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On January 22 2012 22:26 vahgar.r24 wrote:http://drop.sc/96264#OK, this is a ZvP on Metal , I see a FFE, take 3 bases, drone like mad, spot a stargate so get raoch hydra. His death ball just kills me so easily what do I do?
- I think you took too much gas, you don't need 6 gas to support the army you were trying to get, you weren't even mining gas from the natural for quite while.
- you didn't exactly drone like mad so your natural wasn't saturated at all (your 3rd was though?)
- when the push actually occured you ran up to engage him and didn't even try to spread your army out, you pretty much choked yourself into the wall and the forcefields took advantage of this. You could have easily set up a flank on the high ground from the gold base and probably would have crushed the attack. You could have also waited a bit longer for the next set of lava to hatch (engage at natural, don't push out to meet him). I'd say the primary engagement is what hurt you the most, try just concaving your army before the attack occurs, will help a lot.
This wasn't exactly a death ball either, you'd need a lot more roaches i think if you wanted to deal with a collosus push.
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On January 21 2012 14:58 Falcon-sw wrote:
I cannot beat a protoss death ball. It pisses me off that they can 1A their army across the map and it requires tons of micro from me to beat them. Snipe colossus with piss-poor DPS corruptors. Try and flank them. Attempt baneling drops. All of this is really hard to do, and I simply can't do it well enough to even make it matter. vs the ridiculous AOE DPS that the deathball does. It's ridiculous.
I do not fare out against death balls myself, but when I do, it's a little wiser to just use Infestors on them. Sometimes, I do not take aim for the death ball, but rather lure them far away from their base to snipe out their buildings or retreat.
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ZvP on TDE.
http://drop.sc/96543
He opens FFE, i get a quick three hatches. I scout him with a couple gateways and a robo, so after i finish droning up i make roach ling to go pressure. He hasn't tried to take a third yet, and i go look at his front and see his army back there. I poke up a little and deal some damage but I was afraid of engaging because of forcefields. In retrospect i think i should have pushed and traded because I was ahead in workers by a lot.
Anyway, he builds up a +3 blink stalker/colossus deathball. I engage him and kill all his colossus with my corrupters but his stalkers roll me.
My initial plan for this game was to try to do a 3 base muta build since 2 base muta seems really allin to me (and what i've been doing on TDR until now) but with his massive number of blink stalkers I don't think that would have been the correct move.
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When using 14/14 in ZvZ how many zerglings do you want to make after your pool finishes and how do you decide to keep making them? I've experimented with two sets as well as zergling all the way up to 21 supply. The initial two sets of lings works great against other 14/14 players, but by the time I'm able to scout a hatch first, I don't feel like I have enough units to pressure him. How would you go about producing lings to make use of the early speed against hatch first?
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Roach/Ling/Corruptor isn't enough tech to deal with stalker/colossi deathballs.
You need to deal with it somehow. Either make an army that can take it out at T2 (imo, only Roach/BaneRain/Infestor can do this, and I do it in about 90% of my lategame zvps) or go mutas and go 'around' the issue by forcing base trades and discourage robotech.
If you are ahead on base as Zerg against Toss, like 3 base vs 2 base Toss, and you had map control, you should definitely throw away units cost inefficiently to try and break him. Just mass roaches, (i would even recommend that you don't even bother with corruptors) and roll him. If someone opens colossi tech, mutas are a really good move as well.
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On January 23 2012 12:23 Belial88 wrote:
Roach/Ling/Corruptor isn't enough tech to deal with stalker/colossi deathballs.
You need to deal with it somehow. Either make an army that can take it out at T2 (imo, only Roach/BaneRain/Infestor can do this, and I do it in about 90% of my lategame zvps) or go mutas and go 'around' the issue by forcing base trades and discourage robotech.
If you are ahead on base as Zerg against Toss, like 3 base vs 2 base Toss, and you had map control, you should definitely throw away units cost inefficiently to try and break him. Just mass roaches, (i would even recommend that you don't even bother with corruptors) and roll him. If someone opens colossi tech, mutas are a really good move as well.
So pretty much what I did wrong in my game was not attack with my roaches? I usually go roach/banerain as my tier 2 tech of choice vs. robo but he had so many stalkers I didn't think it would work, though if I would have attacked he would have had less stalkers.
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On January 23 2012 12:21 Sigil wrote:
When using 14/14 in ZvZ how many zerglings do you want to make after your pool finishes and how do you decide to keep making them? I've experimented with two sets as well as zergling all the way up to 21 supply. The initial two sets of lings works great against other 14/14 players, but by the time I'm able to scout a hatch first, I don't feel like I have enough units to pressure him. How would you go about producing lings to make use of the early speed against hatch first?
Id like to know the answer to this one too. Should you make as many drones early on as possible? Like at high level 14g14p vs 14g14p I see them make 2-3 extra drones before lings to scout.
Do you do same against hatch first? Few as possible or as many as possible or somewhere inbetween?
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I have a question:
What hotkeys are unbound when playing Zerg?
I want to remap Patrol to something else (I use it extremely often, patrolling the scouting worker in FFE base, patrolling a single ling to check every base on the map to make sure no hidden expos, patrolling banelings lategame in bases to protect against drops, patrolling lings to deny nydus play in zvz, every game in TvZ to pre-spread units before engaging sieged tanks), but don't know what to remap it to. It seems like everything is taken.
I know there are some useless hotkeys, like I don't have a hotkey for idle worker or Jump to Last Alert (does anyone even use that?). So, that's cool too.
Thanks.
edit: Hm, "W" isn't used because that's for warpgates (i dont use it when I use P anyways, although I could always load another hotkey file if it mattered, i play z not p).
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On January 23 2012 13:23 Belial88 wrote:
I have a question:
What hotkeys are unbound when playing Zerg?
I want to remap Patrol to something else (I use it extremely often, patrolling the scouting worker in FFE base, patrolling a single ling to check every base on the map to make sure no hidden expos, patrolling banelings lategame in bases to protect against drops, patrolling lings to deny nydus play in zvz, every game in TvZ to pre-spread units before engaging sieged tanks), but don't know what to remap it to. It seems like everything is taken.
I know there are some useless hotkeys, like I don't have a hotkey for idle worker or Jump to Last Alert (does anyone even use that?). So, that's cool too.
Thanks.
edit: Hm, "W" isn't used because that's for warpgates (i dont use it when I use P anyways, although I could always load another hotkey file if it mattered, i play z not p).
This doesn't address your question, but I would just like to make sure that you do use shift commands to create elaborate patrol paths. You can also connect two patrol ends, like creating a triangle to make the movement fluid, like a racetrack course.
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On January 23 2012 12:21 Sigil wrote:
When using 14/14 in ZvZ how many zerglings do you want to make after your pool finishes and how do you decide to keep making them? I've experimented with two sets as well as zergling all the way up to 21 supply. The initial two sets of lings works great against other 14/14 players, but by the time I'm able to scout a hatch first, I don't feel like I have enough units to pressure him. How would you go about producing lings to make use of the early speed against hatch first?
Honestly vs the hatch first player knows how to defend properly you shouldn't do any damage but maybe some damage to the hatchery. If you are going 14/14 and he is hatch firsting there is no guarantee at all that you will do damage no matter what you do.
But in general you should make more then 2 sets of lings as if you make to few you will die to his mass lings (he will be able to out produce you due to 2 hatcheries and he should have at least 1 queen). I always make sure to have baneling nest out so I can make banelings if they do decide to ling all in.
What I do is just make enough lings to poke in and out of his natural to see his ling count/drone count and drone myself. If I see a lot of lings I start making banelings, and try to sneak a ling or 2 in the main so you can see if he's teching, droning, or making a ton of units.
If you don't like macro play you can try either a 1 base all in or 2 base all in which is of course your decision on what you want to do there. I personally prefer macro play so I just drone unless I think he's all inning or something ^_^.
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On January 23 2012 13:45 Ninja_Bread wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 13:23 Belial88 wrote:
I have a question:
What hotkeys are unbound when playing Zerg?
I want to remap Patrol to something else (I use it extremely often, patrolling the scouting worker in FFE base, patrolling a single ling to check every base on the map to make sure no hidden expos, patrolling banelings lategame in bases to protect against drops, patrolling lings to deny nydus play in zvz, every game in TvZ to pre-spread units before engaging sieged tanks), but don't know what to remap it to. It seems like everything is taken.
I know there are some useless hotkeys, like I don't have a hotkey for idle worker or Jump to Last Alert (does anyone even use that?). So, that's cool too.
Thanks.
edit: Hm, "W" isn't used because that's for warpgates (i dont use it when I use P anyways, although I could always load another hotkey file if it mattered, i play z not p). This doesn't address your question, but I would just like to make sure that you do use shift commands to create elaborate patrol paths. You can also connect two patrol ends, like creating a triangle to make the movement fluid, like a racetrack course.
Yes, I am aware of this. I am masters (i did just learn you could ctrl+shift+click on, say, the roaches, in a selection group, to remove them, so you can make your control group lings+overlodrs+infestors and no more roaches).
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On January 23 2012 13:23 Belial88 wrote:
I have a question:
What hotkeys are unbound when playing Zerg?
I want to remap Patrol to something else (I use it extremely often, patrolling the scouting worker in FFE base, patrolling a single ling to check every base on the map to make sure no hidden expos, patrolling banelings lategame in bases to protect against drops, patrolling lings to deny nydus play in zvz, every game in TvZ to pre-spread units before engaging sieged tanks), but don't know what to remap it to. It seems like everything is taken.
I know there are some useless hotkeys, like I don't have a hotkey for idle worker or Jump to Last Alert (does anyone even use that?). So, that's cool too.
Thanks.
edit: Hm, "W" isn't used because that's for warpgates (i dont use it when I use P anyways, although I could always load another hotkey file if it mattered, i play z not p).
I have my Patrol hotkey bound to Q for a similiar reason. I'm sure it unbound something, but you can just jig things around about. Obvioulsy you don't need warpgate so you could use W instead (my backspace is bound to w so I use q) You can also unbind some scarcely used hotkeys such as zoom in zoom out, these were on my mouse for me so i changed them to be my tech and nydus hotkeys instead
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For the record, you really shouldn't 14/14 ZvZ. If I see my opponent 14/14 I go gasless 15 hatch and just dominate in economy while being completely safe with queen spine. I basically consider 14/14 a build order loss to hatch first (except on a map like Tal Darim).
Deflecting early pools is as trivial as 10 scouting on most maps (and blocking the hatch if they hatch first since your drone is early enough) or following Belial's guide on maps that allow you to defensive drone stack (Shakuras, Xel Naga Caverns..).
Most 14/14ers go for mutalisk as a lair tech which makes the game even easier to win (just attacking with roach queen infestor).
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^ what do you think about TDA, might I ask?
I think the way to go is drone scout see how many lings he starts when pool pops, and make that many +1, and make a 'hidden' spine, like tucked away so he doesn't hit it, and bane nest, and don't make a queen.
I started to go 10 drone scout on 2 player maps though. A 14 pool goes down at about 2:10, a 10 pool will almost be finished. By sending a 10 drone, like on arid plaeu right when you make that 10 drone while on metal when 10 drone is halfway done, you can see before planting the 14 hatch.
You should be able to defensively drone stack on any map, by the way. I've never seen a mineral field you couldn't do it on.
I do generally agree with you (wouldnt quite agree with roach/queen/infestor bit, but it's more complicated than simply which composition is better, it's all about third timing, not composition, although what composition you go depends on the course of the game and what opponent does).
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On January 23 2012 16:36 Belial88 wrote:
^ what do you think about TDA, might I ask?
I think the way to go is drone scout see how many lings he starts when pool pops, and make that many +1, and make a 'hidden' spine, like tucked away so he doesn't hit it, and bane nest, and don't make a queen.
I started to go 10 drone scout on 2 player maps though. A 14 pool goes down at about 2:10, a 10 pool will almost be finished. By sending a 10 drone, like on arid plaeu right when you make that 10 drone while on metal when 10 drone is halfway done, you can see before planting the 14 hatch.
You should be able to defensively drone stack on any map, by the way. I've never seen a mineral field you couldn't do it on.
I do generally agree with you (wouldnt quite agree with roach/queen/infestor bit, but it's more complicated than simply which composition is better, it's all about third timing, not composition, although what composition you go depends on the course of the game and what opponent does).
On TDA I'm really not sure. I feel like with hatch first you sort of have to blindly make defense if you don't see their base with an overlord so perhaps a drone scout would be a good idea on that map anyway (although this will put you slightly behind vs an enemy going hatch first).
I still go really late gas on TDA when I hatch first, but I get one gas at like 30 supply to get ling speed. Until then, spine/queen/ling decimates any kind of allin.
As to defensive drone stacking: metalopolis, antiga, etc, the mineral patches don't seem to work. It's not a neat stack of just one drone but spread out more which makes it basically useless IMO.
EDIT: Also I've started nydusing with roach/queen/infestor for even better results. Just outside a base, or inside of a base if you get lucky, is insanely good. If you don't feel like getting a nydus, then overlord speed and a creep highway helps a ton.
As to how strong it is vs muta players, there's really only a few things they can do:
1) Pure ling muta bane - roach queen infestor stomps this hardcore, no questions asked. Decent fungals/transfuses wins the game easily.
2) Muta ling into defensive roach - I just throw down 40 infested terrans and transfuse my roaches a bunch. Usually I either have more roaches or better upgrades if I haven't fucked up, but in cases where I have fewer roaches or worse upgrades the mass infested terrans still seal the deal.
3) Muta ling bane with a metric fuckton of spines - I just lob down a TON of infested terrans (as vs #2) and demolish the spines. Spines are really awful when you have a ton of roaches, infested terrans and transfuse.
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I still go really late gas on TDA when I hatch first, but I get one gas at like 30 supply to get ling speed. Until then, spine/queen/ling decimates any kind of allin.
Really? I go 14h/15p/15g, so i get bane nest when pool and hatch pop. How can you hold mass ling all-ins? Double queen won't hold infinite speedlings, eventually it'll bust through. And what about, say, antiga, or XNC, how do you deal with it? THey just snipe your hatch and your queens are stuck at the front right? A spine doesn't stop infinite lings. I dont get it. I'd love to see a replay or vod or example of how double queen gasless would hold a 14/14 ling all in or 14/14ling/bane all-in.
As to defensive drone stacking: metalopolis, antiga, etc, the mineral patches don't seem to work. It's not a neat stack of just one drone but spread out more which makes it basically useless IMO.
Huh? You only need 2 mineral patches to stack, not 3. Any 'corner' created will work, as long as 2 mineral patches which are 'staggered' in distance from your base, they will work. You don't need 3 patches, just 2. And even if they were more spread, which they aren't, it wouldn't matter, as they'd all be in range of the lings. That's what you want, that all drones hit the lings at once. It's essentially doing a 20 drone surround on a single ling.
I get what your saying about roach/queen/infestor, I just don't think it's optimal, and it's semi-all-in. They could just base trade you and win. It's about the third, not mutas or hydras or queens.
"Standard' ZvZ is going third before lair. So if the opponent is going 2 base muta, you go 3 base muta (if he went super fast lair, just go 2 base later lair muta). If he goes 2 base roach, you go 3 base roach/hydra. If he goes 3rd also, you can go mutas. Or, if you are worried because he has lots of roaches, you can go roach/hydra (which is where it usually goes). I don't think roach/infestor/queen is an optimal response.
Pure ling/bane/muta will also max out way before you have enough infestors or units out (although you may have enough queens if you get third early nough). You can't win with that. You can win if you go fast third and the opponent is on 2 base muta, but that's a matter of winning because you are on 3 bases, not because of compositions.
I do know roach/infestor/queen is strong, but what's stronger is compositions. If I see someone on 2 base muta, I just go 3 base muta and do the same thing, although I could go roach/infestor/queen (that would also be a fine response). If I see 3 base muta, I usually go muta instead myself.
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I know idra's style of 15h/15p v all races, destiny's Ling infestor build which is taking slowly taking over as my main build vT, but what's stephano's style/build I hear famously about but never actually know the details to it. A quick basic run down of what it is vRaces would help, Im good enough to figure out the finer details
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On January 23 2012 17:50 Mvrio wrote:
I know idra's style of 15h/15p v all races, destiny's Ling infestor build which is taking slowly taking over as my main build vT, but what's stephano's style/build I hear famously about but never actually know the details to it. A quick basic run down of what it is vRaces would help, Im good enough to figure out the finer details
The build that Dimaga famously used vs MVP in an epic game on tal darim, that stephano made more mainstream, is basically double upgrade ling/infestor/3base hive.
and by hive I mean ultralisk.
the opening is standard hatchery first, but with a macro hatchery around 30 or so supply.
How I usually open when using this style:
15 hatch
15 pool
20-22 gas, don't stop mining gas.
ling speed with first 100, then when you get 100 lair extractorX3 and 2Xevo.
infestation pit when lair completes, move to take 3rd as you're safe, but you're going to be busy with all the ling production you can support.
as soon as 5and6th geyser are up, hive
of course if you can get away with double expanding, fast fourth, that sort of thing do it, but it does involve a 3base hive into ultralisk.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
I want to ask other Grandmaster/high master opinions on this.
Suppose in zvz you go 15 hatch and your opponent goes 10 pool and sends 6 ling + 1 drone for spine. Should you cancel your hatchery?
Tell me why would you cancel or why would you not cancel.
Today I didn't cancel my hatchery. After his 10 pool aggression was over he has 750 minerals in units lost and I had 500 minerals lost. But I had 10 drones and he had 15.
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Russian Federation8 Posts
Platinum Zerg here with some questions about Brood Lords.
Will it make sense to position a few of your Corruptors at the back of the enemy base and morphing them to attack the mineral lines as a form of harass? I haven't seen this done before in high level games. Which brings me to my second question.
How do I use Brood Lords effectively in the late game? Should I aim to trade armies, break defenses with a slow push or should I prioritize the BLs to attack and kill the opponent's high value units eg tanks, archons and then remaxing with a different composition? I know it'll differ in ZvP and ZvT, so I'm asking for both matchups here.
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EPT
