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On November 04 2011 02:14 ToastieNL wrote:
So, this happened to me:
Terran walls in.
Bunkerrush (1r, I scouted Gas) into Reactorfactory into Techlabbed Starport. I scouted it all.
Now, I prepare for banshees, get 2 more queens, build 2 spores and get an overseer. Start Spire.
Mr Terran runs in with 5 Ravens with +2 building armor researches, kills my main with AUTOTURRETS!!!! (WTF WHY DOES ENERGY KILL BASES?!?!?!?!?!?!?!) and proceeds to do nothing but make turrets and PFs. When He's at 140 supply (I had been at 200 for a minute or 2) he just queues Drops all over the map into my Mineral line. On 6 bases. It's BFhellions, my Zerglings instadie, my mutalisk were harrassing him, so, he kills my economy and I attack into his base. I kill everything he has, but the 3rd wall he has made me run out of banes.
How the FUCK do I deal with this bullshit? How do I kill loads of stimmed marines and blueflame hellions in all my minerallines against a fortified noob with half my apm? I just CAN'T attack, and he just queues drops. That's ALL.
Time for the Viper, I want to start attacking these pathetics pieces of shit before he finds it time to fight :@
I'm so angry at this!
Muta/roach/bane has been my most effective counter to mass air/raven play with blue flame/thor (usually that's the end game comp for them) underneath it.
Roaches deal really well with auto-turrets, tank hunterseekers, obviously are good vs. blue-flame, etc. Mutas take out the ravens and banshees. Banes are for marines (some like to go very raven/banshee heavy and then mineral dump, if you can call it that, into mass marine behind it).
If they aren't using siege tanks, I've actually found hydras to be effective vs. this composition, although infestors are probably as equally good if not better to mix in.
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On November 04 2011 02:14 ToastieNL wrote:
So, this happened to me:
Terran walls in.
Bunkerrush (1r, I scouted Gas) into Reactorfactory into Techlabbed Starport. I scouted it all.
Now, I prepare for banshees, get 2 more queens, build 2 spores and get an overseer. Start Spire.
Mr Terran runs in with 5 Ravens with +2 building armor researches, kills my main with AUTOTURRETS!!!! (WTF WHY DOES ENERGY KILL BASES?!?!?!?!?!?!?!) and proceeds to do nothing but make turrets and PFs. When He's at 140 supply (I had been at 200 for a minute or 2) he just queues Drops all over the map into my Mineral line. On 6 bases. It's BFhellions, my Zerglings instadie, my mutalisk were harrassing him, so, he kills my economy and I attack into his base. I kill everything he has, but the 3rd wall he has made me run out of banes.
How the FUCK do I deal with this bullshit? How do I kill loads of stimmed marines and blueflame hellions in all my minerallines against a fortified noob with half my apm? I just CAN'T attack, and he just queues drops. That's ALL.
Time for the Viper, I want to start attacking these pathetics pieces of shit before he finds it time to fight :@
I'm so angry at this!
You've never heard of Infested Terran spam to kill expos? 
Did you mean you were on 6 bases? Why are you simultaneously mining from 6 bases? 3 at a time is fine.
How do you kill stimmed marines and blueflames hellions with a 60 supply lead? Um, with pretty much anything other than lings and mutas. But particularly Roaches. And if you have mutas you should be able to intercept atleast *some* of his drops, and accept losing the odd hatch now and then.
How did the muta harassment work out? If this Terran is as turtled up as you say I find its a waste of time. Just laugh at all the expensive missile turrets he's set up and kill them with broodlords, banelings or masses of roaches.
You call the Terran a noob with half your APM as if that matters, but he's the one countering your army composition and tactics.
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On November 01 2011 15:54 vahgar.r24 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 15:30 HelloSon wrote:
In ZvP, against FFE, I get a third around ~30 supply and get quick +1 melee and stick to roach/ling off 3-bases.
My question is when should I start my lair according to what I scout? If I see 1 or 2 VR harass, I'll start my lair asap and drone like mad.
However, if I scout or suspect heavy gateway +1 push, is there any point to even getting a lair? I saw stephano using a 2 base ling bling bust vs a FFE , seemed very good. I did the same thing in a game recently drone up , delay speed to get 2nd hatch and mass blings outside base, go for the weak pylon and thats game. He may have voids just get 2 extra queens..hope this helps http://drop.sc/51309
I think he only uses it against protoss when there is open natural and he can get banelings straight into mineral line with nice angle, wouldnt really work so well on shakuras or taldarim altar
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ZvP
I feel I know my ZvP pretty well. so here's my 2 cents.
Whenever toss FFE, the only thing that's stopping you from doing a baneling bust or roach bust is sentries. So if you see he plays greedy (2 stargate, straight colo tech) and doesnt make sentries just do a baneling/roach bust.
IMO, it is pointless to play a toss who goes double stargate and skips sentries; the effort isn't worth it. Just do a baneling bust and stream lings into his base. there's nothing he can do.
Also, leave overlords in his base for as long as you can. He'd need cyber before he can start making units that attack your overlord.
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On November 04 2011 02:10 Macpo wrote:
Before whining (and I say that in a friendly , zerg-compassionate way), I think we should consider other possibilities. For instance, at low master level, I find it not too hard to transition quickly to broodlords, with a heavy macro early game: if you go on three bases, at 10 min your lair is done and bases are almost saturated, and while harassing, putting pressure and defending, you go for the tech. at 11 infestation pit is ready; at 12 hive is finished, at 14 you have broodlords. Then mass up broodlords , corruptors and spines, and slowly go for the win (as Stephano did against kiwikaki for instance). You can't go for a quick win though, as you need money to remax broodlords, and enough spines to avoid counters, but otherwise I would say at that point, odds are in zerg's favor.
The hard part is probably this 4/5 min time window between 10 and 15; but with the help of spines, harass, and corruptors that should come at around 13; I find it ok, especially as colossi shouldn't be out before 11/12.
Really.......REALLY....?? So let me get this straight, what your saying is this:
ZvT we can rarely break a terran till tier 3 because they wall up and turtle with timing pushes, drops, or don't move out till 200/200 to crush zerg, so our only option is to expand like crazy and macro in hopes we survive the horras and crush the push
and
ZvP we can't break the P due to walls, force fields, there units being more cost effective till tier 3, so agian your saying our only option is to expand like crazy survive the horras/timing pushes and hope to cursh them in the end with tier 3 agian,
.... i'm sorry but thats bs and you know it. So lets funnel zerg into the same damn build for 2 races ? yeah thats enjoyable.
If the metagame has resorted to this, blizz needs to go pound some sand and pull there head out of their ass
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Quick question in ZvZ - 6-8 corruptors before pumping mutalisks; good idea, or did I just get lucky?
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On November 04 2011 04:57 rustypipe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 02:10 Macpo wrote:
Before whining (and I say that in a friendly , zerg-compassionate way), I think we should consider other possibilities. For instance, at low master level, I find it not too hard to transition quickly to broodlords, with a heavy macro early game: if you go on three bases, at 10 min your lair is done and bases are almost saturated, and while harassing, putting pressure and defending, you go for the tech. at 11 infestation pit is ready; at 12 hive is finished, at 14 you have broodlords. Then mass up broodlords , corruptors and spines, and slowly go for the win (as Stephano did against kiwikaki for instance). You can't go for a quick win though, as you need money to remax broodlords, and enough spines to avoid counters, but otherwise I would say at that point, odds are in zerg's favor.
The hard part is probably this 4/5 min time window between 10 and 15; but with the help of spines, harass, and corruptors that should come at around 13; I find it ok, especially as colossi shouldn't be out before 11/12. Really.......REALLY....?? So let me get this straight, what your saying is this: ZvT we can rarely break a terran till tier 3 because they wall up and turtle with timing pushes, drops, or don't move out till 200/200 to crush zerg, so our only option is to expand like crazy and macro in hopes we survive the horras and crush the push and ZvP we can't break the P due to walls, force fields, there units being more cost effective till tier 3, so agian your saying our only option is to expand like crazy survive the horras/timing pushes and hope to cursh them in the end with tier 3 agian, .... i'm sorry but thats bs and you know it. So lets funnel zerg into the same damn build for 2 races ? yeah thats enjoyable. If the metagame has resorted to this, blizz needs to go pound some sand and pull there head out of their ass
You pretty much cant break the natural of a toss or terran with tier 2, if he knows what he is doing, and if he plays standard. Unless you try something gimmicky.
But if he goes for a tech cheese or some greedy play, and you respond correctly and quickly, then there's good chance of doing economic damage.
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You can still harass and attack Terrans and protoss using drops or mutalisks and sometimes ling runbys, but you need to be really smart about it. You just cant throw your whole army into it until you know you have the most ridiculous lead ever, if you have that much of a lead its safer just to make sure they can't ever take a third base until you have drops and corrupters and a 4 base economy to keep pumping units til they run out of money, you don't always needs broods vs toss.
VS Terran you can do a lot of the same stuff but if you kill enough tanks or stray marines with muta there comes a point where you can just banelings roaches lings and mutas and just smash his front, once again its best to be on a 3/4 base economy with good saturation at all your bases.
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On November 04 2011 05:01 SnowK wrote:
Quick question in ZvZ - 6-8 corruptors before pumping mutalisks; good idea, or did I just get lucky?
Although you give no indication of any context of this decision what-so-ever, this seems like a terrible, wasteful idea.
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On November 04 2011 05:34 Karak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 05:01 SnowK wrote:
Quick question in ZvZ - 6-8 corruptors before pumping mutalisks; good idea, or did I just get lucky? Although you give no indication of any context of this decision what-so-ever, this seems like a terrible, wasteful idea.
I saw he was going spire.
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On November 03 2011 20:03 zhurai wrote:
zvp vs ffe builds
like on maps where you don't have a close 3rd because blizzard likes them rocks or whatever, where do you take them...
like shattered temple and shakuras.
- the nearest nat for ST seems veeeeeeeery far off, and the actual 3rd takes forever to knock down
- on taldarim personally I've been just making it next to my 3rd's rocks...should I do that on ST?
- on shakuras, the 3rd imo is pretty far to protect with queens vs like Stargate opennigs, etc
- etc
o_o?
ZvP vs ffe idra
15 pool
16 ovie
queen
4 lings
2 hatch at any nat/second queen
macro hatch
dbl gas at 7 min/evo chamber/zergling speed/
+1 second 100 gas
lair/roach warren
make roaches fight off any 2 base all-ins
infest pit at 12:30
stole it from an idra replay, i haven't lost in ZvP vs ffe with it. you can't really do anything vs early stargates on maps with a far third. delay third :/ i haven't found a solution yet.
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On November 04 2011 05:42 SnowK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 05:34 Karak wrote:On November 04 2011 05:01 SnowK wrote:
Quick question in ZvZ - 6-8 corruptors before pumping mutalisks; good idea, or did I just get lucky? Although you give no indication of any context of this decision what-so-ever, this seems like a terrible, wasteful idea. I saw he was going spire.
Depends on the kind of game you are playing really. If you are getting a spire up earlier you get mutalisks, if you get it up later you get corruptors IF you want your opponent to make more mutalisks.
They can be really good as a +1 air carapace corruptor +2 attack roach timing attack in case you are up against a quick mutaliksing player if you have a third base up already. I know that's a fairly niche application, but yeah there you go.
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On November 04 2011 06:16 apalemorning wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 20:03 zhurai wrote:
zvp vs ffe builds
like on maps where you don't have a close 3rd because blizzard likes them rocks or whatever, where do you take them...
like shattered temple and shakuras.
- the nearest nat for ST seems veeeeeeeery far off, and the actual 3rd takes forever to knock down
- on taldarim personally I've been just making it next to my 3rd's rocks...should I do that on ST?
- on shakuras, the 3rd imo is pretty far to protect with queens vs like Stargate opennigs, etc
- etc
o_o? ZvP vs ffe idra 15 pool 16 ovie queen 4 lings 2 hatch at any nat/second queen macro hatch dbl gas at 7 min/evo chamber/zergling speed/ +1 second 100 gas lair/roach warren make roaches fight off any 2 base all-ins infest pit at 12:30 stole it from an idra replay, i haven't lost in ZvP vs ffe with it. you can't really do anything vs early stargates on maps with a far third. delay third :/ i haven't found a solution yet.
That's very inaccurate.
1. You double gas at or put back in gas and take another if you went one gas earlier, at 6:00. 7:00 is too late.
2. You put down both Roach Warren and Evolution Chamber at 7:00.
3. Right when you start your +1 you build a few extra roaches, like 8-10, to be safe. This is before lair.
4. You defend with roaches and lings, not just pure roach. (this actually depends but most of the time)
5. Infestation pit doesn't have a "set" timing at 12:30. It's very wrong to say timings like that, that late in the game.
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On November 04 2011 05:09 Deatheus89 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 04:57 rustypipe wrote:On November 04 2011 02:10 Macpo wrote:
Before whining (and I say that in a friendly , zerg-compassionate way), I think we should consider other possibilities. For instance, at low master level, I find it not too hard to transition quickly to broodlords, with a heavy macro early game: if you go on three bases, at 10 min your lair is done and bases are almost saturated, and while harassing, putting pressure and defending, you go for the tech. at 11 infestation pit is ready; at 12 hive is finished, at 14 you have broodlords. Then mass up broodlords , corruptors and spines, and slowly go for the win (as Stephano did against kiwikaki for instance). You can't go for a quick win though, as you need money to remax broodlords, and enough spines to avoid counters, but otherwise I would say at that point, odds are in zerg's favor.
The hard part is probably this 4/5 min time window between 10 and 15; but with the help of spines, harass, and corruptors that should come at around 13; I find it ok, especially as colossi shouldn't be out before 11/12. Really.......REALLY....?? So let me get this straight, what your saying is this: ZvT we can rarely break a terran till tier 3 because they wall up and turtle with timing pushes, drops, or don't move out till 200/200 to crush zerg, so our only option is to expand like crazy and macro in hopes we survive the horras and crush the push and ZvP we can't break the P due to walls, force fields, there units being more cost effective till tier 3, so agian your saying our only option is to expand like crazy survive the horras/timing pushes and hope to cursh them in the end with tier 3 agian, .... i'm sorry but thats bs and you know it. So lets funnel zerg into the same damn build for 2 races ? yeah thats enjoyable. If the metagame has resorted to this, blizz needs to go pound some sand and pull there head out of their ass You pretty much cant break the natural of a toss or terran with tier 2, if he knows what he is doing, and if he plays standard. Unless you try something gimmicky. But if he goes for a tech cheese or some greedy play, and you respond correctly and quickly, then there's good chance of doing economic damage.
You can crush his force whenever he moves out and kill his income with mutas though, if you play standard, and most terrans will GG at that point if they are left with 1 base vs 3 base.
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Really.......REALLY....?? So let me get this straight, what your saying is this:
ZvT we can rarely break a terran till tier 3 because they wall up and turtle with timing pushes, drops, or don't move out till 200/200 to crush zerg, so our only option is to expand like crazy and macro in hopes we survive the horras and crush the push
and
ZvP we can't break the P due to walls, force fields, there units being more cost effective till tier 3, so agian your saying our only option is to expand like crazy survive the horras/timing pushes and hope to cursh them in the end with tier 3 agian,
.... i'm sorry but thats bs and you know it. So lets funnel zerg into the same damn build for 2 races ? yeah thats enjoyable.
If the metagame has resorted to this, blizz needs to go pound some sand and pull there head out of their ass
For the most part, I agree with what he's saying...
Against Terran, you can usually win the game with lair tech. Once you have 20+ mutas, it's very hard for terran to survive and you can often harass him to death. 20 mutas will snipe a base quite quickly, even with repair. Same with banes. The problem in ZvT is always siege tanks, so once siege tanks are gone you can just go mass banes and roll everything (ie that's why thor/hellion gets owned by mass banes too). But, if it's a very back and forth game, and your mutas have to die off a lot and you can't get 20+ mutas stably, then yes, t3 is generally the answer. You can try mass banes but that's a gamble if they have lots of siege tank.
Again protoss, the only way to really kill them imo, without resorting to mass roach busts on 3 hatch against someone who doesn't get colossi quick enough, is 10+ broodlords.
That's why we are getting swarm host and viper. Yes, the game is balanced, but it's kind of stale gameplay when you have to wait until t3 to win the game (ie 20+ minutes). There's no way protoss should win when you are way ahead, but right now zerg's only option to bust protoss is to just play the macro game and kill them 10 minutes later.
I dont' agree with the guys build though. You'll die to general play. But once you secure that mid-late game edge, that's where you want to go. If someone lets you get hive on 3 base or that early, then they aren't really playing well or you already secured some huge lead. Getting 8 broodlords is over 2k in gas, so it's quite the investment to somehow have that by the 15 minute mark.
Quick question in ZvZ - 6-8 corruptors before pumping mutalisks; good idea, or did I just get lucky?
Depends. I like to use spores to defend against people who go super fast lair, then use my own +1 armor mutas with a superior macro advantage (later lair = more drones = more money, etc) and just overwhelm him. If I'm the one who ends up getting mutas on a lower economy (regardless if I got mutas faster or not) then you may want a corruptor or two added in. They are very good defensively against mutas, but they don't do enough damage and die quite quick (you can still hunt overlords just as well with a pack of corruptors).
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i've been having a problem with terran going hellion tank thor. hellions aren't a problem to me because i can just get roaches, and in response to tanks my army ends up looking like roach/muta/ling, and i trade armies fairly well if i need to trade. but when he gets thors (>4), i've invested so much gas with mutas and upgrades and roaches that it's hard for me to transition to a healthy amount of broodlords. i thought roaches and lings could deal with thors (which they can) but with tank support i need to bring in my mutas to pick the tanks off, but i end up having to pull out and try to find a good defensive angle but it's really hard with the range of the tanks and the thors denying my mutas. basically, should i keep my muta numbers as low as possible to get broodlords easily (which i presume are more effective against thor/tank than are roaches and lings)? i really want to prevent the terran from getting a third and harassing his mineral line effectively is important to me. i've been thinking that once i see an armory i should tech to blords, but then i feel like i slowly lose map control as terran doesn't have to deal with much muta anymore.
also with protoss ffe, i used to aim for a +1 armor roach/ling timing attack, but i realize that's kind of bad because force fields are amazing, and then i end up not doing anything at all other than use some of his sentries' energy. other times i've gone ling/roach/infestor which works really well until he gets collosi, and then i had wished i was able to harass him and delay his robo. should i always get a spire vs toss? and vs ffe, how early can i safely get a third?
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I feel like everything I know about Zerg is wrong.
My league rating is dropping fast and I've no idea why I'm playing like total shit now. Worst of all is that it's actually making me angry - really angry. I know it's "just a game" and it should be fun but it isn't. I should stop playing but I can't. I feel like I need to figure out what the fuck I am doing wrong.
I cannot beat Protoss for the life of me. I do fine vs. Zerg and great vs. Terran. Protoss, though, which is supposed to be our easiest match up, just destroys me. This brings me to my question:
How am I supposed to harass Protoss to prevent them from sitting on two bases and getting a huge army? Generally, what I'm seeing a lot of is really passive play by Protoss until about 9 minutes, at which point they poke around to see what's going on. They add to their ball at this time, sniping only what they can while I try to bait forcefields. Behind this they take a 3rd. I cannot attack the third, they'll sit on it if they have to. I cannot break the wall at their natural, it's is heavily defended. Drops seem to take a while to get and cut into my army size (note I feel forced to bulk this up when they're poking around the map).
When the big battle happens, I get slaughtered by stalker/sentry/colossus/zealot. I try roach corruptor because I have no idea what else to do anymore. Hydras melt to colossi. Zerglings are likewise useless. Corruptor nuke colossi but are empty supply after the battle. BLs take too long. Infestors may be an option but I feel they too weaken my army size. I could be wrong - I haven't had much luck with them.
When I ask my opponents for advice they say "I don't know, it sucks." or "Go muta." Really? Muta? If I try muta they go for a zealot/archon/stalker push before I've got a decent flock.
So - it has to be harassment that is the answer, right? A 200/200 Protoss army guts a 200/200 Zerg army. But the quesiton is: how the hell do I harass a FFE before they have enough of an army to just defend it - and more importantly - without completely crippling my economy in the process. I don't want to be an "all-in" player...
And maybe that's my problem. Maybe I need to gamble on roach/ling all-ins and up my win ratio; but it feels like a shitty fucking way to approach a match up.
Any help is appreciated, ideally before I put my fist through my computer.
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On November 04 2011 11:24 Mjolnir wrote:
I feel like everything I know about Zerg is wrong.
My league rating is dropping fast and I've no idea why I'm playing like total shit now. Worst of all is that it's actually making me angry - really angry. I know it's "just a game" and it should be fun but it isn't. I should stop playing but I can't. I feel like I need to figure out what the fuck I am doing wrong.
I cannot beat Protoss for the life of me. I do fine vs. Zerg and great vs. Terran. Protoss, though, which is supposed to be our easiest match up, just destroys me. This brings me to my question:
How am I supposed to harass Protoss to prevent them from sitting on two bases and getting a huge army? Generally, what I'm seeing a lot of is really passive play by Protoss until about 9 minutes, at which point they poke around to see what's going on. They add to their ball at this time, sniping only what they can while I try to bait forcefields. Behind this they take a 3rd. I cannot attack the third, they'll sit on it if they have to. I cannot break the wall at their natural, it's is heavily defended. Drops seem to take a while to get and cut into my army size (note I feel forced to bulk this up when they're poking around the map).
When the big battle happens, I get slaughtered by stalker/sentry/colossus/zealot. I try roach corruptor because I have no idea what else to do anymore. Hydras melt to colossi. Zerglings are likewise useless. Corruptor nuke colossi but are empty supply after the battle. BLs take too long. Infestors may be an option but I feel they too weaken my army size. I could be wrong - I haven't had much luck with them.
When I ask my opponents for advice they say "I don't know, it sucks." or "Go muta." Really? Muta? If I try muta they go for a zealot/archon/stalker push before I've got a decent flock.
So - it has to be harassment that is the answer, right? A 200/200 Protoss army guts a 200/200 Zerg army. But the quesiton is: how the hell do I harass a FFE before they have enough of an army to just defend it - and more importantly - without completely crippling my economy in the process. I don't want to be an "all-in" player...
And maybe that's my problem. Maybe I need to gamble on roach/ling all-ins and up my win ratio; but it feels like a shitty fucking way to approach a match up.
Any help is appreciated, ideally before I put my fist through my computer.
If you see a really passive protoss. Like one that has lots of sentries and teching to colo, you shld go ultralisk zergling infestor, some banelings to deal with zealots. You really need the ultralisk to break the forcefields. Skip infestors if he has pheonixes. If he techs greedily to colo and double stargate, scout the sentry count, and if its low do a baneling bust.
If he goes for a third before colo's are out you shld be able to deny/delay his third while getting your fourth up.
And you need to know what kind of push he is roughly going for as well. if he does a sentry gateway timing you probably need burrow roach then flood lings. if he goes blink stalker, you need mass upgraded lings. if he does some 5-6 immortal push go mutaling.
IMO, i generally feel its a bad idea to go mutas on 2 bases against toss.
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Every single one of my ZvP's on tal'darim usually begin with the toss FFE. Usually I'm fine with this, except for the fact that it is tal'darim, and this means no quick third. So, I'm just confined on my 2 base verse his 2 base and i usually lose to any sort of gateway pushes or i end up taking a third relatively late compared to when i should be, i feel like he can just spam units at my 2 base and win, so until i find a decent build, or anything to do on tal'darim i have the map vetoed out, any help?
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On November 05 2011 04:18 sgtjimmy wrote:
Every single one of my ZvP's on tal'darim usually begin with the toss FFE. Usually I'm fine with this, except for the fact that it is tal'darim, and this means no quick third. So, I'm just confined on my 2 base verse his 2 base and i usually lose to any sort of gateway pushes or i end up taking a third relatively late compared to when i should be, i feel like he can just spam units at my 2 base and win, so until i find a decent build, or anything to do on tal'darim i have the map vetoed out, any help?
A few weeks ago I was going through July's replays from the first MLG he attended (I can't remember which one this was). I saw that on two games in Tal darim versus scrubs when he was in the open bracket he just baneling busted them and won instantly. Since I saw that, I've been doing the same thing a lot of the time. It can be harder if they wall off really solidly and have sentries out, but sometimes it's just an auto-win for you.
It's not a complete strategy, and the situation doesn't always call for it, but I would practice a baneling bust build a few times so you have it in your repertoire and pull it out sometimes in this situation. Protoss play way too greedy sometimes with this build and don't properly prepare to defend a baneling bust.
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EPT
