfortably early. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 24 2012 19:11 gronnelg wrote: In lategame zvt: What factors helps you deside to ultras or brood lords? It's map dependent. For example on a map like cloud kingdom I think broodlords are far stronger just because of the chokes which makes broodlords strong (with infestor support obviously). I will always have a ultra cavern though to transition into ultras if I feel it would benefit me and vice versa. On a map like daybreak I think going either ultra or broods first is up to you, whirlwind for example I think would almost be a pure ultra map just because broodlords are so slow (obviously that map isn't in the map pool on ladder, just saying!). | ||
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gronnelg
Norway354 Posts
On September 25 2012 17:31 blade55555 wrote: It's map dependent. For example on a map like cloud kingdom I think broodlords are far stronger just because of the chokes which makes broodlords strong (with infestor support obviously). I will always have a ultra cavern though to transition into ultras if I feel it would benefit me and vice versa. On a map like daybreak I think going either ultra or broods first is up to you, whirlwind for example I think would almost be a pure ultra map just because broodlords are so slow (obviously that map isn't in the map pool on ladder, just saying!). Thanks blade! So choky maps = broods Open maps = ultras. Someone else said that if you see the terran getting aggressive, so you won't have time to get broods, get ultras. Map and relative safety. Are there other factors besides these two? | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On September 25 2012 20:38 gronnelg wrote: Thanks blade! So choky maps = broods Open maps = ultras. Someone else said that if you see the terran getting aggressive, so you won't have time to get broods, get ultras. Map and relative safety. Are there other factors besides these two? Unit composition and production facilities, sac a few lings to see his composition and an overseer to see if he has extra starports in his main or the number of techlab barracks. | ||
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WellCrap
Sweden122 Posts
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On September 26 2012 02:19 WellCrap wrote: Guys I still need zvp help badly, It's like I just cant win. I keep dieing to all ins. You need to give us a replay. You lose to allins after an FFE? Do you send in an overlord around 7:00 and do you have an overlord over the protoss natural gasses? | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On September 26 2012 02:19 WellCrap wrote: Guys I still need zvp help badly, It's like I just cant win. I keep dieing to all ins. If you want help, I suggest being more specific. There are a number of Protoss all ins. Which one is killing you? | ||
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NihiLStarcraft
Denmark1413 Posts
REPLAY: http://drop.sc/257740 Any help is greatly appreciated! | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On September 25 2012 21:21 NeonFox wrote: Unit composition and production facilities, sac a few lings to see his composition and an overseer to see if he has extra starports in his main or the number of techlab barracks. Everyone says this, but I really don't think it is the case anymore, at least not a major factor. Every decent Terran prepares for the Hive transition, every single one. It's similar to how zerg has to prepare for the midgame transition that Terran does, whether it will be mech or bio, even if a zerg gets caught off-guard by it, they run home and rebuild with the correct comp. Seeing a ton of roaches doesn't stop a Terran from meching, that's silly, it's Terran's gameplan choice and it dictates terms to the Zerg; likewise, seeing vikings already coming out doesn't stop me from getting BLs on Cloud, the BLs dictate what Terran can do regardless of preparation. So in sum, I disagree with neon, I still think it's primarily map-dependent, and blade is apparently in agreement. | ||
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