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On October 28 2011 08:43 Mjolnir wrote:
How the almighty fuck do I stop this stupid 3 to 6 rax all-in marine bullshit that is so commonplace now.
If I drone, I die.
If I don't drone, I die later.
Spines are useless.
Banes are a joke if they kite or spread.
Infestor are too late.
Mutas are too late.
It's just wave after wave of fucking MARINES. They wall in, drop a bunch of rax and start pumping. When they have a group large enough to kite well, they move (10 or so marines). From there it just gets worse and worse. I feel like I have to make lings to hold but they die pretty easily. This also takes away from my drone count and eventually their econ just rockets. Roaches are also pretty useless.
Anyone dealing with this? I've talked to some Ts after games and they all seem to feel they've "found a great strat" that pressures better than hellions (sooner, more versatile, probably more damage).
hi, i'm top plat ( i'm laddering with few diamonds ) so, sorry if it is a noob re. ( just trying to help ) but i can tell you what i did to solve that problem. drone till 10/10, overlord, extractor trick, send that overlord to your natural to scout for bunkers, drone till 15 and expand and send drone to scout, 16 pool ( his scout should be at your base right now) , drone till 18, overlord, extractor (gas~100 and back to mining minerals ) , drone.spawn and hatchery should spawn at the same time, 2 queens, with the larvae in your natural build lings and transfer 5 drones to your natural, and use them to defend and deny bunker ( you should have scvs building a bunker and few marines ) use your remining lings to scout the marine count if keeps increasing with a spine crawler and 2 couples of lings should be fine if he still commit to the all in build another spine crawler and you should be fine with a queen, lings and 2 spine and eventually blings.
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On October 28 2011 15:30 Amaterasu1234 wrote:Background Info: Mid-master Z that uses a roach/ling style in zvp with constant upgrades, often resulting in a very, very potent mid game, more often than not ending the game. Seems to be better vs Forge FE than 1/3 gate expo. Not sure why. Main Problem: +1/+1 timing attack PvZ, where the toss gets +1 melee and +1 armor...and owns my face. http://drop.sc/49881 is the most recent example. This is the only strategy I've lost to this season vs toss (so far); both times off 1 or 3 gate expo, and resulting in an attack that overruns me with extremely powerful units, despite me having +1/+1 roaches. Perhaps its the fact that I'm playing like I'm up against a FFE when I should respond differently when I scout 1/3 gate, but, either way, it's hard to keep up in drones if I'm not just powering. As such, I don't know how to modify by strategy in order to compensate for the offensive power of the 1/3 gate opener. I'm thinking I may have to cut drones sooner and start pumping roaches and lings, maybe drop an upgrade. Honestly, I just don't know :/ Perhaps I've just forgotten how to play vs 1/3 gate expo...since every toss now just FFE's on every map...
Mid master Z here myself.
I agree that a Gateway expand is more challenging than a FFE simply because they can pressure you right off the bat - let's face it, that is the most annoying thing for a Zerg to deal with when we want to power drones.
When I face any sort of Gate expand I say to myself: "I'll make a round of units, just in case" and that's what I do. If they pressure, I'm safe. If they don't, it sucks I lost out on some drones but I can a) feel a bit safer powering them with some defense and b) I already have some army to add to.
With a Gate expand I feel I know exactly what's coming: basic Gate units and heavy sentries. I react accordingly (although I'm sure this part isn't an issue for you).
Basically, I just accept I need to make more army earlier "just in case." There is nothing worse than losing because you had one too many cycles of drones and a stupid early push does way too much damage.
After watching your replay the two things that stood out to me were:
1. You could have, and probably should have taken a faster 3rd. He didn't really have anything to stop you with - although it's hard to know that. Zerg scouting blows (contrary to popular opinion). Even if you didn't mine from it, the extra hatch would help with unit production, which leads me to...
2. You were floating an average of 400ish (often more) minerals prior to engagements. Sometimes it was up to anywhere between 500-700. That's a lot of extra units - especially at that first push. Those extra units would have really helped to cripple his early army.
Your larva injects are nearly perfect. I always think that's impressive.
So, I guess I'd say get an earlier 3rd; be ready to defend it with extra units early (sucks but probably necessary) and keep those minerals down. Ultimately, you didn't play badly at all, that seems like a really strong push.
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On October 25 2011 19:42 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 19:17 Karak wrote:On October 25 2011 10:39 VoirDire wrote:
Any Zerg who has done any testing on whether to place 3rd hatchery or build 2nd queen first vs a protoss FE when going for 3 base? Nestea builds his 2nd queen first. Most European pros prefer to get the hatch down asap. 4:00-4:30, sometimes even cutting both queens.
You can build both queens and still get your 3rd hatch down at around ~4:45 AFAIK. I feel like the larva is more important in the early game? I dunno. I don't like delaying the queens all that long.
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Anyone know of any pro vods where someone holds off 6 gate +1 or a 7 gate when going fast third AND lair?
There's plenty of examples where they don't get lair, I know, but I never see any where they get lair.
Just wondering. I suppose replays are okay, but I'm looking for like a 6 gate that's moving out at 8:30. I have no problem with bad 8 gates or stupid crap from bad players that come at 10:00.
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Can any diamond+ players tell me your ZvP game plan?
I used to do lings infestors and was extremely successful with it, be it that he did a FFE or just a 3 gate expand.
But now that infestors cannot deal with colossus ball that effectively anymore, there is a strong need to rush hive for broodlords/ultras or else one colossus ball could straight off kill me.
I am trying to use nydus or ling drops to keep him in his base and rush my tech and had been successful only at certain players that I felt were not that good anyway.
I have tried to use roache heavy aggression with 2 base saturated but it is countered heavily by 2 robo style which just pump out too many immortals for me to handle.
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On October 29 2011 03:26 Karak wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 19:42 MrBitter wrote:On October 25 2011 19:17 Karak wrote:On October 25 2011 10:39 VoirDire wrote:
Any Zerg who has done any testing on whether to place 3rd hatchery or build 2nd queen first vs a protoss FE when going for 3 base? Nestea builds his 2nd queen first. Most European pros prefer to get the hatch down asap. 4:00-4:30, sometimes even cutting both queens. You can build both queens and still get your 3rd hatch down at around ~4:45 AFAIK. I feel like the larva is more important in the early game? I dunno. I don't like delaying the queens all that long.
Ah I disagree. When you take a fast third you normally don't need the larva asap unless you are staying 2 base.
I always delay the queens to get that 3rd hatchery started which starts at about 3:45-3:55 iirc? I may be wrong on the timing would have to watch a replay but its a lot faster then 4:45 and imo better. When I make the 2 queens after placing my third I just have them lay down creep tumors because I don't need all that larva immediately.
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I have been wondering about this a bit! Usually i delay queens (I go 11 pool 18 hatch, with Queen at 15, and third base at around 35, 2nd and 3rd queens at around 40, cause you don't need them before that for larvae)
but I found unpleasant not to have creep early enough. Especially, I find it really useful to have creep to your third before a 6 gate push come, so that you can see it (and evaluate forces) basically.
What do you guys think, I would be very interested to have opinions here
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Any tips on developing consistent scouting for a plat level zerg? I lost a really close, exciting game recently and I feel like I lost it due to poor scouting. He was going with all kinds of crazy tech at the same time (groups of 3 cloaked banshees, blue flame hellions, all while already having multiple thors parked in his base). To use a common Day9ism I could have just gone and fucking killed him had I seen what he was defending with, but I hesitated and went down a dumb tech path that lost me the game.
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in ZvZ, I never really got it... um... when's a good time to transition or drone in the early game where there's a lot of ling bane action? (when do you transition to like the midgame) ?
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On October 31 2011 17:04 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 03:26 Karak wrote:On October 25 2011 19:42 MrBitter wrote:On October 25 2011 19:17 Karak wrote:On October 25 2011 10:39 VoirDire wrote:
Any Zerg who has done any testing on whether to place 3rd hatchery or build 2nd queen first vs a protoss FE when going for 3 base? Nestea builds his 2nd queen first. Most European pros prefer to get the hatch down asap. 4:00-4:30, sometimes even cutting both queens. You can build both queens and still get your 3rd hatch down at around ~4:45 AFAIK. I feel like the larva is more important in the early game? I dunno. I don't like delaying the queens all that long. Ah I disagree. When you take a fast third you normally don't need the larva asap unless you are staying 2 base. I always delay the queens to get that 3rd hatchery started which starts at about 3:45-3:55 iirc? I may be wrong on the timing would have to watch a replay but its a lot faster then 4:45 and imo better. When I make the 2 queens after placing my third I just have them lay down creep tumors because I don't need all that larva immediately.
Exactly, the creep is much more important than the larva early game because it destroy any kind of marine all in (other than 2rax all in) and grant your ling/roach a better speed/concave against a X gate all in
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On October 31 2011 19:40 zhurai wrote:
in ZvZ, I never really got it... um... when's a good time to transition or drone in the early game where there's a lot of ling bane action? (when do you transition to like the midgame) ?
well it's not an easy thing to transition out of this. two cases:
- if there is someone clearly attacking and the other one defending (like 1 base baneling/zergling vs hatch first): if you attack, you transition when you want ; if you defend, you have either to make strong defense (like roach for instance) and transition quickly, or just defend with lings banelings and just try to see when your opponent is transitioning out.
- if you are in a mirror situation,
1. it's quite difficult. generally, you can transition when you already have an advantage. this needs to be progressive. first squeeze a couple of extra drones if you won 1 battle, then a roach warren, etc.
2. it's a guessing game, which implies scouting (Of course, you can guess based on the number of zerglings he sent you, but it's quite hard to evaluate that). Imo, scouting is a big big thing in z v z, and you need to do it much more frequently than in other match ups. To see if your opponent is transitioning out, the best way is to count drones, (Natural+ main being the optimal way to do it). two tools, then: overlord (behind natural if possible, sac if necessary) and couple of zerglings here and there, that you send to the natural or in the main (better as you will check tech).
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On October 28 2011 22:39 TheGreenMachine wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 22:29 Macpo wrote:On October 28 2011 22:10 TheGreenMachine wrote:
Whats everyone's opinion on opening up 11 hatch before first overlord? my 2cent opinion (low master): - not useful in z v t, in which you can 15 hatch, which will lead to a better economy. - pretty likely impossible in z v p due to the threat of pylon block and/or cannon rush. but maybe by doing the hatch earlier, you will manage to make lings early enough (don't think though, for instance if the toss puts 3 pylons down the ramp of your main) - I don't know in z v z... I guess it will depend on the pool and gas timing you chose with the hatch first; but maybe the most relevant match up to experiment in this regard. Well in my build the hatchery finishes before your spawning pool even starts. It starts with 11 hatch, 14 pool 14 gas 18 overlord 18/20 queen. Its unique posting a thread about it within a week or two once we get more replays against grandmasters.
Sounds bizarre enough that it might just work. Looking forward to seeing that thread....
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Hi folks, just 3 replays and a few strategic questions
http://drop.sc/51032
ZvP, I'm on roachlingmuta, he does 3gate robo expand and gets loads of immortals and just 1 colossi.
-is that early hatch(15 or 16 supply I think) after the 13 pool economically viable, or should I wait till 20 food?
-should I have droned up a bit more around the 7-8 minute mark?
-had I remembered to do my roach upgrades and controlled my units a bit better, would I have won the big fight? What if I had made other units instead of the corruptors?
http://drop.sc/51033 ZvT
-was the roach push a bad idea?
-do I just need a different unit mix to hold against his marine tank push or could I have managed it with better macro or control? If so, how? If not, what's a good way to adjust with minimal change to the buildorder? (Obviously I'm only interested in 1st and 2nd Terran pushes, I'm dead after that)
http://drop.sc/51034 ZvZ
I did win this one and its only a silver opponent, but its a tactic I've often lost to before(ie 2 base muta).
-How do I know when to attack when massing up that roach force?
-Was the roach army suicide killing all his queens and 1 of his hatches a good move, or did it only work because I was ahead in econ?
-How do I end the game faster? More mutas, more roaches, something else?
Thanks for your time.
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I recently made it into Diamond league from several months of Platinum. My ZvT and ZvZ are fine but my ZvP is and always has been horrible.I fee like I am constantly behind or like I have no way to actually win unless the protoss moves out prematurely and I get a good surround.
My ZvT is good because I can punish with terran with Zerglings for being out of positions as well as harass with mutas but I do not feel I can accomplish this in ZvP am I wrong, right or just confused about the match up?
My general mindset right now is to get 1 melee-1 carapace speedling/infestor and hope for a good surround. Next I go hive and get ultra and crackling while trying to obtain 3-4 base econ. Problem is I always die while Im droning or right after and almost never make it to ultra because I never feel safe enough to make the T3 jump. Like I said I dont understand how to punish extremely greedy play like when a Protoss FFEs or when they do anything honestly. Any help you guy and girls could give would be much appreciated.
Having written this out I know it just sounds like macro mistakes and it very well probably is but I dont understand in general how I should play the match up to make me feel more comfortable in the early and mid game. What to look for etc.
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On October 28 2011 22:10 TheGreenMachine wrote:
Whats everyone's opinion on opening up 11 hatch before first overlord?
i dont see how you could survive any early pressure?
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http://drop.sc/51076
I win both major engagements (the first 2), counter attack ,keep money low and still lose vs T- wth!
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On November 01 2011 02:16 vahgar.r24 wrote:http://drop.sc/51076I win both major engagements (the first 2), counter attack ,keep money low and still lose vs T- wth!
Notes (I'll leave these here so you'll know what I was thinking as the game goes on): your overlord scouting patterns are EXTREMELY dangerous! Hence the reason you got one sniped.
You haven't even scouted the front of his base by 7 minutes, so you have no idea what on earth he's doing...yet you have 4 lings...use them
Roaches + spines is overkill and hurts your economy. One or the other other will work in the early game.
With absolutely no information on what he's doing, you makes roaches and lings...and do nothing with them...if they're going to sit around, they might as well be drones...
Then you drop spores at 9 minutes...for what?
Your third is extremely late considering he hasn't attacked by 12 minutes...
You traded very inefficently your first engage, and you didn't have a third
You never take the left side tower
You respond to the second engagement too late, if you'd have moved faster, you probably could have caught him unsieged...
Counterattack failed 'cause you threw too many units at the planetary fortress and the lone tank...I think if you'd went straight for his main, you could have done some insane damage, if not won the game right there....
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Overviews: So, you had virtually no scouting information and, instead, try to metagame him by making units at a time you think he's pushing, which resulted in a cancelled third, a barely successful defense and you being behind economically.
In this position, you take your third as you should, and proceed to simply move drones to your third rather than saturate it with larvae, keeping you in your economic situation, while continuing to pump units while he takes his third. Since you never took the left tower, you saw this engagement a bit late but you come out quite on top anyway. Then you wait for your larvae to pop before counterattacking, which is successful, except for the fact that you go for the planetary fortress instead of his main and his natural.
From here, you attempt to prevent him from taking more bases, but it's wearing you down as you spend thousands on sacrificing lings, in the end, your low economy costing you the game.
Potential fixes: Scout more. Use those lings to figure what he's doing. Sacrifice overlords to get inside his base. If you see a fast expand, usual response is to take a quick third, especially if they don't bother you with hellions. Attacks often come between 9-11 minutes. Believe it or not, you should have ~55 drones by 8:30, at which point, you should be taking your third, and making only lings. By being on top of your scouting, you'll know whether or not he'll be pushing soon. Either way, by 16 minutes, you should have 70+ drones as you drone hardcore after you crush his first attack. From there, your strategy should work well as it's the same one I use
TL;DR: You tried to press your perceived advantages (based on limited information without the economy to back what you were doing. You made around 50-55 drones the entire game...you need 70+. And, unless you're absolutely sure you're going to bust it, stop attacking into planetary fortresses. Scouting, and understanding what you see, will help you with all of this
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i go 2 base spire, he goes 2 gate phoenix, wtf to do?
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some corruptors, drone and expand, I would say
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not a chance im gonna make corruptors... too immobile and useless in every other aspect than driving off phoenix harass... sry but really dont think thats the answer
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EPT
