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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
Hey guys,
i have a question regarding hotkeys for injiects.
Often in streams i see a huge variety of setups for macroing, and i consider those 3 styles the mainstream:
-all queens to 1 key
-each queen to 1 key (5,6,7...)
-each hatch to 1 key (5,6,7....)
actually im using the 2nd method, and im doing quite good after months of all queens 1 key (which i find terrible in lategame, just a personal feel obv).
But the more i play, the more i see the advantages of method 3: every hatch has his own key.
I just cant find any downside:
-apart from having the normal all hatch on 4 production, you can istantly build units where you want. This can be very useful in the typical situation where you are contained by the terran early midgame push, who often cut reinforcements from the 3d. How many times you just mass produced lings, only to see them coming from the 3d and get destroyed by tanks? and im dont even talking about droning and the utility of producing them on selected hatch.
-hatchery is way more durable than a queen. This mean less rebinding queens when killed by drops/etc.
-istant jump at the base you want: save camera space for other locations.
-if you cant live without queens hotkeyed, you can always bind all of them to 1 control group (i use the next to 1 on the left, \ in italian layout) for tumors or better defense against for example banshees.
And i dont think is it slower for inject. 55, mouse square, inject.... takes what? 0.3 seconds more than hotkeyed queen?
The only downside i can imagine is when you got overseers/infestor/etc near your queen, that means you select them along with the queen and instead of injiect you do nothing or a fungal or changeling... but if i remember well, queen get priority when grouped with other casters so its a no problem i think.
I really want to start with this setup, anyone use it and can share experience or info? or explain me something i miss? Keep in mind im a diamond zerg, so i dont have tons of apm...
thanks (sorry for my grammar).
EDIT aaahh sorry just found a recent topic talking about it 
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Hey there, I'm just getting back into SC2 after quite a few month break and I was wondering if anyone could hook me up with current openings to use against certain races on certain maps and positions etc. Are strategies generally the same and what new builds do what I have to worry about and react to, and how to react to them. Thanks.
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I'm rank 1-15 diamond Zerg as I've had a lot of trouble with the following stuff recently:
Vs Protoss Forge Fast Expand - I always have trouble with this as I never know whether my opponent is going 3 base turtle/2 base 8 gateways or 2 stargate into expand. Are there any key signs of knowing what they'll be going? I'm always behind on economy because I'm unsure of what my opponent is doing, I scout with an overseer but usually when I see what my opponent is up to, it's too late...any quicker way? or should I get my lair faster? Also what should my unit composition be? When it's late game, my opponent just uses his blink stalkers to snipe my expansions while my brood lords are moving?
Vs Terran Mech - The "attack from different angles/positions" never works because at least at this level, whenever I do, my opponent literally all in's with scv's the moment I harass with either muta's or nydus canals and uses they win - Also end game what should my unit composition be, I try brood lords which are successful but my opponent usually masses vikings to the extreme while still having a solid ground force.
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On November 03 2011 02:45 RunAwayCactuar wrote:
I'm rank 1-15 diamond Zerg as I've had a lot of trouble with the following stuff recently:
Vs Protoss Forge Fast Expand - I always have trouble with this as I never know whether my opponent is going 3 base turtle/2 base 8 gateways or 2 stargate into expand. Are there any key signs of knowing what they'll be going? I'm always behind on economy because I'm unsure of what my opponent is doing, I scout with an overseer but usually when I see what my opponent is up to, it's too late...any quicker way? or should I get my lair faster? Also what should my unit composition be? When it's late game, my opponent just uses his blink stalkers to snipe my expansions while my brood lords are moving?
Vs Terran Mech - The "attack from different angles/positions" never works because at least at this level, whenever I do, my opponent literally all in's with scv's the moment I harass with either muta's or nydus canals and uses they win - Also end game what should my unit composition be, I try brood lords which are successful but my opponent usually masses vikings to the extreme while still having a solid ground force.
Vs Protoss Forge Fast Expand - You have a few options
1.) You can cheese and 6,7 pool however if it fails its GG so I tend to stay away from it unless I'm stupid frustrated with ZvP because i've played the same matchup 10 times in a row !
2.) Typical Roach Ling Bust
3.) Speedling, Bane (However if this fails it sets your back ALOT if you don't do enough damage) For instance you don't build enough banelings to break through the building you want  I would suggest playing the comp and find out how many banes each building takes to bust if you plan on using this. However it can work real well because sometimes based on how the toss setup the wall you can knock out 1-2 pylons with the bust and supply block them.
4.) I'm working on publishing a new build ZvP vs FEE its an alteration on the Roach Ling timing bust but it comes a little later and you hit the front with a decoy army while you nydus in the back. Its been pretty effective for me at a high diamond / low master level. This only works with the maps where the bases are larger and he doesn't have easy pylon vision everywhere.
ZvT mech
Depending on your build you have a few options. If your using the mass ling 2 evo build you can either commit to TONS of speedlings, banes, and inforestors. I mean TONS and relight on the fact that you will have 3-4 base up really early to dispatch his army when it rolls out (The banes destory the hellions first then smash into the thors to kill repairing SVC's dmg thors for lings to clean up. This does require ALOT of banes tho. A good example of this is a recent Nestea matchup where he did this. However with that said when you sack your OL at 6min-7min and see 2-3 factory and few marines you know exactly what is coming switch up to ling roach baneling or ling roach infestor. I usally go roach line infestor with the odd baneling to help with stupid scv's. Even tho the NP range has been badly nurfed if you have roach to soak up the damage while you can get your infestors behind safely in range you can still turn the tide of the battle really fast this way!. Also when fighting roach vs thor dont let roach just A-Move or attack. You have to focus fire each Thor and dispatch them asap.
Another option is TangSC 3 barrel bust build which is a roach ling baneling build till tier 3 ultra's this is pretty safe vs Mech and will hopefully do enough damage to the T in the early stages till you can get a big lead to smash his end army.
Hope this helps
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On November 03 2011 02:45 RunAwayCactuar wrote:Vs Protoss Forge Fast Expand - I always have trouble with this as I never know whether my opponent is going 3 base turtle/2 base 8 gateways or 2 stargate into expand. Are there any key signs of knowing what they'll be going? I'm always behind on economy because I'm unsure of what my opponent is doing, I scout with an overseer but usually when I see what my opponent is up to, it's too late...any quicker way? or should I get my lair faster? Also what should my unit composition be? When it's late game, my opponent just uses his blink stalkers to snipe my expansions while my brood lords are moving?
I've had a lot of success at the mid-diamond level with a gasless double expand that I saw in a Ret vs Minigun replay on shakura's from MLG. Sac 1-2 overlord at main and natural at 40ish supply to see whether they've chosen a tech path, if not you can expect a mass gateway push. In ret's build he took a warren/evo/2xgas at 55-60 supply and another gas at 70 supply. You can add spores to defend DT/voids. The key is to stay roach/ling until you have a big supply lead and then tech. If the protoss attacks, you need to overwhelm with units, you can't try to out-tech him. You should be able to stay roach/ling and tech to spire/hive/BL beginning around the time you take your 4th base and add-on 4-6th gases. Add on corruptors and continue expanding if they choose to not attack and try to turtle to a 3rd base/colossus. An archon/zealot/HT composition is more difficult to deal with, but with average micro and concaves you should be able to handle it. Roaches deal pretty well with archon/storms, you just have to keep your lings engaged on flanks and not running into the zealot line where they'll get crushed before dealing real damage.
The big weakness of this build is a lack of units to defend drops. If you scout the protoss going air, you can add more spores and build queens to keep production of drones/ground units up. However, if protoss start doing any sort of early 2base prism/zealot drop play, this build has to play a lot safer (this build is crazy greedy and relying on protoss not moving out at all).
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I've been dealing with a lot of FFE into double stargate recently, and won versus all of them. Essentially you have two choices - an all in or an early third. I prefer an early third (somewhere in the realms of 6 minutes) since it has better success. Since he has a forge, you need an evolution chamber anyway to have any hope with keeping up with upgrades. I also like to build "safety spores" in each base, since it covers 2/3 of the transitions he can do (it covers DTs and stargate) and is a relatively small investment. Even if he doesn't do either of them, you need them if the game continues on, since late game DT harrass can really do damage to you.
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I am a newcomer to the swarm, and while I was high diamond as protoss, I am only in gold on my zerg account. I am quickly making progress, and the race is making more and more sense to me with each game I play. I have a few, very wordy, questions that have been bugging me as of late however:
1. I have been doing 14g/14p in all matchups with the intention of learning one build like the back of my hand until I get to diamond as zerg. I know this is the best way to improve, as it's how i got to diamond as protoss from low bronze. 14/14 is safe and standard ZvP and ZvZ which is why i favor it. however, in watching zerg streams, i consistently see zergs whose play i respect (Destiny, Sheth, Catz etc.) doing 15 hatch against terran, and rarely the 14/14. is there a major disadvantage to 14/14 against terran? is 15 hatch always safe? I am scared of 2 rax bunker rushes killing me, which is a large reason i don't 15 hatch. should I learn 15 hatch now so that i can learn the build, or would it be safe/smart to continue 14/14 in all matchups?
2. I have been enjoying ling/bling/muta in ZvT, as it is effective against the standard marine/tank. The harass is fun, and powerful, and I feel in control of the game flow against marine/tank compositions. however, I have not felt comfortable with ling/bling/muta against terran mass mech styles. the fact that terran gets more thors makes my muta harass less effective, and the lack of marines makes my banes seem pointless. plus blue flame hellions make my mass lings sad. should I employ a different tactic against mass mech compositions? destiny's fast infestors with 3 base broodlords seems like it would be a good counter, but he relies on lings as his army backbone, which once again get roasted by hellions. roach/infestor sounds decent, but tanks are really good against my roaches. so I'm not really sure what to do against heavy mech compositions. any help would be greatly appreciated.
3. finally, what is the best indicator to scout that terran is going mass mech? obviously if I see him with 4 factories or so, or his army composition being without marines, then that's a given, but is there any other give aways? If he opens reactor-hellion, or fast blue flame drop, is it safe to expect mass mech?
thank you for any help, and a big thanks to Saracen for making this thread
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Hi swarm mate
1. I would recommend going 15 hatch in z v t, which is really the standard nowadays. It gives you better economy. Once in a while you will meet 2 rax, but it doesn't happen that much on ladder, and anyway you should really learn how to defend it. in these two rax builds, 11/11 rax are the most difficult to hold, but generally terran will go for 11/13 or 12/14, which are really defendable.
In other match ups, 14 gas 14 pool is more standard, although 14 gas 14 pool is somewhat out of fashion in zvp, as it is quite useless to have early gas (i.e. speedling) vs Forge Fast expanding protosses. But maybe you can change that later, and focus on other more important aspects right now. Just to give an idea, other possibilities would be 11 pool - 18 hatch. or 14 pool without gas (and hatch around 20).
In z v z, 14 gas 14 pool will bring you to aggressive positions against hatch first people, but it's completely playable.
2. Muta - ling - bling is not a standard composition vs mech. the backbone of your army should rather be roaches. That makes things a bit more difficult, because it means that your tech route against mech is completely different, and that you have to scout tech as soon as possible. Then, different options. I personnally like to go only mass upgraded roaches with burrow move (you go under terran's tanks and unburrow). But you can add here and there: muta harass; infestors withneural parasite to engage thors (a bit tough to micro) and infested terrans to spam on tanks. in later game, you should think about broodlords, but terran will expect it; so watch out for ghosts and vikings. If there are too many, you may want to go to ultralisks straight (I like mass banelings personnally, but it's not standard).
3. to get that a terran is going mech: the easiest way by far is sending an overlord there (it's not so difficult is it? you just need to have a well placed overlord!). you can poke with zerglings, if you are lucky you will see something. First early helion harass is not a clue; but often, if you see the guy harassing again, after the first harass has been shut down, with new helions and blue flame, then it's a good clue.
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I have a question in regards to Ling/Muta/Ultra style of play.
What happens when the other person goes for Roach/Infestor? I know if they go hydras, you get speedbanes, and with lots of mutas you rofl stomp them. But what do you do when infestors are in play?
I have many games where I have just a huge, huge lead going muta style right. And then they are stuck on 2 bases, forever, and I just keep them in the stone age. But eventually, they get a large enough roach/infestor army, and it will always come before 3 base ultras come out, and it kills you.
What do you do? If you contain them on 2 base, do you just respond with roach/infestor? Because I know the 'right' response when they go roach/hydra, is to go speedbanes. But what if you see it's roach/infestor stuck on 2 base? Idra has a few videos where he talks about muta/ling style, and there was a game where he said about "he's gettin hydras, so i get speedbanes, if he was going infestors it would be another story"... so what's the story if they go infestors?
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well I would say that the idea of going mutas in Z v Z is not to mass mutas as you would in Z v T, but rather make around 8 or 10 mutas to deny the opponent 3rd, while you are taking yours; clean his overlords, etc. Then, the standard thing would be switching back to roach infestors, with you having a macro advantage.
So if you see infestors when going mutas, just make more infestors at home+ kill his infestors with your mutas. it's kind of micro intensive, but send 1 or 2 mutas at a time, so that fungal will be a waste for him.
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I'm having trouble knowing how to fight against turtling protoss who work up to voidray/colossus. For instance, on metalopolis, they do that 3 gateway wall-off and it makes it extremely painful to attack into that small choke in between bases. It feels like roaches/lings/hydras run into a wall and get nothing done. Should i be relying heavily on infestors or mutas perhaps? My ZvP feels so stagnant like the old deathball days and I have no idea why I'm losing so badly all of a sudden..
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well I would say that the idea of going mutas in Z v Z is not to mass mutas as you would in Z v T, but rather make around 8 or 10 mutas to deny the opponent 3rd, while you are taking yours; clean his overlords, etc. Then, the standard thing would be switching back to roach infestors, with you having a macro advantage.
I think the pros don't do this though. Idra for example stays on ling/bling/muta, from what I've seen. I've never seen him face someone who got infestors in a zvz though. I know that muta/ling/bane rapes roach/hydra, but i'm not sure about roach/infestor or roach/hydra/infestor (r/i is obviously stronger, but just haven't seen either).
I'm having trouble knowing how to fight against turtling protoss who work up to voidray/colossus. For instance, on metalopolis, they do that 3 gateway wall-off and it makes it extremely painful to attack into that small choke in between bases. It feels like roaches/lings/hydras run into a wall and get nothing done. Should i be relying heavily on infestors or mutas perhaps? My ZvP feels so stagnant like the old deathball days and I have no idea why I'm losing so badly all of a sudden..
I go for roach/banelingrain/infestor on 3 base. It's hard when they take a third because it's basically even economy, but that's what sucks in ZvP imo - they have super supply efficient armies so 75 probes doesn't really hurt them, but I always feel so damn fucked when I have 75-80 drones. I lose a lot of games because I morph them all into spines when it's like 7+ bases, and the big trade happens and I suddenly have no money, but 15 broodlords means, with about 8-10 infestors as support, you will have ZERO ground army, so if you have a huge roach army, you have to throw it away, which sucks because then they'll just push and kill you before broodlords are done, so it's this weird really shitty spot.
But I'm not sure how to play against deathballs of stalker/colossi or VR/colossi. I just go roach/banelingrain/infestor. I think ling/banelingrain/infestor is way too fragile once the colossi numbers reach a critical mass, and baneling rain only does so much against colossi. I never see pro ZvPs go to colossi deathballs (stalker or VR), kind of bothers me.
There's not a single game where someone gets Nestea's opponent gets colossi, for example (unless it's 1-2 colossi and the robo is surrounded by 20 roaches or hydras). I think nestea just does 2 base roach/hydra all-ins against protoss or 3 base mass roach/hydra against opponents who don't get colossi, for whatever weird reason (they get carriers like hongun...). I think the only game where somenoe gets a colossi army going in a ZvP in the GSL was a gstl game with leenock, where he 'won' the game with just a huge, huge lead, and just lost (he did make some blunders though, but it was sad to see). I think youd on't see this stuff in the top, GSL level because they all just roach/ling all-in eachother or the protoss does some 2 base all-in with mass gateway or stargate.
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On November 03 2011 17:05 Belial88 wrote:
I have a question in regards to Ling/Muta/Ultra style of play.
What happens when the other person goes for Roach/Infestor? I know if they go hydras, you get speedbanes, and with lots of mutas you rofl stomp them. But what do you do when infestors are in play?
I have many games where I have just a huge, huge lead going muta style right. And then they are stuck on 2 bases, forever, and I just keep them in the stone age. But eventually, they get a large enough roach/infestor army, and it will always come before 3 base ultras come out, and it kills you.
What do you do? If you contain them on 2 base, do you just respond with roach/infestor? Because I know the 'right' response when they go roach/hydra, is to go speedbanes. But what if you see it's roach/infestor stuck on 2 base? Idra has a few videos where he talks about muta/ling style, and there was a game where he said about "he's gettin hydras, so i get speedbanes, if he was going infestors it would be another story"... so what's the story if they go infestors?
Only Diamond-Eu here, the most similar situation I have to handle (on abyssal cavern):
He was on 2-3 mining bases and me on 3-5 when he moves out with a scary army of Roach/Infestor. (without hydra)
=> I send 1-2 on each infestor, taking care of keeping them unstack
=> By the time he was near my bases, his infestors were dead or out of energy so I can send all my mutas and ling and bane killing the remaining Roaches. I'm pretty sure it wasn't cost effective but mass Muta/ling/bling against Roach I have always ended with a pretty significant economical advantage.
Against a Roach/Hydra/infestor sending only few muta on infestor doesn't work, but it's a lot of gas.to gathered with only 2 bases. Can you have a significant army of those on only 2 bases without being totally outmacro ?
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zvp vs ffe builds
like on maps where you don't have a close 3rd because blizzard likes them rocks or whatever, where do you take them...
like shattered temple and shakuras.
- the nearest nat for ST seems veeeeeeeery far off, and the actual 3rd takes forever to knock down
- on taldarim personally I've been just making it next to my 3rd's rocks...should I do that on ST?
- on shakuras, the 3rd imo is pretty far to protect with queens vs like Stargate opennigs, etc
- etc
o_o?
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Quick question about a build I've encountered a few times lately:
ZvP: 1-base zealot/immortal (Various timings, sometimes with lots of zealots, sometimes with fewer zealots and more sentries, sometimes with +1 weapons, usually around 5-7 immortals)
Every time I've faced this it has crushed me utterly. The spine crawlers I make in anticipation of a 4-gate may as well not exist, and any number of lings I manage to get seem to evaporate without achieving anything, even if I keep them out on the map and flank the immortals (which I did every time).
I don't generally ask for help because it's always really obvious how I could have avoided losing (scouting better, not getting supply blocked, timing droning/unit production better etc), but this time I'm stumped: it really doesn't feel like doing what I'm already doing, better, would make enough of a difference.
What am I missing? Are lings and spines the way to go?
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On November 03 2011 23:55 Umpteen wrote:
Quick question about a build I've encountered a few times lately:
ZvP: 1-base zealot/immortal (Various timings, sometimes with lots of zealots, sometimes with fewer zealots and more sentries, sometimes with +1 weapons, usually around 5-7 immortals)
Every time I've faced this it has crushed me utterly. The spine crawlers I make in anticipation of a 4-gate may as well not exist, and any number of lings I manage to get seem to evaporate without achieving anything, even if I keep them out on the map and flank the immortals (which I did every time).
I don't generally ask for help because it's always really obvious how I could have avoided losing (scouting better, not getting supply blocked, timing droning/unit production better etc), but this time I'm stumped: it really doesn't feel like doing what I'm already doing, better, would make enough of a difference.
What am I missing? Are lings and spines the way to go?
Personally after the latest infestor nurf I find the ZvP meta game has shifted agian back to the way it was at release where it is roach, hydra, corruptor and any misscalculation in your numbers results in you getting crushed  The death ball is back agian and I find now its worse then ever do to the evolution of the protoss metagame. Where in beta/release you would have sentry, stalker, collo, vr, now you add blink into that mix and it seems like you get no where when you engage this I have been struggling with the protoss death ball agian and have just opted for Nestea style where you do a ling roach all-in, bane allin, or a roach hydra 3 base all in just before collo hit. As if it goes into late game I find myself hopelessly throwing armies away at the death ball.
After watching Destiny's stream yesterday my fears where confirmed when he was 5base to 3 base in a ZvP high masters/GM match and he BARELY beat the toss. The armout of army's and unit transitions required was rediculous. To make matters worse the toss NEVER went past 3 base and was resource hungry for over 10-15min in the game!
If anyone else has a good awnser to the deathball agian I would love to hear it
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To add to my previous post, I think the only reason why the blizzard ZvP numbers are closer to 50/50 according to server stats is because a large amount of Protoss just haven't learned how to stop the 2 hatch/ 3 hatch all-ins yet and I would be willing to bet any the win% ratio would be something like 70%Protoss, 30%Zerg if it was a straight up macro game and they went into late games.
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Before whining (and I say that in a friendly , zerg-compassionate way), I think we should consider other possibilities. For instance, at low master level, I find it not too hard to transition quickly to broodlords, with a heavy macro early game: if you go on three bases, at 10 min your lair is done and bases are almost saturated, and while harassing, putting pressure and defending, you go for the tech. at 11 infestation pit is ready; at 12 hive is finished, at 14 you have broodlords. Then mass up broodlords , corruptors and spines, and slowly go for the win (as Stephano did against kiwikaki for instance). You can't go for a quick win though, as you need money to remax broodlords, and enough spines to avoid counters, but otherwise I would say at that point, odds are in zerg's favor.
The hard part is probably this 4/5 min time window between 10 and 15; but with the help of spines, harass, and corruptors that should come at around 13; I find it ok, especially as colossi shouldn't be out before 11/12.
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So, this happened to me:
Terran walls in.
Bunkerrush (1r, I scouted Gas) into Reactorfactory into Techlabbed Starport. I scouted it all.
Now, I prepare for banshees, get 2 more queens, build 2 spores and get an overseer. Start Spire.
Mr Terran runs in with 5 Ravens with +2 building armor researches, kills my main with AUTOTURRETS!!!! (WTF WHY DOES ENERGY KILL BASES?!?!?!?!?!?!?!) and proceeds to do nothing but make turrets and PFs. When He's at 140 supply (I had been at 200 for a minute or 2) he just queues Drops all over the map into my Mineral line. On 6 bases. It's BFhellions, my Zerglings instadie, my mutalisk were harrassing him, so, he kills my economy and I attack into his base. I kill everything he has, but the 3rd wall he has made me run out of banes.
How the FUCK do I deal with this bullshit? How do I kill loads of stimmed marines and blueflame hellions in all my minerallines against a fortified noob with half my apm? I just CAN'T attack, and he just queues drops. That's ALL.
Time for the Viper, I want to start attacking these pathetics pieces of shit before he finds it time to fight :@
I'm so angry at this!
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I currently have the feeling that Zerg is weaker than P and T in the early AND the late game, and has the advantage in the midgame. However, because of walls and turtling, T/P just doesn't move out in the midgame and proceeds to 1a to victory afterwards?
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EPT
