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On January 28 2012 12:54 TheLaddergoat wrote:
Hey guys, I've not found an answer to this so I'll go ahead and ask it myself.
So I 15 hatch, make my 4 lings, go to his base and see reactor helion
What is the most cost efficient response? Roaches or the Hatchery/Evo/Spine wallin?
This all goes by opinion. Lots of players will say evo/spine wall. I personally prefer roaches so I can grab a third faster and get map control back but its really all up to opinion.
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1-3 Spines, depending how open it is.
If it's open, I throw down 2 spines and add a third (XNC, Metal)
If it's with a choke, I make 1 spine, maybe add a 2nd (shakuras).
If it's just normal, I usually make 1 spine and eventually add 3 more (TDA).
3rd spine is in case they are going double factory or make lots of hellions. You can't ever know for sure (i mean you can sac an overlord, but I prefer to sac them around 5:30 instead of 4:30).
Roaches are definitely not the most cost efficient response. You only make roaches if you notice he has too many hellions for reactor hellion, or has blue flame. You can just guard with a few more spines and not make any drones, and make 2 extra overlords, while waiting until roach warren pops, so you can pop like 10 at once. If you watch, say, MKP vs Idra where Idra doesn't make roaches and MKP goes triple reactor hellion all-in, he doesn't even know it's coming until like 9 minutes, when his lair and spire is already started, and he manages just fine by going "oh shit, its more than reactor hellion" and throwing down 2-4 panic spines and guarding well with extra evos to wall off. Normally, you then get a roach warren, but idra was pretty confident and went with his mutas since he knew the opponent was going extremely heavy into hellions and was completely neglecting AA, which was kind of ballsy, but same idea - make a few panic spines, maybe evos, then when your 'tech' pops out, you push it back.
This all goes by opinion. Lots of players will say evo/spine wall. I personally prefer roaches so I can grab a third faster and get map control back but its really all up to opinion.
Reactor hellions can't really do much to stop a third from going down besides kill the drone, I think speedling or ling/bane can do decent enough to push hellions back to allow the third. Either you make the roaches too late and you had to use spines anyways, or you make the roaches early and it kind of kills your econ.
I'd be interested in seeing a replay of this in action but I thought generally zergs don't go for a fast third in zvt due to 2 base rine/tank pushes pretty much just shutting them down except on large maps or maps like metalopolis close air where the third is further away than your natural anyways.
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New Zealand459 Posts
Hey Belial, this is the proxy reaper thingy. Any advice on how to defend against it would be much appreciated.
http://drop.sc/98442
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Hey, I have another question.
So recently I've been trying out 14 pool/16 hatch on 4 player maps. If I get the scout off, I take the gas as necessary, otherwise I just gas before hatch or right after, whatever. I then proceed like I normally do with hatch first, defensive banes, a spine, no queens before spines/lings/banes until I'm safe to (relying more on banes/lings/spines than double queen, especially since one of those maps is TDA and I dont go double queen anyways, i dont like it).
I was wondering if anyone else has done it. It's more economic than 14g/14p and standard 14p builds, and I don't think it's too far behind hatch first. The difference is that, yea, you are behind hatch first but it's not so far behind as 14g/14p is, and you are safe from 10 pools. I've been toying around with stopping droning at 15 supply if I see hatch first, then making 6 lings to do pressure. I think these 6 lings work well if the opponent makes queens, not sure if it's just a gamble sort of play that only works against people who don't respond right and it puts you behind if it fails. If I don't scout yet, or it's not hatch first, I only make drones.
But yea. On 4 player maps, when you can't 10 drone scout or send an overlord by air to see what they are doing, it eliminates losses to 10 pool and I think it's the best pool first build.
Just wondering if anyone's done it. 14 pool/16hatch, gas wheneverish. Just tired of autolosses to 10 pools, which seem so common recently (or maybe against just me, too well known now).
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On January 28 2012 15:36 Host- wrote:Hey Belial, this is the proxy reaper thingy. Any advice on how to defend against it would be much appreciated. http://drop.sc/98442
Wow he seriously cut workers. He made rax at what, 7 supply?
With the drone scout, you always select gas (if he's going reactor hellion for example, you can tell if it's reactor hellion when 100 gas is done around when marine pops, or he already has 100 gas mined and his rax just finished, meaning it's a gas first). You should've known something was up when 100 gas was already mined with your drone scout, that also saw his base first.
At 14ish supply, as you were, you should've realized whoa that's way too much gas mined, not only is that way ahead of a normal gas first build, but his rax shouldn't even be done in a normal build. Even 11/11 rax shouldn't have rax finished by then.
So you see the gas, you see it has 100 gas mined already, you know that he's already got a rax if he's already got more than 100 gas mined.
I think from there you should've went into panic mode, basically. You see gas first, you know it's proxied. I know reaper build like this is really weird and awkward, but you should've sensed "okay, he mined a bunch of gas, way too early, and there's no rax, and depot is in weird spot. This means he must have proxied buildings, first off. Secondly, it would be too weird to proxy the rax, factory, and starport if it's banshees, or hellions, or whatever, and it's too much gas mined too early to be anything like banshees or tech that late, so it must be some kind of rax tech".
Now I know it may be a leap to think REAPERS, but you should've known "okay, it's either marauders or reapers".
Maybe that's a strech on your first time against it, but you really should've been in panic mode here.
You go hatch/pool... standard.
You left the game too early. Even after killing 4 drones, you were still ahead by 2 workers. You know he must've cut a shitload to do what he did. What you should've done, is had an overlord by the edge (against reapers, maybe it's your first time so okay, it's fine if you didn't know then, but now you do), and been ready to run away with drones. From there just make a handful of lings, and once those queens pop, plant a spine and have maybe 2 queens by the same hatch with all drones mining at the same hatch.
Yea. You weren't that bad off man. That's not a normal reaper expand there, he made a 7 rax and seriously cut workers. You weren't that bad off, you left prematurely I think.
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New Zealand459 Posts
On January 28 2012 16:25 Belial88 wrote:
Hey, I have another question.
So recently I've been trying out 14 pool/16 hatch on 4 player maps. If I get the scout off, I take the gas as necessary, otherwise I just gas before hatch or right after, whatever. I then proceed like I normally do with hatch first, defensive banes, a spine, no queens before spines/lings/banes until I'm safe to (relying more on banes/lings/spines than double queen, especially since one of those maps is TDA and I dont go double queen anyways, i dont like it).
I was wondering if anyone else has done it. It's more economic than 14g/14p and standard 14p builds, and I don't think it's too far behind hatch first. The difference is that, yea, you are behind hatch first but it's not so far behind as 14g/14p is, and you are safe from 10 pools. I've been toying around with stopping droning at 15 supply if I see hatch first, then making 6 lings to do pressure. I think these 6 lings work well if the opponent makes queens, not sure if it's just a gamble sort of play that only works against people who don't respond right and it puts you behind if it fails. If I don't scout yet, or it's not hatch first, I only make drones.
But yea. On 4 player maps, when you can't 10 drone scout or send an overlord by air to see what they are doing, it eliminates losses to 10 pool and I think it's the best pool first build.
Just wondering if anyone's done it. 14 pool/16hatch, gas wheneverish. Just tired of autolosses to 10 pools, which seem so common recently (or maybe against just me, too well known now).
I open with a 9 pool on the smaller maps in the map pool for zvz, and 14 pool 15/16 hatch is the one build that puts the person I'm against so far ahead. Despite that fact that I haven't played with 14 pool 16 hatch, it's obviously a solid build, and typically in my experience the hatch is only a bit behind the amount that a 15 hatch would have been built.
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New Zealand459 Posts
On January 28 2012 16:31 Belial88 wrote:Wow he seriously cut workers. He made rax at what, 7 supply? With the drone scout, you always select gas (if he's going reactor hellion for example, you can tell if it's reactor hellion when 100 gas is done around when marine pops, or he already has 100 gas mined and his rax just finished, meaning it's a gas first). You should've known something was up when 100 gas was already mined with your drone scout, that also saw his base first. At 14ish supply, as you were, you should've realized whoa that's way too much gas mined, not only is that way ahead of a normal gas first build, but his rax shouldn't even be done in a normal build. Even 11/11 rax shouldn't have rax finished by then. So you see the gas, you see it has 100 gas mined already, you know that he's already got a rax if he's already got more than 100 gas mined. I think from there you should've went into panic mode, basically. You see gas first, you know it's proxied. I know reaper build like this is really weird and awkward, but you should've sensed "okay, he mined a bunch of gas, way too early, and there's no rax, and depot is in weird spot. This means he must have proxied buildings, first off. Secondly, it would be too weird to proxy the rax, factory, and starport if it's banshees, or hellions, or whatever, and it's too much gas mined too early to be anything like banshees or tech that late, so it must be some kind of rax tech". Now I know it may be a leap to think REAPERS, but you should've known "okay, it's either marauders or reapers". Maybe that's a strech on your first time against it, but you really should've been in panic mode here. You go hatch/pool... standard. You left the game too early. Even after killing 4 drones, you were still ahead by 2 workers. You know he must've cut a shitload to do what he did. What you should've done, is had an overlord by the edge (against reapers, maybe it's your first time so okay, it's fine if you didn't know then, but now you do), and been ready to run away with drones. From there just make a handful of lings, and once those queens pop, plant a spine and have maybe 2 queens by the same hatch with all drones mining at the same hatch. Yea. You weren't that bad off man. That's not a normal reaper expand there, he made a 7 rax and seriously cut workers. You weren't that bad off, you left prematurely I think.
Yea I agree that at the point I left I wasn't too far behind, but it would have been 24 seconds until my lings are out, 50? for the queen. He would have been able to pick off a lot more drones in that point. I knew it was reapers because of the low drone count so he couldnt really muster a decent rine rauder force.
So should I have just gone pool then gas and ran my drones around a bit to stall?
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Alright..more ZvT problems from me haha. So with the usual two-base muta with macro hatch build, I was wondering whether I should just cut drones at 44 and pump lings until my mutas pop, or just try to drone as much as possible in anticipation of saturating the third.
My reasoning is that by cutting at 44 I could have enough lings to get map control back, since I'm really uncomfortable with not having map presence until mutas.
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United States2095 Posts
On January 27 2012 08:33 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 06:57 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
Roach ling Corrupter, Split your army into more then 1 group. Come from multiple angles and reinfoce. Try and only attack on creep and near your re-enforcing army. Having a few spines can help as well. Don't be afraid to lose a base, as long as you can save the drones and surround his army in the process. Muta Ling Base Race works as well ^^ Wouldn't the lings waste supply for more roaches? They get melted by the colossus in a few seconds.
No.
2 base pushes are something like 140 protoss supply, and then they attack. You as a zerg attack at this 200 supply of your own and you can reinforce quicker. Roaches waste more supply, I can't believe you said that. 4 lings = 1 roach in supply. Going from more then one angle is the trick as I say above.
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United States2095 Posts
On January 27 2012 08:42 VoirDire wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 06:57 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
Roach ling Corrupter, Split your army into more then 1 group. Come from multiple angles and reinfoce. Try and only attack on creep and near your re-enforcing army. Having a few spines can help as well. Don't be afraid to lose a base, as long as you can save the drones and surround his army in the process. Muta Ling Base Race works as well ^^ In my experience muta/ling can often beat 2 base colossus straight up, as they won't have enough gas to build much AA. What's your opinion on this?
What do you want me to say to this?
Sometimes it can? Sometimes it can't? You could be a little more specific...
If played evenly you want a base race, and can't just engage the protoss with a 2 base collosus push straight up. Obviously depends on both builds, supplies, upgrades, map, positioning, ammount of sentries / zealots / sentries / collosus. o.o
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Yea I agree that at the point I left I wasn't too far behind, but it would have been 24 seconds until my lings are out, 50? for the queen. He would have been able to pick off a lot more drones in that point. I knew it was reapers because of the low drone count so he couldnt really muster a decent rine rauder force.
So should I have just gone pool then gas and ran my drones around a bit to stall?
Your build was fine, perfectly fine. And you are exaggerating a bit, your queen was already have done. With an overlord watching the ledge, or even not, just pulling the drones away with better reaction time, and then having them hang around the queen, you would've been fine. This guy has severely cut workers, and you are up a base on him. You are fine if you lose a few drones, once those 2 queens pop, he can't make any numbers of reapers to stop it. Just get a few lings to assist, maybe even a spine, and you end up way ahead.
Yea, you were fine. You shouldn't have left, your queens would've popped, have 2 queens on 1 hatchery guarding all the drones until a spine comes up, and then transfer.
Alright..more ZvT problems from me haha. So with the usual two-base muta with macro hatch build, I was wondering whether I should just cut drones at 44 and pump lings until my mutas pop, or just try to drone as much as possible in anticipation of saturating the third.
Never oversaturate. When the third pops, or just about to pop, with 3 hatches 3 injects, you can saturate it instantly. Never oversaturate. You are wayyy better making lings. And at 44 supply you are only really around 30-35 drones due to queens, scouting lings, and drones that are in production rather than mining. You need to hit like 70 supply before it's actually perfect saturation, but given diminishing returns and larva injects, I say start massing lings around 60 supply since they do a ton of good, and will easily secure your third.
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Hi ! I'm both new and sorry for my relatively poor English. I am also a mid gold Zerg in EU. My macro is okay, far from perfect, but I don't loose anymore with 3k in bank and can work around cheeses and basic all ins  . I am wondering a few things regarding matches vs terrans and protoss.
1. In medium to large maps, in the mid-late game (15+ minutes), I am wondering if using nydus networks a lot can be cost effective against air / drop harass, and more generally as the main system used to defend the base and control the map. The obvious issues are the freaking sound, the cost (100 min&gas / expo) and the low durability of the building itself. In theory it looks good, but pros almost never use them as a defensive buildings. So I'd like to know if someone had good success abusing this building (any link toward replays would be appreciated) or if it's a lost cause.
2. Against standard protoss play (any gateway units + later, colo), i still use the "old style" roaches/hydras -> corruptors on 3 bases with 2xevo range/armor uprades. At my level it basically works unless I let my opponent expand past 2 bases without wasting *a lot* of resources. Otherwise I usually loose taking another base (to be able to afford broods) and doing an "all in" until my resources are dry. It fails even more easily if my opponent start using spellcasters/archons + blink :p. Also this style doesn't help with the late game. Broodlords don't get a bonus from my ground upgrades. It seems that the new standard Z deathball is corruptor/brood/infestor + spine/lings. But upgrade/tech wise, it's very far away from my compo (well, infected terrans are, and works well as a wall/buffer, but that's all), it's micro intensive, and weak against harass. So if i want to keep my current mid game (my ling/muta vs protoss being terrible) am I condemned to have a sub optimal late game if i don't kill him before this stage, which is fine by me, but i'd like to be sure
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Thanks Belial, you're always so helpful!
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On January 28 2012 17:35 Liquid`Sheth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 08:42 VoirDire wrote:On January 27 2012 06:57 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
Roach ling Corrupter, Split your army into more then 1 group. Come from multiple angles and reinfoce. Try and only attack on creep and near your re-enforcing army. Having a few spines can help as well. Don't be afraid to lose a base, as long as you can save the drones and surround his army in the process. Muta Ling Base Race works as well ^^ In my experience muta/ling can often beat 2 base colossus straight up, as they won't have enough gas to build much AA. What's your opinion on this? What do you want me to say to this? Sometimes it can? Sometimes it can't? You could be a little more specific... If played evenly you want a base race, and can't just engage the protoss with a 2 base collosus push straight up. Obviously depends on both builds, supplies, upgrades, map, positioning, ammount of sentries / zealots / sentries / collosus. o.o
I'll be more specific. In a standard protoss forge FE vs 3 base zerg opening, you send a scouting OL at 7:00-7:30 and spot a robotics bay. Is it then generally safe to take all 6 gas and tech to muta?
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Hey guys, I was just wondering about concaves, especially vs. P. Let's say I attack from 2 sides with a 3/4 surround and he then forcefields 1/4 of that away, is it okay to just let those units wash up against forcefields for a while or should I pull away and risk losing more units to forcefields in favour of the better concave?
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On January 29 2012 06:49 TheLaddergoat wrote:
Hey guys, I was just wondering about concaves, especially vs. P. Let's say I attack from 2 sides with a 3/4 surround and he then forcefields 1/4 of that away, is it okay to just let those units wash up against forcefields for a while or should I pull away and risk losing more units to forcefields in favour of the better concave?
If you still have a superior concave and army it is usually worthwhile to continue pushing the toss back, so pull your force fielded units around to reinforce the rest of the concave.
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I just cant seem to understand ZvZ guys, i just lose, lose and lose. It makes me want to switch race -.-
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On January 29 2012 08:15 Eee wrote:
I just cant seem to understand ZvZ guys, i just lose, lose and lose. It makes me want to switch race -.-
umm...replays? thoughts on your own play? General things you're losing to??
Generally, losing in zvz comes to down to lack of scouting and/or not understanding what you scout. That's the best I can do with what you've said so far...
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United States2095 Posts
On January 29 2012 06:09 VoirDire wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 17:35 Liquid`Sheth wrote:On January 27 2012 08:42 VoirDire wrote:On January 27 2012 06:57 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
Roach ling Corrupter, Split your army into more then 1 group. Come from multiple angles and reinfoce. Try and only attack on creep and near your re-enforcing army. Having a few spines can help as well. Don't be afraid to lose a base, as long as you can save the drones and surround his army in the process. Muta Ling Base Race works as well ^^ In my experience muta/ling can often beat 2 base colossus straight up, as they won't have enough gas to build much AA. What's your opinion on this? What do you want me to say to this? Sometimes it can? Sometimes it can't? You could be a little more specific... If played evenly you want a base race, and can't just engage the protoss with a 2 base collosus push straight up. Obviously depends on both builds, supplies, upgrades, map, positioning, ammount of sentries / zealots / sentries / collosus. o.o I'll be more specific. In a standard protoss forge FE vs 3 base zerg opening, you send a scouting OL at 7:00-7:30 and spot a robotics bay. Is it then generally safe to take all 6 gas and tech to muta?
No, depends on the amount of gates with it.
Watch for Warprism Drops, or Warprism all ins.
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On January 29 2012 08:59 Amaterasu1234 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2012 08:15 Eee wrote:
I just cant seem to understand ZvZ guys, i just lose, lose and lose. It makes me want to switch race -.- umm...replays? thoughts on your own play? General things you're losing to?? Generally, losing in zvz comes to down to lack of scouting and/or not understanding what you scout. That's the best I can do with what you've said so far...
It feels like either I fail with unit comp or I make drones at the wrong moment. Like when I try to go muta I always lose to some roach push and when I go roach I lose to muta. And it seems everytime I scout and try to adapt to the opponent I'm too late. It just feels I don't understand the basic thought behind the matchup.
Like in zvp I still know these basic guidelines, like deny his third, deny his gas, scout at this timing, if hasn't taken a third at this mark prepare for x. If u see x assimiliators this is happening. But in zvz I don't understand shit.
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