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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
hey guys
i need help with my zvp. specifically against a protoss who opens ffe double stargate.
against a ffe like most people i take a very fast third, drone like crazy until 7 minutes and then tech according to what i scout and try to delay the 3rd as long as possible. with stargate openers i feel that taking a fast 3rd is a mistake, because it delays you tech quite a bit which usually isn't a problem against gateway and robo builds because early game ground armies are easy to defend with roaches lings and spines, and your army is mobile enough to move between bases and at the same time you can put pressure on the protoss and delay expos.
my problem is that when i scout the stargate opening i tech to hydras and throw down a few spores and more queens, and if i get hydras out in time he just goes overlord hunting denying any scouting info i might have had so im completely in the dark about his next move.
if i scout it late or he hides tech well also screwed, because i have already started roach ling, and when those first phoenixes and void ray arrive Im fucked. he just kills queens all over the place by lifting them and when I've got no more air defense he rapes overlords all over the place, while i scramble to get hydras and spores up which takes forever and i can never get enough of them because I've used much minerals on extra overlords and queens and spores and most of my gas on roaches. so the hydras trickle out so slowly because i have on queens to inject that he has time to run or just lift them 1 by one and melt them with phoenix bonus damage to light units.
my biggest problem is that during this time i can't scout with overlords or poke at his front because of canons and any tech he wants to hide he can do with ease so even after i hold the harass i never know what comes next and i could be wrong but tier 3 units are a Fucking waste when he has the tech for void rays out already because they just melt massive units.
last night i played against 6 protoss in a row, all of them used the same opener but with a different late game variation. i lost 5 of those 6 games.
the game i won was because he only harassed with 2 phoenix and a void with i held with queens and spores and lost only a 2 or 3 overlords and a queen, i then rolled him with my 3 base roach hydra army.
the other games i lost because
1. i couldn't scout colo and i had too many hydras,
2. i couldn't scout immortals and lost tons of roaches
3. i was contained to my base while he took his third and lost to his huge upgraded army
4. close air the fucker motherships into my base with voids, then mass recalls stalkers and zealots, i scouted the fleet beacon late and couldn't get enough corruptors out in time, and the few i did get out just evaporated to voids.
5. i got pissed off and tried to just all in his base but with phoenixes all over the Fucking place so he sees everything i think of doing it so he just spams canons and Im fucked anyway.
Im out of ideas please could you guys help or share relays of this bullshit being beaten? before i throw my mouse again.
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exodus, replays would help. However might I suggest going spire into corruptors if you see double stargate. Corruptors rape phoenix so you should be okay on that front. Obviously dont go overboard with them and remember to get a ground army too.
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I always keep hearing that 15 hatch beats a 14/14 (build that I do) in ZvZ. However, every time I try to do this I get rolled over by a zling/bling all in. How would you execute a 15 hatch in ZvZ? (I'm sorry if it's too game-specific to answer)
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On January 21 2012 07:06 TheBatman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 06:15 TheBatman wrote:----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Master zerg (me) vs. mid master toss I'm having trouble beating this, I've played versus it quite a bit and basically it is an FFE into double stargate contain. Once I break out I double expand and by then he is usually on 3 base and going double robo, once about 4 colossus pop he is near max with 4 colossus/blink stalker +3/ void deathball at near max supply. At this point im working towards broodlords but I cannot get them out fast enough to stop this. halp? Here is replay. http://www.2shared.com/file/HegKt_G0/help_me.html can anyone answer this? have you tried 3 hatch before gas then get like 5 queens well placed spores and drive until 9:30? Nestea pioneered that strat vs this kinda style you faced. Once the sg play is denied you will have some hydra and should have a lot of roaches and near investor. It's pretty much just securing that fast third and drone while sg is all over you. But I have issues with this on tal so I feel you.
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Build Drones, Keep Ovies out of range, Remax and win.
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Masters player here,
What's the current ZvT metagame at right now? I'm having trouble against Hellion FE into marine-tank push. I generally put drones off gas after ling speed and drone up hard but after that, I'm not sure where to put my gas into.
Should I put it straight into Lair or get some ling upgrades? I'm mainly having problems protecting my third against some strong 2-base marine-tank.
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On January 23 2012 20:15 LiZaRd wrote:
Platinum Zerg here with some questions about Brood Lords.
Will it make sense to position a few of your Corruptors at the back of the enemy base and morphing them to attack the mineral lines as a form of harass? I haven't seen this done before in high level games. Which brings me to my second question.
How do I use Brood Lords effectively in the late game? Should I aim to trade armies, break defenses with a slow push or should I prioritize the BLs to attack and kill the opponent's high value units eg tanks, archons and then remaxing with a different composition? I know it'll differ in ZvP and ZvT, so I'm asking for both matchups here.
i've thought and done this before too but its not worth it. you morph BL into mineral lines and any decent person even at plat level will just pull drones to the next base making your attack economically stupid on your part and killing 4 workers at the most while your expensive BL will die to 1 viking or a few blink stalkers. its as almost a drop for Z. I've used on shakuras and it worked as while the coruppter is morphing I use a nydus and send a support squad but not the whole thing. its enough to pull units from both T and P.
for T he repacked tanks and I sent my main army into the front and he has to decide which to defend, multipronged attacks wins Z the game
for P he'll have to decide which to pull back, if its standard deathball in this example he'll morph blink stalkers and the harass is over unless your nydus army composition is sufficient. if he brings stalkers from the deathball and separates them attack the colossi deathball and should be easier to wipe it out and you should unleash the swarm.
your 2nd question in my BL uses its the battering ram that lets me attack after the late mid-late game standstill, even micro the BL with their broodlings because its free they launch 2 BLings for the initial attack and against marines they'll die to the friendly fire of tanks but only scratch ZLots. In both races if you just A-move the BLs and push the army back at some point the guy will say "F it" and you force him to attack, while you A-moved you prepared your concave/surround early your main army and if blink stalks exist fungal cuz BL/infest is best right now
For T if he decides to fully pull back you can't just hold the map and call it mission accomplished... you need to push him to his ends and continouslly attack because once you free up his supply he'll have time to get ghosts and you'll possibly lose your BLs. the OP of terran is that they can lose their army and the game still isn't over. also use this time to attack multiple bases cuz he'll pull the whole army to one base whether it be the natural or 4th, no one will pull their whole army separately and evenly to all bases cuz then he's vulnerable at every base. don't separate your main army from under the BLs into taking out the the defenseless expo, that should be the newest set of lings you made at the beginning of your attack thats practically rallied into his expo
prioitize the BLs to kill what will kill the BLs on the ground the fastest because thats what the enemy wants to kill first, T that would be marines/vikings but fungal helps, P will be blink stalkers(fungal again), archons won't be because they have to be under BL's and roaches should be there in his way and if you attack at the right time archons would be dancing in the back of the army useless. once stalks are down they'll pull colossi and 6 roaches can even take that out
none of this will help in ZvZ
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On January 23 2012 22:39 eu.exodus wrote:
nobody got anything? ^^^
as soon as I stargate I drone hard. if its double SG I'll go straight to hydra and even skip a roach warren because you have to think that even though its a FFE, 90% of gas will go to air so ling/hydra should take care for ground and mass hydra should take care of the air, have ovvies rally into your base only and get and overseer as soon as lair finishes to scout, sack the overseer if you have too see whats up
build a extra queen for every base just for transfuse if you want, remember that 1 spore can take a charged void ray 1v1
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On January 24 2012 05:25 Mvrio wrote:as soon as I see stargate I drone hard. if its double SG I'll go straight to hydra and even skip a roach warren because you have to think that even though its a FFE, 90% of gas will go to air units so ling/hydra should take care for ground and mass hydra should take care of the air, have ovvies rally into your base only and get and overseer as soon as lair finishes to scout, sack the overseer if you have too see whats up build a extra queen for every base just for transfuse if you want, remember that 1 spore can take a charged void ray 1v1 i think Day9 said once that if you see a FFE take your 3rd at anytime
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On January 24 2012 03:17 HelloSon wrote:
Masters player here,
What's the current ZvT metagame at right now? I'm having trouble against Hellion FE into marine-tank push. I generally put drones off gas after ling speed and drone up hard but after that, I'm not sure where to put my gas into.
Should I put it straight into Lair or get some ling upgrades? I'm mainly having problems protecting my third against some strong 2-base marine-tank.
remember that hellions are temporary and used just for early game map control, unless you see more than 4 or blue flame hes going mech. since their temporary ignore them for the rest of the game and focus what he'll go, marine/tank. I don't know what you go in your standard ZvT but if you have your 3rd up already then ling upgrades with a surround from what you have in main/natural and your 3rd, just don't rally 3rd to your natural.
would be better if you told what your ZvT build usually is, I got ling infestor which only works against dumb terrans who are overly aggressive. Ling/bane/muta would call for a straight to lair while a ling/infestor would call for upgrades
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On January 23 2012 23:35 iiGreetings wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 07:06 TheBatman wrote:On January 19 2012 06:15 TheBatman wrote:----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Master zerg (me) vs. mid master toss I'm having trouble beating this, I've played versus it quite a bit and basically it is an FFE into double stargate contain. Once I break out I double expand and by then he is usually on 3 base and going double robo, once about 4 colossus pop he is near max with 4 colossus/blink stalker +3/ void deathball at near max supply. At this point im working towards broodlords but I cannot get them out fast enough to stop this. halp? Here is replay. http://www.2shared.com/file/HegKt_G0/help_me.html can anyone answer this? have you tried 3 hatch before gas then get like 5 queens well placed spores and drive until 9:30? Nestea pioneered that strat vs this kinda style you faced. Once the sg play is denied you will have some hydra and should have a lot of roaches and near investor. It's pretty much just securing that fast third and drone while sg is all over you. But I have issues with this on tal so I feel you.
I was really trying to avoid this, but I think it's the best answer x.x
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On January 24 2012 05:34 Mvrio wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 03:17 HelloSon wrote:
Masters player here,
What's the current ZvT metagame at right now? I'm having trouble against Hellion FE into marine-tank push. I generally put drones off gas after ling speed and drone up hard but after that, I'm not sure where to put my gas into.
Should I put it straight into Lair or get some ling upgrades? I'm mainly having problems protecting my third against some strong 2-base marine-tank. remember that hellions are temporary and used just for early game map control, unless you see more than 4 or blue flame hes going mech. since their temporary ignore them for the rest of the game and focus what he'll go, marine/tank. I don't know what you go in your standard ZvT but if you have your 3rd up already then ling upgrades with a surround from what you have in main/natural and your 3rd, just don't rally 3rd to your natural. would be better if you told what your ZvT build usually is, I got ling infestor which only works against dumb terrans who are overly aggressive. Ling/bane/muta would call for a straight to lair while a ling/infestor would call for upgrades
i usually go ling/bling/muta against Marine-Tank so it's usually very gas heavy which is why i'm not sure what to put my gas into.
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Ok I have another zvp replay that leaves me at a loss (litterally lol). Well the protoss just sat on 2base and massed colossus immortal, at about 140 food he pushed out and me, maxed and remaxed on 2/0 roaches just died. Anyway, I wasn't even sure this was possible so I even asked him if his units were hallucinated..
Disregard the impoliteness at the end of the game I was just flabbergasted. I guess my main problem might be with taking my gas earlier.
I would love some higher-level insight though. Thanks for helping.
http://drop.sc/96773
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On January 23 2012 20:47 eu.exodus wrote:
hey guys
i need help with my zvp. specifically against a protoss who opens ffe double stargate.
against a ffe like most people i take a very fast third, drone like crazy until 7 minutes and then tech according to what i scout and try to delay the 3rd as long as possible. with stargate openers i feel that taking a fast 3rd is a mistake, because it delays you tech quite a bit which usually isn't a problem against gateway and robo builds because early game ground armies are easy to defend with roaches lings and spines, and your army is mobile enough to move between bases and at the same time you can put pressure on the protoss and delay expos.
my problem is that when i scout the stargate opening i tech to hydras and throw down a few spores and more queens, and if i get hydras out in time he just goes overlord hunting denying any scouting info i might have had so im completely in the dark about his next move.
if i scout it late or he hides tech well also screwed, because i have already started roach ling, and when those first phoenixes and void ray arrive Im fucked. he just kills queens all over the place by lifting them and when I've got no more air defense he rapes overlords all over the place, while i scramble to get hydras and spores up which takes forever and i can never get enough of them because I've used much minerals on extra overlords and queens and spores and most of my gas on roaches. so the hydras trickle out so slowly because i have on queens to inject that he has time to run or just lift them 1 by one and melt them with phoenix bonus damage to light units.
my biggest problem is that during this time i can't scout with overlords or poke at his front because of canons and any tech he wants to hide he can do with ease so even after i hold the harass i never know what comes next and i could be wrong but tier 3 units are a Fucking waste when he has the tech for void rays out already because they just melt massive units.
last night i played against 6 protoss in a row, all of them used the same opener but with a different late game variation. i lost 5 of those 6 games.
the game i won was because he only harassed with 2 phoenix and a void with i held with queens and spores and lost only a 2 or 3 overlords and a queen, i then rolled him with my 3 base roach hydra army.
the other games i lost because
1. i couldn't scout colo and i had too many hydras,
2. i couldn't scout immortals and lost tons of roaches
3. i was contained to my base while he took his third and lost to his huge upgraded army
4. close air the fucker motherships into my base with voids, then mass recalls stalkers and zealots, i scouted the fleet beacon late and couldn't get enough corruptors out in time, and the few i did get out just evaporated to voids.
5. i got pissed off and tried to just all in his base but with phoenixes all over the Fucking place so he sees everything i think of doing it so he just spams canons and Im fucked anyway.
Im out of ideas please could you guys help or share relays of this bullshit being beaten? before i throw my mouse again.
I think you dont need a specific build. More like a game plan. No offense but many things you write dont make sense in my opinion:
You have a third and he doesnt? Than just defend. Dont attack his entrance just because you were unprepared of his air play.
He goes Stargate ? Than dont play Roaches. As Zerg scouting is the most important shit. Place Overlords around his base so you can see his gases. How fast and how many does he take? Watch the Replay afterwards and try to remember the timing next time. Place a ling in front of his base and check the entrance how often you can without losing focus on your macro. Does he chronoboost the hell out of his cyberneticscore or doesnt he use 1 chrono. Sacrifice overlords to see what he is doing.
Let him never get out of his base unnoticed. Than you can start producing mass units for defence. If you see he goes air take all your overlords back to your bases next to the spores. You also can get overlord speed upgrade.
If you go hydras. Make a few minutes later a drop with them. Hit the timing where he dont have colossi and Hydras are really good. Or use them in Lategame with Infestor/broodlord. But that will probably not work vs a 2 base push from protoss.
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On January 24 2012 06:10 HelloSon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 05:34 Mvrio wrote:On January 24 2012 03:17 HelloSon wrote:
Masters player here,
What's the current ZvT metagame at right now? I'm having trouble against Hellion FE into marine-tank push. I generally put drones off gas after ling speed and drone up hard but after that, I'm not sure where to put my gas into.
Should I put it straight into Lair or get some ling upgrades? I'm mainly having problems protecting my third against some strong 2-base marine-tank. remember that hellions are temporary and used just for early game map control, unless you see more than 4 or blue flame hes going mech. since their temporary ignore them for the rest of the game and focus what he'll go, marine/tank. I don't know what you go in your standard ZvT but if you have your 3rd up already then ling upgrades with a surround from what you have in main/natural and your 3rd, just don't rally 3rd to your natural. would be better if you told what your ZvT build usually is, I got ling infestor which only works against dumb terrans who are overly aggressive. Ling/bane/muta would call for a straight to lair while a ling/infestor would call for upgrades i usually go ling/bling/muta against Marine-Tank so it's usually very gas heavy which is why i'm not sure what to put my gas into.
then once you pull in enough gas for speedlings and want to know what to gas, whether I need to start 3 more extractors or keep on the 1, try to know how far you can go without gas, you want muta so go on the 1 geyser until lair. since lair takes a certain duration of time you have to think "as soon as this finishes what will be my first purchase, 1 ling upgrade you can do on the geyser during lair build time, if i want bane speed ASAP thats 2 geyser during lair, you can do both but thats adding a geyser, if muta ASAP it 2 geyser and save up but for heavy muta its lair then during lair its 4 geyser cuz you have to take account of spire time.
if you go spire first you'll want to save gas but at the same time the debate goes on... "what can I do while the spire builds" since you on 2 or 4 geyser, i recommend building upgrades or things that has a gas variable of 50. bane speed is 150 gas and since your saving for a lot of mutas 50 gas can easily be replaced faster than a upgrade costing a muta. 50 is closer to 100 than 0. sounds bronz-ish but if you really want them fast and pop out 8 of them as soon as spire finishes try lair(2gas) then during lair production once your hit enough for a spire add other gases that are strictly saving for muta. almost pretend that those 2 geysers on expo are contracted only for muta.
i see idra just hold off attacks while wasting no gas while lair is morphing until spire (instant down after lair) goes up then 8-900 gas saved up goes down. after you do bane speed etc etc. if spire is not instant waste gas for anything that you wont regret later
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Ive been losing alot of ZvTs lately. I recently switched from standard Muta/Ling/Bane style to fast upgraded Lings into Infestor/Ling style but my timings are way off. When should I start pumping Lings to stop the first push, when should I take my other gases after my speed, etc? Thanks
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On January 23 2012 19:24 T.O.P. wrote:
I want to ask other Grandmaster/high master opinions on this.
Suppose in zvz you go 15 hatch and your opponent goes 10 pool and sends 6 ling + 1 drone for spine. Should you cancel your hatchery?
Tell me why would you cancel or why would you not cancel.
Today I didn't cancel my hatchery. After his 10 pool aggression was over he has 750 minerals in units lost and I had 500 minerals lost. But I had 10 drones and he had 15.
Hmmm that raises interesting questions.\
But I think the best option is to cancel:
You will get a surplus of minerals allowing for quick drone recovery, and either the ability to mine gas and not cut drones or get a second queen and not cut drones.
If you don't cancel: If you have a queen yes your production will be better but I don't see any way you can catch up on drones without dying to a speedling or baneling follow up.
Gas almost always comes really quickly after lings with a 10 pool, and when speed hits I don't see how you can have the necessary defense and still maintain an even economy.
In the situation you described your hatchery sounds kind of like a liability. It seems he's ahead in everything but production, and you need to use that production on drones while he probably have very successful follow up aggression or just expand with a second queen himself.
How did the game turn out? upon watching the replay did you feel safe with his follow up?
If you held or got ahead of any follow up he did do you feel like he could have gotten significantly ahead had he just done a different follow up?
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On January 24 2012 10:14 raybasto wrote:
Ive been losing alot of ZvTs lately. I recently switched from standard Muta/Ling/Bane style to fast upgraded Lings into Infestor/Ling style but my timings are way off. When should I start pumping Lings to stop the first push, when should I take my other gases after my speed, etc? Thanks
The way I do it is speed, then at 200 gas, 2 evos, when they complete +1 +1, then next 100 gas into lair, and I throw down 3 more gas at that point, and begin to pump lings.
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On January 23 2012 17:02 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +I still go really late gas on TDA when I hatch first, but I get one gas at like 30 supply to get ling speed. Until then, spine/queen/ling decimates any kind of allin. Really? I go 14h/15p/15g, so i get bane nest when pool and hatch pop. How can you hold mass ling all-ins? Double queen won't hold infinite speedlings, eventually it'll bust through. And what about, say, antiga, or XNC, how do you deal with it? THey just snipe your hatch and your queens are stuck at the front right? A spine doesn't stop infinite lings. I dont get it. I'd love to see a replay or vod or example of how double queen gasless would hold a 14/14 ling all in or 14/14ling/bane all-in. Show nested quote +As to defensive drone stacking: metalopolis, antiga, etc, the mineral patches don't seem to work. It's not a neat stack of just one drone but spread out more which makes it basically useless IMO. Huh? You only need 2 mineral patches to stack, not 3. Any 'corner' created will work, as long as 2 mineral patches which are 'staggered' in distance from your base, they will work. You don't need 3 patches, just 2. And even if they were more spread, which they aren't, it wouldn't matter, as they'd all be in range of the lings. That's what you want, that all drones hit the lings at once. It's essentially doing a 20 drone surround on a single ling. I get what your saying about roach/queen/infestor, I just don't think it's optimal, and it's semi-all-in. They could just base trade you and win. It's about the third, not mutas or hydras or queens. "Standard' ZvZ is going third before lair. So if the opponent is going 2 base muta, you go 3 base muta (if he went super fast lair, just go 2 base later lair muta). If he goes 2 base roach, you go 3 base roach/hydra. If he goes 3rd also, you can go mutas. Or, if you are worried because he has lots of roaches, you can go roach/hydra (which is where it usually goes). I don't think roach/infestor/queen is an optimal response. Pure ling/bane/muta will also max out way before you have enough infestors or units out (although you may have enough queens if you get third early nough). You can't win with that. You can win if you go fast third and the opponent is on 2 base muta, but that's a matter of winning because you are on 3 bases, not because of compositions. I do know roach/infestor/queen is strong, but what's stronger is compositions. If I see someone on 2 base muta, I just go 3 base muta and do the same thing, although I could go roach/infestor/queen (that would also be a fine response). If I see 3 base muta, I usually go muta instead myself.
Well recently I've made non-cheesy use of the nydus worm for this purpose, but nydus worm or no you really won't lose a baserace if you play it right. You should attack in such a way that you don't leave a counterattack route directly upon (so that they have to go around in some fashion) and then if you see a counter attack you can just rally your newly created roaches and queens to your base instead of the battlefield.
A word about the Nydus worm - it doesn't have to be done cheesily. If there's an unscouted region of his base, by all means take it and secure your free win (I think I've done this twice against colGoswer); but if not, all you really need is a spot decently close to his base. The beauty of it is that you can ferry your infestors back and forth to deal with counterattacks, absolutely demolishing any muta or ling counters. I honestly think that if you haven't fallen far behind up to the point that you have infestors out, the game is pretty much over because surviving the attack is near impossible. (Note: The attack can be done on 2 or 3 bases).
I suppose you could consider it an allin because you're trying to end the game, but obviously you can take a base behind the attack and the goal is really just to kill his mutas and establish a huge economic, tech and army lead (there's simply no way you won't kill a base unless you forget an overseer and he uses burrowed banelings or something)..
Also, thanks for the drone stack trick...now I won't lose to early pool on those maps either :D
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EPT
