EPTI really need help in my ZvP mid game. I feel so vulnerable to the protoss early mid pushes like nexus first, or forge fast expand into 6 gate + variations. One thing that kills me every time is 6 gate variation mixed in with 3 immortals. I just can't seem to hold it off. I usually get my 3rd at 5:00 and get 3 gas at ~42 drones. Get lair first then speed. When lair finishes I get roach speed and armor. If I scout 6 gate I cut drones at 65, and pump nothing but lings and roach. However no matter how many I get I just seem to die to half decent FF placement and get rolled by 20 stalkers. I just have no idea what to do.
The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 216
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Chinesewonder
Canada354 Posts
I really need help in my ZvP mid game. I feel so vulnerable to the protoss early mid pushes like nexus first, or forge fast expand into 6 gate + variations. One thing that kills me every time is 6 gate variation mixed in with 3 immortals. I just can't seem to hold it off. I usually get my 3rd at 5:00 and get 3 gas at ~42 drones. Get lair first then speed. When lair finishes I get roach speed and armor. If I scout 6 gate I cut drones at 65, and pump nothing but lings and roach. However no matter how many I get I just seem to die to half decent FF placement and get rolled by 20 stalkers. I just have no idea what to do. | ||
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Vond
Sweden145 Posts
On March 20 2012 16:43 Chinesewonder wrote: Hi Mid-Masters here I really need help in my ZvP mid game. I feel so vulnerable to the protoss early mid pushes like nexus first, or forge fast expand into 6 gate + variations. One thing that kills me every time is 6 gate variation mixed in with 3 immortals. I just can't seem to hold it off. I usually get my 3rd at 5:00 and get 3 gas at ~42 drones. Get lair first then speed. When lair finishes I get roach speed and armor. If I scout 6 gate I cut drones at 65, and pump nothing but lings and roach. However no matter how many I get I just seem to die to half decent FF placement and get rolled by 20 stalkers. I just have no idea what to do. Vs 6gate you really shouldn't bother getting the lair or upgrades until you've hold it off/know you will hold it off. It hits too early for armor/any lair upgrade to finish anyway. I'd personally also recommend getting just 2 gas first, and then getting the other 2 once roachwarren is up. 65 drones I'd say is overkill for a 6gate aswell, if you look at pros most of them will get 60ish drones on 3 base before massing army (enough to saturate 2 bases with gas + 1 without). The variation with 3 immortals should hit quite a bit later I suppose, but as it's not something I've really encountered I can't comment on that. But a normal 6gate takes a different approach than 7/8gate in my experience. | ||
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Neliz
Sweden18 Posts
Ps. Reposted question since I didn't get an answer!  | ||
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Vond
Sweden145 Posts
On March 20 2012 17:00 Neliz wrote: Ok guys, I've asked this before but didn't get a any answer. I'm gonna keep it short, so basically if you could link a vod or explain a general macro oriented BO for ZvZ and ZvP, that would be so helpful. I know that Zerg is a macro oriented race, but if you would just explain a BO and if everything goes my way, what I should be aiming for in the midgame. I feel like I'm at a loss there, and it would really help me out. Silver btw. Thanks! Ps. Reposted question since I didn't get an answer! Quick answers, ofc is somewhat down to personal preference: ZvZ: 15h 15p 17g Baneling nest at 50gas Early spine at your natural Speed will be late, but since you're playing defensively that's fine Get some defensive banelings asap, and you can hold off 14/14 aggression with ease, and can drone up quite freely. As for midgame, try to get a 3rd asap, get some upgrades going (2/0 beats 1/1 in ZvZ), choose your pick of earlier infestors or hydras. If hydras, go for infestor pit once you're maxed so you can get some thrown in when remaxing (and for hive) ZvP: 14p 16h 24h 2gas at around 6min mark Roach warren + Evo chamber at ~7:00 - 7:15 Drone freely til ~8min If you defend early push you're pretty much golden. If he takes an early third, mass roaches to deny it. Get infestor pit and when remaxing throw in some infestors. When you tech to hive, get a spire or two (for double upgrades, just need 1 to be a greater spire though obv) then transition into BL's. If opponent is going gateway first rather than FFE, then get gas at 20 to get speed, and possibly drop evo chamber earlier incase of DT play. Scout. | ||
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Sra
Netherlands75 Posts
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jumai
Canada115 Posts
On March 20 2012 15:08 blade55555 wrote: I feel cloud kingdom is really hard vs a good terran. It is why I veto'd the map, it's just kinda bad imo with how hard it is to get and maintain a fourth. Not sure what the best playstyle is other then ling/infestor but I do think it is hard to get a 4'th, let alone keep it. Spore crawlers guarding inroads for drops *really* help, I find a cluster of 2-3 spores overlooking my third, behind my natural minerals, and at the corner of the cliff to my main can make it hard for terran to get drops in, limit his attempts to suicide runs, and zone down where they can unload if they try, It should also pretty much shut down any cute ideas about kiting you up and down the cliffs. I've also had a lot more success taking the outside fourth across the ledge from your natural than I have taking the low ground one in the middle. It's out of the way, a defending army arrives from a workable direction, and he has to come in on a kind of awkward angle to attack it without getting caught out of position. Also, if it does die (and you have those spores behind your natural), his army is in a dead end and facing into your toughest defenses afterward. The worst thing about that middle fourth is if it gets destroyed the momentum carries right into your third, which if you can't wedge yourself into the way of and stop him cold, will push you back into that hallway leading to your natural... at which point you're either squeezing down a corridor into a cluttered space while he's trying to elevator-cliff you, or you're abandoning your expansion to its fate while you still have time to secure your main from the high ground. | ||
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Neliz
Sweden18 Posts
On March 20 2012 17:21 Vond wrote: + Show Spoiler + Quick answers, ofc is somewhat down to personal preference: ZvZ: 15h 15p 17g Baneling nest at 50gas Early spine at your natural Speed will be late, but since you're playing defensively that's fine Get some defensive banelings asap, and you can hold off 14/14 aggression with ease, and can drone up quite freely. As for midgame, try to get a 3rd asap, get some upgrades going (2/0 beats 1/1 in ZvZ), choose your pick of earlier infestors or hydras. If hydras, go for infestor pit once you're maxed so you can get some thrown in when remaxing (and for hive) ZvP: 14p 16h 24h 2gas at around 6min mark Roach warren + Evo chamber at ~7:00 - 7:15 Drone freely til ~8min If you defend early push you're pretty much golden. If he takes an early third, mass roaches to deny it. Get infestor pit and when remaxing throw in some infestors. When you tech to hive, get a spire or two (for double upgrades, just need 1 to be a greater spire though obv) then transition into BL's. If opponent is going gateway first rather than FFE, then get gas at 20 to get speed, and possibly drop evo chamber earlier incase of DT play. Scout. Thanks for the fast reply, will try these BOs out as fast as I can. Btw, do you have any vids of games where these BOs are executed? Is the ZvP one the Stephano style, or am I completely wrong on that point?Would be awesome if you had some vids and especially awesome if they had some sort of commentary. Again, thanks | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On March 20 2012 16:43 Chinesewonder wrote: Hi Mid-Masters here I really need help in my ZvP mid game. I feel so vulnerable to the protoss early mid pushes like nexus first, or forge fast expand into 6 gate + variations. One thing that kills me every time is 6 gate variation mixed in with 3 immortals. I just can't seem to hold it off. I usually get my 3rd at 5:00 and get 3 gas at ~42 drones. Get lair first then speed. When lair finishes I get roach speed and armor. If I scout 6 gate I cut drones at 65, and pump nothing but lings and roach. However no matter how many I get I just seem to die to half decent FF placement and get rolled by 20 stalkers. I just have no idea what to do. Would really like to see the replay, cauz it sounds like you got the worst engagement possible or you didn't pay attention enough to the drones. I mean, after the first 4 zerglings all you had to do was making drones whenever the larvaes were to come out. It's exactly like the 4 gates push we were dealing on the beta. if he got 3 immortals, that would mean you had the time to have an overseer and scout it and then stop making roaches. You must have zerglings speed and engage him in front of his base (otherwise FFs are going to be a real pain in the ass). | ||
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Giku
Netherlands368 Posts
Since I play Random on ladder, if I roll zerg, which is on plat-diamond level I win vs most silver-gold people. I win about 80% of my ZvZ's, almost 100% of my ZvP's. Both the fact that I really know the match-up well and I can react accordingly. Now in ZvT I probably win about 5-10%. I really have no idea what the fuck I'm doing since the game starts to early, so intense. I know most people go for hellions (hell, I even do it with my T), and go mostly bio/tank after that, I just don't know how to defend or react to stuff.. -I can defend bunker rushes quite decently -I lose to hellion openers most of the time -In the mid-game I don't know how to effectively defend drops(Multiple). -If I get in the late game, I usually win, since my macro is usually better I guess my game plan is this: I expand, I get some roaches/spines/queens and I dont know what the fuck I'm doing. Do I go Muta's, do I stay Roach and push? Do I rush BL/Festor? Like, what is a safe compo against Mech, and what is against Bio? How and when do I scout? I can give replays but they would really (I mean really) make me look bad  ..p.s. I suck at TvZ too, because I dont know what the fuck to go for lol, DRG makes it all look so easy but I still haven't learned in 2 years | ||
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Vond
Sweden145 Posts
On March 21 2012 01:15 Neliz wrote: Thanks for the fast reply, will try these BOs out as fast as I can. Btw, do you have any vids of games where these BOs are executed? Is the ZvP one the Stephano style, or am I completely wrong on that point?Would be awesome if you had some vids and especially awesome if they had some sort of commentary. Again, thanks The ZvP style is indeed the Stephano style. Day9 did an analysis of it in a daily quite recently where he explains it nicely, found here: http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-388-p1-stephano-s-zvp-brilliance-5824215 | ||
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GloPikkle
United States197 Posts
-I lose to hellion openers most of the time -In the mid-game I don't know how to effectively defend drops(Multiple). In what way do you lose to hellions? Do they deny your 3rd for too long? Do they dive in and get drones? Please be more specific as to exactly how hellions are killing you. Build spines and a decent sim city using evos or a Roach warren or something. If they dive behind your mineral lines, try to block their movement with either lings or drones if you have to. If you suspect they're going to try to run into your main, put 2 queens on hold on the ramp. Good OL spread should give you better map awareness. Try to post lings as well on likely medivac routes. You play Terran as well so you can probably think of the lanes that they're going to send an OL. Losing to a drop is much better than an unscouted drop landing in your base. Also patrolling a few lings and blings around your mineral lines can catch them as well. When playing mutaling, you need to be really active with mutas. They risk losing their drop once mutas are on the map. When playing Infestor/ling, place 2 infestors at each base if you're not pushing out. Don't just clump them all at your rally. | ||
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
On March 20 2012 16:43 Chinesewonder wrote: Hi Mid-Masters here I really need help in my ZvP mid game. I feel so vulnerable to the protoss early mid pushes like nexus first, or forge fast expand into 6 gate + variations. One thing that kills me every time is 6 gate variation mixed in with 3 immortals. I just can't seem to hold it off. I usually get my 3rd at 5:00 and get 3 gas at ~42 drones. Get lair first then speed. When lair finishes I get roach speed and armor. If I scout 6 gate I cut drones at 65, and pump nothing but lings and roach. However no matter how many I get I just seem to die to half decent FF placement and get rolled by 20 stalkers. I just have no idea what to do. Well in order to scout this you need to see a robo and four gases. It hits around 11 minutes and by that time you need to have 66 drones (3 bases, 16 on minerals, 6 on gas 6gases in total) and just pump roach hydra with mostly hydras. Engage before he gets into a too good position to forcefield you out and try to lure forcefields and back off when your entire army is not engaging. Most important part is to get hydras and roaches and just engage well. GL. | ||
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TheFlexN
Israel472 Posts
I played toss untill I switched so i found that if u make 6-7 roach and mass ling u can catch the toss by surprise by getting the zealots attack the roaches and catch the stalkers with the lings. Mostly if your being attacked by a fffe you can all-in with mass roach because you will see the toss expanding to keep up. You can also retake your nat (if you lost it) or take a 3rd, I mostly comes out ahead anyway because I take out that army and proxy pylons. Also, people might gg right after you ill their 4gate push. I hope this will help low league players vs those all-ins that toss do! :D | ||
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Chinesewonder
Canada354 Posts
On March 20 2012 16:47 Vond wrote: Vs 6gate you really shouldn't bother getting the lair or upgrades until you've hold it off/know you will hold it off. It hits too early for armor/any lair upgrade to finish anyway. I'd personally also recommend getting just 2 gas first, and then getting the other 2 once roachwarren is up. 65 drones I'd say is overkill for a 6gate aswell, if you look at pros most of them will get 60ish drones on 3 base before massing army (enough to saturate 2 bases with gas + 1 without). The variation with 3 immortals should hit quite a bit later I suppose, but as it's not something I've really encountered I can't comment on that. But a normal 6gate takes a different approach than 7/8gate in my experience. I was always under the impression that you want to get roach speed before the timing hits. I mean slow roaches are just bleh... Also I use the overseer to scout exactly what he is doing, though I guess you can just watch the forge to see if he is upgrading or not. | ||
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Apevia
United States49 Posts
I was wondering what the optimal response ZvP early game where its standard ffe vs 3 hatch. Sometimes the P sends like 2-3 zealots to harass with. I was wondering what the optimal response to this is. I normally make like 8 lings but I feel like this cuts a bit to far into my economy? This could very well be what I am supposed to do, but I was just wondering what everyone else's response's are. | ||
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Megaman_X
United States164 Posts
On March 21 2012 07:20 Apevia wrote: Hello, high diamond Z here. I was wondering what the optimal response ZvP early game where its standard ffe vs 3 hatch. Sometimes the P sends like 2-3 zealots to harass with. I was wondering what the optimal response to this is. I normally make like 8 lings but I feel like this cuts a bit to far into my economy? This could very well be what I am supposed to do, but I was just wondering what everyone else's response's are. Best way is to poke up the ramp and check if he's going for +1 (aka forge chronoboosted). If he's going for early +1, you need roach warren earlier to defend the zealot harass. If the protoss is just harassing with plain zealots, you should have enough time to make lings when he moves out. Best advice is to deny pylons with your initial lings so he HAS to move out from his base. You should have enough time to make lings to kill the zealots. If you're droning correctly, his failed harass will almost always hurt him more than your few lings in terms of economy. | ||
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HansenKuo13
3 Posts
Just played a terran. I tried doing tangsc's big baneling bust with the roaches. Idk i saw i was floating alot of minerals but in that situation what should i do? Did i tech too late? | ||
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Buruguduy
Philippines238 Posts
VODS from pros would be much appreciated. A vod where P wins and a vod where Z losses. | ||
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Aelendis
Belgium892 Posts
On March 21 2012 16:40 Buruguduy wrote: How do you hold a 7-gate blink all in from a FFE protoss using the 14 pool, hatch, hatch build. The one where he pushes out with 6 sentries, and a bunch of stalkers then he camps outside your third while the pylon finishes then continuallymakes his stalkre ball bigger. i dont have enough surface area + my army gets halved easily + high stalker retention rate. for instance, the P would camp outside the third by the rocks in Antiga. i can't seem to beat it, two ffs cut my roach ling army. Is it even beatable without hydras/infestors? VODS from pros would be much appreciated. A vod where P wins and a vod where Z losses. Si I try to play with not gas until about 44 supply then take 2 gases. I start my lair with my first 100 gas, then meta-boost. If i scout a 7-gate blink all-in, i just stay on 2 gases, make a macro hatch, and make a shitload of lings + some roaches with the few gas that i have left. I also make upgrades, like carapace + 1 and most of the time. If i can have a good engagement, i win. A good creep spread is also a huge advantage. I don't have any vods; so sorry for that. Also, a VOD where the P wins and one where Z loses are pretty much the same ^^ | ||
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Buruguduy
Philippines238 Posts
On March 21 2012 19:10 Aelendis wrote: Si I try to play with not gas until about 44 supply then take 2 gases. I start my lair with my first 100 gas, then meta-boost. If i scout a 7-gate blink all-in, i just stay on 2 gases, make a macro hatch, and make a shitload of lings + some roaches with the few gas that i have left. I also make upgrades, like carapace + 1 and most of the time. If i can have a good engagement, i win. A good creep spread is also a huge advantage. I don't have any vods; so sorry for that. Also, a VOD where the P wins and one where Z loses are pretty much the same ^^ That's what I do basically. But I guess the question is how exactly do you engage? The issue is my army keeps getting cut off if he builds his stallker ball while attacking. I'm a 558 points in master btw, so I don't think mechanics is an issue. I maybe just suck in decision making. Any replay? Sorry I mean one with Z wins and one with P wins. | ||
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