The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 389

On September 27 2012 07:10 Whatson wrote:

It really depends. The response for defending a 3rax stim push is different from a 2port cloak or a thor-hellion all-in. You'll want to sack overlords to figure out what he's doing first, but throwing down an evo chamber is always a good idea if a terran's 1basing. If you're really worried, you can throw down a roach warren, but lings spines and queens do well in most scenarios.

On September 27 2012 07:49 Whatson wrote:

Is it the map itself that is screwing with you or are you just a bit confused by the current ZvZ metagame?
If it's the map, then I would recommend looking at ZvZ pro games. Off the top of my head, Curious vs Life TSL4, Sheth vs Leenock MLG, Sheth vs Losira MLG.
If it's the ZvZ meta, that's another matter.

On September 27 2012 08:28 AndySCWilson wrote:


I think it's a matter of being confused how to do roach/hyrdra/infestor vs roach/hydra/infestor, combined with not knowing how to play the MU blind. I always drone scout on 2 player maps - but that seems less feasible on 4 player maps - so I never know how to open. That combined with being confused on how roachbased ZVZ works give me like a 30% win percentage on entombed valley.

On September 27 2012 08:14 Henk wrote:
Hey guys, I've got a little problem in my ZvT (Diamond EU zerg). I'm trying to get better at the 6 queen opening; and have practiced a few games with it. I'm improving; but here's the thing. after just playing normal for a while, getting 1/1 and lair, then infestation pit, making some lings, I sac an overlord and suddenly I scout mech being built. HOW do I respond? Do I rush to broodlords, or do I insta-switch to roaches? I feel like I'm so behind when I go for roaches due to me not having the correct upgrades, and all those lings on the field. Would responding with roach drops be okay or is it too late? And how exactly do you do the roach drops? In essence, it's quite easy. But his army is usually around his natural, so he'll be able to respond to the roaches pretty quickly. Howmany roaches do you think I would have to drop to effectively destroy his production?

I hope any of you can explain this to me, because the 'unexpected' mech from terran is the one thing in sc2 driving me insane.
Thanks!

On September 27 2012 08:38 Henk wrote:


Roach based ZvZs are quite simple really, what part of it do you not understand?
It's all about concaves. Do you know what those are? By forming a concave, the roaches will automatically focus down the enemy's roaches faster, and your fungals will be better - his roaches are clumped up, and yours aren't, so his fungals will be worse. When you get to higher supply, you might want to consider getting some hydras. You place hydras in the back, so behind the roach concave. Hydras have huge dps, but low health, and more range then roaches. So placing them behind meatshields will improve your firepower and life expectancy.

As for denying bases; try sending groups of 4-6 roaches to the enemy's expansion. Unless he has defended it well, it will pull him out of position, or possibly kill the expansion. So defend your own bases; and counterattack his bases. If he pulls his whole army; move forward, get a better concave, or snipe another base.

Always get burrow. Heal wounded roaches, and save infestors. You can also harass; burrow 2 infestors, and sneak them past their frontlines, behind a mineral line. You can either fungal all the drones, or spawn infested terrans and kill the base.

Any more you'd like to know?

(Edit: Typo)

On September 27 2012 12:29 Gucci_Mane wrote:
I'm sure that this is the most asked question, but I cant beat protoss all ins, even when i scout them. 8 gate, 7 gate, 6 gate blink, etc. I usually get caught with not enough units and too many drones. How many drones should I make before I start making units?

EDIT: I just read somewhere that around 55 is what you want for a 6-8 gate. does that sound right?

On September 27 2012 12:29 Gucci_Mane wrote:
I'm sure that this is the most asked question, but I cant beat protoss all ins, even when i scout them. 8 gate, 7 gate, 6 gate blink, etc. I usually get caught with not enough units and too many drones. How many drones should I make before I start making units?

EDIT: I just read somewhere that around 55 is what you want for a 6-8 gate. does that sound right?

On September 27 2012 09:50 AndySCWilson wrote:


I'm low-masters btw.

Here's a quick list of questions

1: What gas timings are appropriate - when should I grab geyers 2 and 3, and then 4?

2: Should I go lair first, or third first? If I go third first - how do I avoid getting hosed by muta play?

3: What's a good lair timing in general?

4: What time should my roach warren go down? I see some pros do it while they're at T1 - some while they're morphing their lair - some after lair is done. What is right? And why?

5: Roach/Infestor/Hydra is so gas intensive that I find I have a hard time using minerals effectively? Should they just become drones and spines? How many is too many? What are some other ways of using minerals effectively?

6: How do you know when to go for upgrades - or make more roaches and push? Same question goes for defending their push.

7: What ratio of roach-hydra is optimal? I imagine this depends on their ratio of roach/hydra - but can you give me some rules of thumb?

8: How much value is a good concave worth? Let's say I have 12 roaches at +2 attack - and you have 15-16 at +1 attack. But you have a clearly superior concave. Who wins?

9: Same as above but with hydras on both sides (How does this change if I have hydras and he doesn't and vice versa)?

10: What should trigger my brain to start considering a transition to bl/infestor? Or perhaps ultras? What should I do if they transition to either BL's or Ultras?

Thanks so much

-Andy

On September 27 2012 09:50 AndySCWilson wrote:


I'm low-masters btw.

Here's a quick list of questions

1: What gas timings are appropriate - when should I grab geyers 2 and 3, and then 4?

2: Should I go lair first, or third first? If I go third first - how do I avoid getting hosed by muta play?

3: What's a good lair timing in general?

4: What time should my roach warren go down? I see some pros do it while they're at T1 - some while they're morphing their lair - some after lair is done. What is right? And why?

5: Roach/Infestor/Hydra is so gas intensive that I find I have a hard time using minerals effectively? Should they just become drones and spines? How many is too many? What are some other ways of using minerals effectively?

6: How do you know when to go for upgrades - or make more roaches and push? Same question goes for defending their push.

7: What ratio of roach-hydra is optimal? I imagine this depends on their ratio of roach/hydra - but can you give me some rules of thumb?

8: How much value is a good concave worth? Let's say I have 12 roaches at +2 attack - and you have 15-16 at +1 attack. But you have a clearly superior concave. Who wins?

9: Same as above but with hydras on both sides (How does this change if I have hydras and he doesn't and vice versa)?

10: What should trigger my brain to start considering a transition to bl/infestor? Or perhaps ultras? What should I do if they transition to either BL's or Ultras?

Thanks so much

-Andy

On September 27 2012 22:57 MstrJinbo wrote:


1: What gas timings are appropriate - when should I grab geyers 2 and 3, and then 4? 

- I take gas 2 & 3 at around the same time as I start my evo chamber(s) and roach warren. I take the 4th when I start roach production. 

2: Should I go lair first, or third first? If I go third first - how do I avoid getting hosed by muta play?

- I generally go third before lair. You will need a round of speedlings to provide cover for the expansion and they threaten counterattack to slow down attacks. Weirdly I think fast third is stonger against muta than fast lair as it is easier to get AA at your third. 

3: What's a good lair timing in general?

- mutas come at 9:30. 2 base roach pushes hit somewhere between 8-10 min. Generally since I go fast third I accept my lair tech won't be ready when these threats hit. I will get my lair as soon as I can afford it after getting my third hatch and play defensively until lair tech hits. In particular I rely a lot on speedling counters to buy a little bit of time if they push before I am ready. 

4: What time should my roach warren go down? I see some pros do it while they're at T1 - some while they're morphing their lair - some after lair is done. What is right? And why?

A cool timing is to put it down when your lair is 1/3 finished. That way they will finish at the same time and you can start roach speed right away. If they are clearly going for a two base allin then you will want it sooner. 

5: Roach/Infestor/Hydra is so gas intensive that I find I have a hard time using minerals effectively? Should they just become drones and spines? How many is too many? What are some other ways of using minerals effectively?

- it seems that you will be floating minerals when you are building up your infestor count. So spines drones and extra hatches are a good idea at that time. Roaches and hydras seem to use resources fairly well. 

6: How do you know when to go for upgrades - or make more roaches and push? Same question goes for defending their push.

- up to 2/2 I always try to prioritize upgrades over units. 

7: What ratio of roach-hydra is optimal? I imagine this depends on their ratio of roach/hydra - but can you give me some rules of thumb?

- I think 40 supply is too much and 20-30 supply is better. With you drones queens and infestors you have around 90 supply left for roaches and hydras. I just feel better with the ratio of 30 roaches 15 hydras (8-10 infestors) than 25 roaches 20 hydras

8: How much value is a good concave worth? Let's say I have 12 roaches at +2 attack - and you have 15-16 at +1 attack. But you have a clearly superior concave. Who wins? 

- in that case it's whoever reinforces quicker. If you are defending hold the line, if you are attacking only stay if you are committing to the attack otherwise consider pulling back. Concave is important so it's good to get good one

9: Same as above but with hydras on both sides (How does this change if I have hydras and he doesn't and vice versa)?

- You don't ever want a bad concave if hydras are in your army. Also the worse concave is usually more clumped up making infestors better. 

10: What should trigger my brain to start considering a transition to bl/infestor? Or perhaps ultras? What should I do if they transition to either BL's or Ultras?

- I'm usually at 4 bases and nothing else to spend money on. I know thats a pretty bad answer. 

On September 28 2012 08:18 whatevername wrote:
When I go two hatch muta zvz, should I hit all 4 gasses at like 40, or slowly filter them in since I only intend to get a handful of mutas for map control etc anyway, and its allows me to drone harder?

On September 28 2012 08:18 whatevername wrote:
When I go two hatch muta zvz, should I hit all 4 gasses at like 40, or slowly filter them in since I only intend to get a handful of mutas for map control etc anyway, and its allows me to drone harder?

On September 28 2012 17:12 shihido wrote:
This might not be a quick question but I dont think it deserves a thread on its own. Maybe somebody can help me out.

In ZvT, whats the ideal general concept of engagement to help me get on top of an MMM+Tanks army.

Say for example the Army I'm up against is Marine, Marauder, Medivac and Tanks. Also if you can manage what if the terren army also have Ghost (to counter infestors+Broodlords+Ultras) or Vikings (to counter Broodlords).

My army during the engagement is usually Broodlord+ Infestors and Roach/Ling/Corruptors for support. Generally I focus on the broodlords to be the most aggresive to do the damage, infestors to fungal and keep the enemy at a distance and to throw down infested terrens. The Roach/Ling/Corruptors are there to protect the Infestors and Broodlords.

I think its down to my micro, and I find that watching replays of mine that even at similar army value I end up behind.