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On November 01 2011 03:26 RuneZerg wrote:
not a chance im gonna make corruptors... too immobile and useless in every other aspect than driving off phoenix harass... sry but really dont think thats the answer
But its actually what you should do... If you see him going heavy phoenix (like heavy more then 4) i make corruptors vs it. Its better then making hydra's (hydra's being slow ans mass phoenix will kill your hydra's for awhile before you get that critical mass). Then take more bases.
His answer was correct and its not like you have to make many as corruptors are a lot stronger then phoenixes.
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Anyone have thoughts on how to deal with the following in ZvP?:
Map is Antiga Shipyard. They start out with FFE, fairly heavy defense. This allows you a very quick third (like by 4:30). They hide robo tech, you manage to scout it. See a few immortals and stalkers. Colossus are added shortly thereafter, and they proceed to take their third. This is hard to stop because it's so close to their natural and the colossus/immortal are a strong defense. Mutas are weak to heavy cannons. From here you take another base, possibly two.
Here's where the real problem comes. You max out and they max out. You have roach corruptor ling (lings for runby and surround). The engagement comes and you utterly obliterate the colossus - they're practically useless - only now you've got roaches and some lings vs immortal stalker and your army took the worst of the engagement (typical for a 200/200 fight).
BLs came too late for me. Can try earlier.
Ultras fall hard to Immortal.
Mutas come too late to do significant damage - but willing to concede that may be incorrect.
Lings die to Colossus.
Roach die to Immortal/Stalker.
Corruptors took up crucial supply. By the time I morphed them to BLs I lost two bases.
Hydras would die to Colossus.
So, is the answer here to get that third up and just endlessly pressure their third? Is that possible without crippling your econ mid/late game, or is there an army comp I'm not considering?
Thanks in advance.
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On November 01 2011 03:29 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 03:26 RuneZerg wrote:
not a chance im gonna make corruptors... too immobile and useless in every other aspect than driving off phoenix harass... sry but really dont think thats the answer But its actually what you should do... If you see him going heavy phoenix (like heavy more then 4) i make corruptors vs it. Its better then making hydra's (hydra's being slow ans mass phoenix will kill your hydra's for awhile before you get that critical mass). Then take more bases. His answer was correct and its not like you have to make many as corruptors are a lot stronger then phoenixes.
"useless in every other aspect than driving off phoenix harass"
Bingo. Your goal at this point IS just to make a handful of corruptors to fend off pheonix while expanding/droning. Air play, for now, is basically shut down as double stargate pheonix > mutas.
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i just lost to an army of maruader/hellion/thor. which compositions shuold i have went, i did ling/bling/muta/infestor but those came out too late any help so this doesn't happen again?
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On November 01 2011 09:32 Mvrio wrote:
i just lost to an army of maruader/hellion/thor. which compositions shuold i have went, i did ling/bling/muta/infestor but those came out too late any help so this doesn't happen again?
Roach/infestor/ling is your best option there but if you scouted multiple Factories you could have probably cleaned that up with just roach infestor.
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 01 2011 03:01 Amaterasu1234 wrote:Notes ( I'll leave these here so you'll know what I was thinking as the game goes on): your overlord scouting patterns are EXTREMELY dangerous! Hence the reason you got one sniped. You haven't even scouted the front of his base by 7 minutes, so you have no idea what on earth he's doing...yet you have 4 lings...use them Roaches + spines is overkill and hurts your economy. One or the other other will work in the early game. With absolutely no information on what he's doing, you makes roaches and lings...and do nothing with them...if they're going to sit around, they might as well be drones... Then you drop spores at 9 minutes...for what? Your third is extremely late considering he hasn't attacked by 12 minutes... You traded very inefficently your first engage, and you didn't have a third You never take the left side tower You respond to the second engagement too late, if you'd have moved faster, you probably could have caught him unsieged... Counterattack failed 'cause you threw too many units at the planetary fortress and the lone tank...I think if you'd went straight for his main, you could have done some insane damage, if not won the game right there.... ------------------------------------------------- Overviews: So, you had virtually no scouting information and, instead, try to metagame him by making units at a time you think he's pushing, which resulted in a cancelled third, a barely successful defense and you being behind economically. In this position, you take your third as you should, and proceed to simply move drones to your third rather than saturate it with larvae, keeping you in your economic situation, while continuing to pump units while he takes his third. Since you never took the left tower, you saw this engagement a bit late but you come out quite on top anyway. Then you wait for your larvae to pop before counterattacking, which is successful, except for the fact that you go for the planetary fortress instead of his main and his natural. From here, you attempt to prevent him from taking more bases, but it's wearing you down as you spend thousands on sacrificing lings, in the end, your low economy costing you the game. Potential fixes: Scout more. Use those lings to figure what he's doing. Sacrifice overlords to get inside his base. If you see a fast expand, usual response is to take a quick third, especially if they don't bother you with hellions. Attacks often come between 9-11 minutes. Believe it or not, you should have ~55 drones by 8:30, at which point, you should be taking your third, and making only lings. By being on top of your scouting, you'll know whether or not he'll be pushing soon. Either way, by 16 minutes, you should have 70+ drones as you drone hardcore after you crush his first attack. From there, your strategy should work well as it's the same one I use 
TL;DR: You tried to press your perceived advantages (based on limited information without the economy to back what you were doing. You made around 50-55 drones the entire game...you need 70+. And, unless you're absolutely sure you're going to bust it, stop attacking into planetary fortresses. Scouting, and understanding what you see, will help you with all of this
Thanks for the detailed feedback bro, was seeing the replay again with ur comments.- I had not scouted as this was my friend who I was playing against . I got roach + spine as I die a lot to BF helions and spore for banshee .. will take drone more and better engagement ....thanks a ton!
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In ZvP, against FFE, I get a third around ~30 supply and get quick +1 melee and stick to roach/ling off 3-bases.
My question is when should I start my lair according to what I scout? If I see 1 or 2 VR harass, I'll start my lair asap and drone like mad.
However, if I scout or suspect heavy gateway +1 push, is there any point to even getting a lair?
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On November 01 2011 15:30 HelloSon wrote:
In ZvP, against FFE, I get a third around ~30 supply and get quick +1 melee and stick to roach/ling off 3-bases.
My question is when should I start my lair according to what I scout? If I see 1 or 2 VR harass, I'll start my lair asap and drone like mad.
However, if I scout or suspect heavy gateway +1 push, is there any point to even getting a lair?
I saw stephano using a 2 base ling bling bust vs a FFE , seemed very good. I did the same thing in a game recently drone up , delay speed to get 2nd hatch and mass blings outside base, go for the weak pylon and thats game. He may have voids just get 2 extra queens..hope this helps
http://drop.sc/51309
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On November 01 2011 15:30 HelloSon wrote:
In ZvP, against FFE, I get a third around ~30 supply and get quick +1 melee and stick to roach/ling off 3-bases.
My question is when should I start my lair according to what I scout? If I see 1 or 2 VR harass, I'll start my lair asap and drone like mad.
However, if I scout or suspect heavy gateway +1 push, is there any point to even getting a lair?
If you are doing delayed gas (I do this a lot nestea style) they don't start their lair until 9 - 9:30 in game time.
You should always sacrifice an overlord to see if you can get information, if you see nothing (and he's not getting +1 attack at the forge in his nexus) I would place 1 spore at each base. This does not put you behind or anything if you are doing a nestea delayed lair build as you get an excess minerals anyway so this doesn't hurt.
I do it and find it super effective (and its always funny when they go dt's and it gets shut down hard  )
But personally I would get +1 ranged instead of melee xD
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Hi guys,
got a couple of questions:
on z v p, when going against FFE: I have been experimenting 3 evos, for maximum upgrades. and pretty much like it. the idea is to target a strong late game. (for instance having both efficient broodlings and roaches quickly + the fact that you kind of always need roaches and zerglings in the match up (and therefore both upgrades). what do you think about it? I feel that when on three bases, you have enough gas to do it. After all, one upgrade is nothing but the cost of one infestor...
on z v t against mech, i am often going mass banelings in late game, instead of obvious broodlords and messy ultralisks. what do you guys think about that?
(low master)
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On November 01 2011 17:47 Macpo wrote:Hi guys, got a couple of questions: on z v p, when going against FFE: I have been experimenting 3 evos, for maximum upgrades. and pretty much like it. the idea is to target a strong late game. (for instance having both efficient broodlings and roaches quickly + the fact that you kind of always need roaches and zerglings in the match up (and therefore both upgrades). what do you think about it? I feel that when on three bases, you have enough gas to do it. After all, one upgrade is nothing but the cost of one infestor... on z v t against mech, i am often going mass banelings in late game, instead of obvious broodlords and messy ultralisks. what do you guys think about that? (low master)
IMO roach with banelings can be very good with good surrounds and ect.
However To make it work I feel like you need to get roach speed, sling, baneling speed, and burrow asap. So when do you throw down your three' evo's?
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IMO roach with banelings can be very good with good surrounds and ect.
However To make it work I feel like you need to get roach speed, sling, baneling speed, and burrow asap. So when do you throw down your three' evo's?
Maybe I am wasn't clear in my initial post, but 3 evos were for z v p, not for z v t . Also, banelings in z v t (mech) are supposed to be for late game, when terran hasn't ended the game on the first push, and when you are on around 5/6 bases, with at least three mining. to deal with the initial pressure, i just go mass upgraded roach with burrow.
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Mid master zerg
After season 4 went live I've been losing 90% or more of my ZvPs.
I just don't know what units to focus on, I like going roach ling, but idk what changed about protoss playstyle or w/e I always get owned really bad.
Can anyone tell me what's the standard ZvP atm?
I mostly die while trying to get my infestors to a critical mass, or just by big gateway pushes.
I feel so lost atm.
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On November 01 2011 15:55 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 15:30 HelloSon wrote:
In ZvP, against FFE, I get a third around ~30 supply and get quick +1 melee and stick to roach/ling off 3-bases.
My question is when should I start my lair according to what I scout? If I see 1 or 2 VR harass, I'll start my lair asap and drone like mad.
However, if I scout or suspect heavy gateway +1 push, is there any point to even getting a lair? If you are doing delayed gas (I do this a lot nestea style) they don't start their lair until 9 - 9:30 in game time. You should always sacrifice an overlord to see if you can get information, if you see nothing (and he's not getting +1 attack at the forge in his nexus) I would place 1 spore at each base. This does not put you behind or anything if you are doing a nestea delayed lair build as you get an excess minerals anyway so this doesn't hurt. I do it and find it super effective (and its always funny when they go dt's and it gets shut down hard ) But personally I would get +1 ranged instead of melee xD
But let's assume he IS getting +1 attack, hasn't done any tech pressure (VRs, dts, etc). so you're suspecting heavy gateway pressure. Is there any point in getting the lair or is it possible to hold off 7-gate with hatch-tech roach/ling?
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well anyway you generally hold off 6 or 7 gate pressure with nothing but roach and lings, don't you? so having no lair doesn't seem to be a problem... Of course you could defend it with something else also, like infestors or hydras, but really I don't think you need them. Actually, I think having a quicker third will even make things easier , cause you can mass units.
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On November 02 2011 00:21 Macpo wrote:
well anyway you generally hold off 6 or 7 gate pressure with nothing but roach and lings, don't you? so having no lair doesn't seem to be a problem... Of course you could defend it with something else also, like infestors or hydras, but really I don't think you need them. Actually, I think having a quicker third will even make things easier , cause you can mass units.
Yeah just start your lair at 9 minutes - 9:30 whether he is doing it or not. You can hold it off without lair no problem as long as you macro correctly and what not
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Someone please help me in ZvP. It is absolutely my worst match up and is keeping me from getting into Masters. I win like 90% of my ZvZ and ZvT however my ZvP is like 30-50%. I'll win the majority of my ZvT and ZvZ then play 4 ZvP in a row and get rofl stomped which just kills my confidence.
My main problem is that I'm scared of the protoss push. At the start I'm watching for the 4 gate, I don't know how to definitely tell if it's coming, but I heard that if they go zealot stalker for their first 2 gate units, it usually signals a 4 gate, however I don't find this to be true sometimes. So if they don't 4 gate, I have to watch out for a 6 gate, or if the FFE then I'm definitely watching for the 6 gate + variations which happens 50% of the time to me.
I'm so bad at defending 6 gate. I'm wondering if at 9:00 mins I should just mass as many roaches and lings as I can. Thing is if they add in some immortals (2-3) my lower roach numbers get rofl stomped. Furthermore, if I make it past the 6 gate, they are usually teching to colossus and maybe adding 2-3 voids. If they push out again, I usually have mass roach which gets mauled by FF and colossi + voids. Basically I try to get brood lord, infestor, roach tech every game, however I'm just really "scared" of the protoss that won't let that happen and go for all kinds of early mid + mid game pushes. I guess I'm lost on the logical progression of zerg in ZvP
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On November 02 2011 10:57 Chinesewonder wrote:
Someone please help me in ZvP. It is absolutely my worst match up and is keeping me from getting into Masters. I win like 90% of my ZvZ and ZvT however my ZvP is like 30-50%. I'll win the majority of my ZvT and ZvZ then play 4 ZvP in a row and get rofl stomped which just kills my confidence.
My main problem is that I'm scared of the protoss push. At the start I'm watching for the 4 gate, I don't know how to definitely tell if it's coming, but I heard that if they go zealot stalker for their first 2 gate units, it usually signals a 4 gate, however I don't find this to be true sometimes. So if they don't 4 gate, I have to watch out for a 6 gate, or if the FFE then I'm definitely watching for the 6 gate + variations which happens 50% of the time to me.
I'm so bad at defending 6 gate. I'm wondering if at 9:00 mins I should just mass as many roaches and lings as I can. Thing is if they add in some immortals (2-3) my lower roach numbers get rofl stomped. Furthermore, if I make it past the 6 gate, they are usually teching to colossus and maybe adding 2-3 voids. If they push out again, I usually have mass roach which gets mauled by FF and colossi + voids. Basically I try to get brood lord, infestor, roach tech every game, however I'm just really "scared" of the protoss that won't let that happen and go for all kinds of early mid + mid game pushes. I guess I'm lost on the logical progression of zerg in ZvP
I'm around the same level and this is what works for me. If they don't fast expand, I scout for their unit composition. Remember that the 4gate cannot be aggressive until warp tech is complete. Also, if they push out with a probe, it means they're going to be aggressive. Always keep in mind that overlord placement HELPS a lot. Good overlord placements can spot for expansions. Keep them near P's base so you can sac them at any time.
To counter the 6gate, my best bet is to take a quick 3rd. They cannot be very aggressive in the beginning. Saturate the base with pure drones. You do not need to get gas until very late. This will optimize the drone count and econ for later on. When they attack, you should be able to overwhelm them with roach/lings. If they don't attack, you can possibly max out 200/200 at 13mins and overwhelm Protoss. The only thing you should be careful of is vr or dts and do not get supply blocked.. This has been very successful for me, even against masters Protoss players. Maybe you can give it a try.
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Hey fellow Zergs, quick question regarding a funny game I played tonight.
P went FFE, I went 3 hatch hoping for an 8-8:30 lair, and then I saw him take a 7:45 3rd base defended with Zealots and Cannons.
What do you think is the best response?
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EPT
