EPT
So my question is : What 3 BOs for every match up should I use at this lvl? I guess I should be looking at the more macro styled builds at this point to make my macro better, but I feel like in the lower leagues everyone either cheeses or all-in, and when I go for fast expand I can't hold such an attack. At the moment, I'm just going for what I feel like, and I'm being horribly powned in any game. Any advice would be helpful!The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 162
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Neliz
Sweden18 Posts
So my question is : What 3 BOs for every match up should I use at this lvl? I guess I should be looking at the more macro styled builds at this point to make my macro better, but I feel like in the lower leagues everyone either cheeses or all-in, and when I go for fast expand I can't hold such an attack. At the moment, I'm just going for what I feel like, and I'm being horribly powned in any game. Any advice would be helpful! | ||
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Mvrio
689 Posts
On January 25 2012 16:39 MichaelDonovan wrote: What is the proper response to Thor-Hellion with scv repair? Roach Infestor? Muta Roach? I can't seem to make anything work. mass roach or roach infestor. with muta you'll magic box the thor but if your muta count isn't high enough scv repair will be faster than damage taken. fungal the thor being repaired but don't center your attack "circle" on the thor, edge the fungal to include as many scvs as possible. two fungals kill scv but that doesn't necessarliy mean get 2 fungals on 1 thor. by attack "circle" i mean when you press F for fungal the little green circle where you go on the battlefield to activate it and it says where do you want to activate it. dont waste fungals on hellion, their not considered armored so that damage bonus won't take effect | ||
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mtzu
6 Posts
So basically if the protoss gets a third up i should just leave the game? I always outmacro the protoss (which is a given i guess) and rarely take any serious damage from harassment. If protoss just sits back and plays defensive it's impossible to do damage. Roach/ling just doesnt do shit to stalkers/sentries. It just seems like atleast against terran zerg has the tools to beat almost all terran compositions with proper control. But against toss, you could be jaedong and still never even touch those stupid amove deathballs. Im playing at midmasters level. | ||
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Mvrio
689 Posts
On January 26 2012 02:40 Neliz wrote: Hey guys, to make a long story short, I've moved back to zerg from terran once again! I should tell you I haven't been playing for that long, and I'm only in Silver atm So my question is : What 3 BOs for every match up should I use at this lvl? I guess I should be looking at the more macro styled builds at this point to make my macro better, but I feel like in the lower leagues everyone either cheeses or all-in, and when I go for fast expand I can't hold such an attack. At the moment, I'm just going for what I feel like, and I'm being horribly powned in any game. Any advice would be helpful!for openings that are absolutely safe if cheese are your main concern vZ: one option is to 12p/13g or 14g/14p and if cheese is there don't gas and defend vT: 14g/14p or really scared go 13p vP: 14g/14p if cheese happens don't gas immediately | ||
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Mvrio
689 Posts
On January 26 2012 04:12 mtzu wrote: I know this has probably been discussed a million times but I still have no idea how to beat protoss late game. Honestly if the protoss has any sort of skill i just lose. Nobody seems to have any good suggestions either it's always "deny the third" or go mutas and base race. So basically if the protoss gets a third up i should just leave the game? I always outmacro the protoss (which is a given i guess) and rarely take any serious damage from harassment. If protoss just sits back and plays defensive it's impossible to do damage. Roach/ling just doesnt do shit to stalkers/sentries. It just seems like atleast against terran zerg has the tools to beat almost all terran compositions with proper control. But against toss, you could be jaedong and still never even touch those stupid amove deathballs. Im playing at midmasters level. we all have that trouble lol, multiple harasses at different ends of the map set yourself up when he comes with an already concave, if money is no bundle build spines like a mutha, creep and if your lucky in harasses go for the cyber core if it dies then attack and the only thing he can bring up since cyber would be still warping is Zlots, resupply again and constant attack. what I do is attack but keep 1 or 2 BL behind so when the resupply comes back I have the BLs to lead in wave 2. | ||
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Mvrio
689 Posts
On January 24 2012 17:57 Mjolnir wrote: I have two questions: First, what is the appropriate counter to a Protoss who 1 bases and chronos out about 6-8 +1 zealots. This is followed by (very quickly) Immortal/sentry/stalker/zealot. All off one base. It seems a variant of the immortal/sentry/stalker 1-base that is popular now. The first zealots come really fast - faster than expected and force roaches or spines, both of which are annihilated by immortal/stalker/sentry. Second question may be indirectly related. When the hell do you make hydras? I almost never use hydras. I'd probably even admit I'm afraid to make them because of how hard they get countered, or because of the fact that it usually feels as though that's what my opponent wants me to do. I just lost a ZvP where the P went phoenix followed by zealot/archon - non-stop pressure. I kept thinking "I should make hydras" but was always worried due to storms or a colossi switch. Roaches don't fare incredibly well vs. upgraded chargelots with archon support. They manage but it's a slug-fest. I know hydras would be totally helpful but I just feel like they're always a shitty option. Am I way off base here? Clearly they would have helped in this instance but I'm not sure they wouldn't have just been roflstomped within minutes anyway. 1st question- ling/roach with +1 carapace should help but you have to get a surround, if he's coming at you for the attack and its a choke at your natural like on shattered abuse high ground, go roach, have a sufficient amount lings outside you natural if you know its coming and once he uses FFs you know he doesnt have energy for his backside, Zlots which are pushing forward next to FFs would probably pull back for lings, push roach forward and surround is done. 2nd question- if phoenix wasn't a complete waste to him i.e he made less than 3 and accomplished nothing, and you know he's going Zlot/archon go roach hydra and don't worry about phoenix for the rest of the game. if he's on 2 base you have to know that with more than 2 or 3 archons he can't be going colossi because of the gas being spent on the buildings for archons and whether he went DT archon or HT archon (this is especially true for non-stop pressure you had), both gas expensive. archons are pretty much melee units so if its possible just keeping kiting roaches for the Zlots, have hydras stand there shooting while they dance around and when Zlot numbers are done concentrate fire on the weakest archon first. if you see the non stop pressure is changing unit composition like stalkers/zlot/sentry he's going to tech switch to colossi to save gas little by little | ||
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Mvrio
689 Posts
On January 25 2012 13:22 Drmooose wrote: Recently I've started to stay on Lair tech for as long as possible in ZvT. I completely agree that on Shakura, and a few others BL is definitely the answer. However, constant Muta movement on bigger maps such as TDA seem to be a much wiser option. Aside from the occasional loss from lack of scouting my ZvT has been near unstoppable. Dimaga? or Zenio at HSC did a 2-2 ling/bane build that I've found works best, followed up by mutas when you feel you have the time. I found that the larger the maps the more I stay away from Tier 3 zerg. (Adrenal/3-3 ups is the main reason I make Hive in the majority of my games.) Granted I'm only playing mid Masters players atm so my opinion isn't 100% reliable. at least go hive for upgrades including ling attack speed, and if your hive and want to continue ground+muta go roach or ultra if you can support it base gas wise | ||
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Tal0n
United States175 Posts
On January 26 2012 04:12 mtzu wrote: I know this has probably been discussed a million times but I still have no idea how to beat protoss late game. Honestly if the protoss has any sort of skill i just lose. Nobody seems to have any good suggestions either it's always "deny the third" or go mutas and base race. So basically if the protoss gets a third up i should just leave the game? I always outmacro the protoss (which is a given i guess) and rarely take any serious damage from harassment. If protoss just sits back and plays defensive it's impossible to do damage. Roach/ling just doesnt do shit to stalkers/sentries. It just seems like atleast against terran zerg has the tools to beat almost all terran compositions with proper control. But against toss, you could be jaedong and still never even touch those stupid amove deathballs. Im playing at midmasters level. you should watch somebody like Vibe stream. what i find the key to holding off these deathballs, is to overmake corruptors and engage on his side of the map. then you have to hit every injection so you have plenty of larvae to remake ONLY ROACHES. they are good against all gateway units. also make sure to save your corrupters. after you hold his counterpush with your reinforcements, make spines, take bases, and transition into broodlord. | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
On January 25 2012 17:18 Belial88 wrote: ^ trying to harass someone who's turtling is never really a good idea. Take it as an opportunity to drone hard. Terran generally has 2 choices: 1. Expand into 2 base rine/tank timing (throws down extra rax before third) 2. Expand into third, then 3 base rine/tank timing (throws down third before extra rax) 2 is becoming much more popular, as 2 base rine/tank is easily held off these days by better control, using lots of lings and less banes, getting +1 carapace, creep spread, and macro hatch with lots of larva to out-produce extremely fast even if you don't make units until he pushes out. When lair finishes, you should send an overseer in. If you haven't started your macro hatch yet, which you should have, you can make it as the third. If you have started your macro hatch, just take your third right away. Take it as a time to tech up, you should be able to tell which he's doing with an oversee seeing if he has lots of rax (more than 3) or a CC started in an empty base. You basically just have to deny the fourth, and try to overwhelmingly crush their 3 base push with ling/bane/muta. If Terran goes 1 rax expand, it means they'll have a large bio army quicker than normal. Scout to see what terran is doing, if he goes 1 rax expand into 3 more rax, it means a large bio force can come around 40-50 supply, instead of the usual 55-65 supply. I usually compensate for this by getting my first gas much earlier, and get speed then baneling nest quite quickly. If you get your gas later, you can just use banelings before speed. I then don't take my next 3 gas much later, because the idea is to make an army earlier than normal, around 40ish supply instead of 60+ supply, kill off the terran pressure, and then terran can't do anything about you taking a third. If you don't kill off his army, you can't really take a third until you have the larger army, since most likely he will have the larger army, but you have aoe in banes. Alright thanks man. That advice about scouting barracks is really, really helpful can't wait to start implementing it. | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
On January 26 2012 05:16 Mvrio wrote: at least go hive for upgrades including ling attack speed, and if your hive and want to continue ground+muta go roach or ultra if you can support it base gas wise please, never ever go roach against bio when you are on hive tech. and against mech you rather want to use your gas on broodlords/corruptors/infestors and not roaches. On January 26 2012 04:12 mtzu wrote: I know this has probably been discussed a million times but I still have no idea how to beat protoss late game. Honestly if the protoss has any sort of skill i just lose. Nobody seems to have any good suggestions either it's always "deny the third" or go mutas and base race. So basically if the protoss gets a third up i should just leave the game? I always outmacro the protoss (which is a given i guess) and rarely take any serious damage from harassment. If protoss just sits back and plays defensive it's impossible to do damage. Roach/ling just doesnt do shit to stalkers/sentries. It just seems like atleast against terran zerg has the tools to beat almost all terran compositions with proper control. But against toss, you could be jaedong and still never even touch those stupid amove deathballs. Im playing at midmasters level. if protoss gets a third i think u generally have 3 options: either get aggressive immidiately and punish him for taking a third too early (this splits again into many variations) and try to more or less kill him outright (or at least the third). the other aggressive option would be to just do 4 roach drops with burrow upgrades while preparing something like dropping half your army in his main and attack his third with the other half. how viable these options are depend on the map, how the game went up to that point and so on. the other option is to immidiately rush for hive and get to broodlords or really close to them before he has an army that just crushes your t2 army super hard. ways to delay his attack are threatening/doing counterattacks with lings and/or roaches, using the drops mentioned in option 2 and/or building alot of spine crawlers on the main attack path. while you tech to hive you should get the infestor energy upgrade and then 3-5 infestors, this will not only help delay the push a little, it also helps protect your broodlords from blink stalkers once u have them. there might be other options than the ones mentioned, but those are the ones that seem most viable to me. im not a big fan of aiming for base races against protoss players with 3 or more bases (unless you already did decent damage with your mutas before or the opponent is bad against muta / ling play), as they have the resources to prepare for it with cannons and some templars left at home | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
So we all know that 2 base infestor is bad, because the opponent can just mass roaches and roll you. That's why no pros ever get infestors until they max out, otherwise you'll get overrun, and they'll out-macro you too because infestors mean long time no army, so the opponent can just expand. So when I see someone going 2 base lair, I go third before lair, and slightly later lair. No problems, right. So when I see someone going roach based play, I go roach/hydra and defend with a stronger econ (later lair, third before opponent, whatever) and defenders advantage (whether is 2 base lair vs 3rd before lair, or fast 2 base lair vs late 2 base lair). My question is, if i see someone going 2 base infestor, should I skip the hydras? I've had success both ways, but was wondering what's 'better' - if I see 2 base infestor, and I went fast third, should I just go pure roach? Or should I still get hydras? Should I alter my hydra count at all? I mean, so I go third before lair, or later 2 base lair, or whatever (i dont think it's relevant, just know I went later lair, higher econ). I send the overseer in, and I see 2 base infestors. My response recently has been to NOT throw down the hydra den, or to cancel it if I got it. The issue is of course, if they get infestation pit but made no drones (or infestors) and made a ton of roaches. Hydras would help, but then again I'd probably have a higher roach count anyways or better upgraded roaches. So just wondering what people thought. Basically, should you still get hydras if the opponent gets infestors? | ||
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 26 2012 18:37 Belial88 wrote: ^ Should I get the hydra den still though? I would say it's a good investment since you might get into a situation where there's a battle and your opponent wastes all his energy on his infestors. If you build only hydras at that point and push, he should be crushed since hydras are awesome against roaches and without fungal, he won't be able to stop your push. | ||
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
I guess it's nice to have for comfort basically, incase they are going pure roach, because if you pump out some hydras then that next fights yours for the taking. Edit: I agree with Tobberoth basically. | ||
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
On January 26 2012 04:12 mtzu wrote: I know this has probably been discussed a million times but I still have no idea how to beat protoss late game. Honestly if the protoss has any sort of skill i just lose. Nobody seems to have any good suggestions either it's always "deny the third" or go mutas and base race. So basically if the protoss gets a third up i should just leave the game? I always outmacro the protoss (which is a given i guess) and rarely take any serious damage from harassment. If protoss just sits back and plays defensive it's impossible to do damage. Roach/ling just doesnt do shit to stalkers/sentries. It just seems like atleast against terran zerg has the tools to beat almost all terran compositions with proper control. But against toss, you could be jaedong and still never even touch those stupid amove deathballs. Im playing at midmasters level. 1. Go for broods when he gets a third. Though he will be able to base race you by avoiding yoru slow ass army and base race and probably win. 2. Muta Ling if you deny his third for a long time you will probably be able to kill his army if not you will need to base race if you want kill his army. 3. All-in with some roaches or something when he takes his third though forcefields shut you out and if he has the proper composition its not much you can do. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On January 26 2012 20:46 Host- wrote: How do you defend a proxy reaper rush? Despite scouting it, theres literally nothing I feel I can do to defend against it. The reaper arrives just as my 15 pool pops (after 15 hatch) and it can just pot shot drones. Got a replay? i'd be interested in seeing that. But if it's a fast reaper, I just transfer all my drones away. If they proxied it, they are cutting a few SCVs, so it's not the end of the world if you lose 3 drones. Not at all. Once double queen or lings are out, you can re-transfer back or stop running away. | ||
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
On January 26 2012 21:58 Belial88 wrote: Got a replay? i'd be interested in seeing that. But if it's a fast reaper, I just transfer all my drones away. If they proxied it, they are cutting a few SCVs, so it's not the end of the world if you lose 3 drones. Not at all. Once double queen or lings are out, you can re-transfer back or stop running away. I'll try dig out the reaper. The guy was obviously all in, he had like no workers, but I had nothing to defend so I just left - was already frustrated by the amount of cheese on the korean ladder. Essentially he just proxied the rax in the middle of Antiga, fast gas ect. I scouted the early gas and knew what was coming but couldnt really do anything. http://drop.sc/98442 | ||
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cha0sunity
United States7 Posts
Thanks for your help | ||
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