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On September 11 2010 15:33 PaladiN_23 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 15:24 Aeo wrote:
Saying, "All the progamers have high APM, so I need high APM to be pro" is akin to saying, "Professional speed chess players play really fast; moving the pieces fast must be more important to my development than learning the game." very good analogy, if you have apm under 50 though you need to work on being more active with what your doing in the game cause imo u can't really improve too much if you play under 50 apm because mid/late game requires a little more actions than that. other than that you really shouldnt worry bout apm until you've mastered the basic mechanics of the game and THEN maybe u can work on having 200+ apm.
not really, this game is sooo easy now compared to BW.
I mean im 1000 diamond with 60 or something APM.
i forget what the saying was but something along the lines of..
When your APM is high you arent always good
but when youre good your apm is probably high
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Most of the comments boil down to the same thing.
APM and skill are... erm, what's the phrase? Unidirectionally conditional? I'm sure there's a better way to say it, but we're using the mathematical implicative.
In RTS games,
High level of skill => higher APM
Interestingly, if that statement holds true, then the contrapositive would also be true: Low APM => low level of skill
However, the mistake that many people are making is using the converse—High APM => High level of skill, which is not true. Ditto the inverse: Low level of skill => low APM
So although we're generalizing when we're using this rule—I'm certain there are great players with lower APM than you'd expect—most high level gamers in Starcraft have high APM. Most players with low APM have less skill with the game. But it is a fallacy to suggest that if you have high APM, you'll be better at the game, or that if you aren't good at the game, it's because your APM is low.
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my apm went from where your at now to about 100 (avg whole game) just by massing games. I play zerg. There is no substitute for just playing alot of the game. There are things you can do to supplement your improvement but IMO actual game time should be the meat of your regimen
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Practice, practice, practice. It's the same thing in almost every sport. There are no substitutes for hard work and practice.
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On September 11 2010 21:19 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 15:33 PaladiN_23 wrote:On September 11 2010 15:24 Aeo wrote:
Saying, "All the progamers have high APM, so I need high APM to be pro" is akin to saying, "Professional speed chess players play really fast; moving the pieces fast must be more important to my development than learning the game." very good analogy, if you have apm under 50 though you need to work on being more active with what your doing in the game cause imo u can't really improve too much if you play under 50 apm because mid/late game requires a little more actions than that. other than that you really shouldnt worry bout apm until you've mastered the basic mechanics of the game and THEN maybe u can work on having 200+ apm. not really, this game is sooo easy now compared to BW. I mean im 1000 diamond with 60 or something APM. i forget what the saying was but something along the lines of.. When your APM is high you arent always good but when youre good your apm is probably high
I really don't intend or hope this comes off as a flame but seriously,
It's currently a general consensus amongst top players that sc2 is not only more difficult, but more complex than the original.
Also 1000 diamond is far from anywhere impressive, along with your apm.
Again I don't really want to sound negative but I don't think you are in a position to make statements like that.
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I think lots of people are missing the the mark here. High APM doesn't come from focusing on what you ARE doing, but focusing on what you WILL be doing. If you're always thinking a few actions in advance, you'll minimize the idle time between one task and the next. If you're in battle,for instance, you should have already thought "I'm going to research +1 upgrades" and have the hand motions and hotkeys needed to do so mentally pre-prepared so they can be executed instantly after the battle. If the next task will be to focus your camera in your opponent's base, you shouldn't be thinking about upgrades anymore, you should have already shifted your gaze to the point on the minimap that you'll need to click and mentally prepared the mouse movement. Sure, it's taxing at first, and you will screw up, but it's the best way to improve APM.
It's sort of just like queuing a second SCV just before the previous one finishes so there is no idle time. Mouse speed, hand speed and 'agility' have almost nothing to do with it.
Sources: I have an education in motor skills acquisition.
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On September 11 2010 23:24 Musketeer wrote:
I think lots of people are missing the the mark here. High APM doesn't come from focusing on what you ARE doing, but focusing on what you WILL be doing. If you're always thinking a few actions in advance, you'll minimize the idle time between one task and the next. If you're in battle,for instance, you should have already thought "I'm going to research +1 upgrades" and have the hand motions and hotkeys needed to do so mentally pre-prepared so they can be executed instantly after the battle. If the next task will be to focus your camera in your opponent's base, you shouldn't be thinking about upgrades anymore, you should have already shifted your gaze to the point on the minimap that you'll need to click and mentally prepared the mouse movement. Sure, it's taxing at first, and you will screw up, but it's the best way to improve APM.
It's sort of just like queuing a second SCV just before the previous one finishes so there is no idle time. Mouse speed, hand speed and 'agility' have almost nothing to do with it.
Sources: I have an education in motor skills acquisition.
Sounds right to me. Practicing thinking about one thing at a time will develop fast APM in discrete packets of actions, separated by in-game decisions; Starcraft players are better served by constant chains of myelinated neural circuits.
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I find focusing too much on keeping a high APM is rather counter productive. Rather I would suggest as others here has, to keeping an mental checklist and regularly check that you remember to do those things. Only case where i find it somewhat helpful to purposefully keep my own APM somewhat high is periods in a game where not much is happening just to keep the pace up.
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On September 11 2010 23:33 Zorkiel wrote:
mental checklist
this.
The longer your mental checklist gets, the more things you consider doing, the higher your APM will go. Spamming for APM won't make you a better player, doing many things at the same time will.
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Does anyone actually bother spamming apm once the game goes past the 1-2 minute mark? During mid-late game I think spamming apm is really going to be the last thing going on in your head
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Im gaving same problem with apm . ~50 at best (i dont do any spaming ) , but i noticed that it is going up . Im just trying to remember everything what i need to do (thanks to day9 ) . I dont think there is any other way to improve expect for playing more games .
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I dare to say I am a pretty good diamond toss player, But my apm is only 70ish, while my opponents are often above 150 (doubling mine), but I still beat them. Really, apm is absolutely not important, don't worry about it.
EDIT: Whitera has only 100 apm.
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On September 11 2010 12:55 Pfeff wrote:
APM is like DPS in world of warcraft. Higher doesn't always mean better; it's only useful if you are doing it correctly. If you do everything you are supposed to do your APM (or DPS) will shoot up by itself
how the fuck is apm anything like dps? do you even know what the terms mean? high DPS is ALWAYS good. i cannot for the life of me think of a situation where having a ling is better than having somthing with more dps. like say a hydra. apm is a little more finicky. solid fundamentals are more valuable than super high amp with terrible fundamentals.
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On September 11 2010 12:30 TMTurtle wrote:
Play better. Think more.. Your APM is not a restriction of your fingers or hands, but of your brain to think of what you should be doing. To back this up- I myself have tried a lot of different keyboard layouts, and graphed my progress in terms of APM. It slowly goes up no matter what layout or shortcuts I use. Takes about a day of practicing on a new layout to get back to the APM of the previous day- even when I intentionally use awkward layouts.
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On September 12 2010 04:06 charlie420247 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 12:55 Pfeff wrote:
APM is like DPS in world of warcraft. Higher doesn't always mean better; it's only useful if you are doing it correctly. If you do everything you are supposed to do your APM (or DPS) will shoot up by itself how the fuck is apm anything like dps? do you even know what the terms mean? high DPS is ALWAYS good. i cannot for the life of me think of a situation where having a ling is better than having somthing with more dps. like say a hydra. apm is a little more finicky. solid fundamentals are more valuable than super high amp with terrible fundamentals.
LoL you people think too deep into a comparison. My point was that neither of them are important if you aren't doing what you are supposed to be doing (macroing vs killing adds, etc)...calm down nerds jeez lol
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I think spamming is a good habit. It helps you keep focus by constantly doing something, at least in my case. I'm not saying it's better to spam, but I'd recommend it if you're somewhat new to the game. However, if you confident that you can keep your focus throughout the game, feel free to drop it. It might be a bit difficult to keep spamming past the first minutes at first, but before you know it you'll find yourself constantly spamming and not paying attention to it at all.
To sum up my thoughts about it: spamming is not necessary, not necessarily better, but might help you if you often find yourself just staring at your base or a battle when you should've been microing or macroing.
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On September 11 2010 23:06 Agh wrote:
I really don't intend or hope this comes off as a flame but seriously,
It's currently a general consensus amongst top players that sc2 is not only more difficult, but more complex than the original.
Please quote source and possibly link to the reference material where you obtained the "general consensus." Additionally, specify what you mean by "top players" by citing whom and linking to the relevant material. Also include where they have said "more difficult" and "more complex," and emphasize the point "than the original." Thank you.
You get high APM by constantly doing something. If you find yourself staring at the screen, stop it. If you find yourself staring at your unit production building to build, stop it. You should always be doing something in this game. Be it upgrades, repositioning, spellcasting, production or scouting. There is always something to do, and as you get better at the game, you know exactly what's going on everywhere, like on your minimap, or on your upgrades.
Do everything instantly. Something I strive for. Instantly get the upgrades when it's possible. Have a hotkey for the upgrade building. Know the hotkeys for each upgrade. The less time you spend on each action, the more free time you have for other actions, meaning you will do more.
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How I view it, you have to start off slow! Its like practicing an instrument you dont start by ripping out the solo, your fingers have to know the movements before hand! Practice and just constantly reviewing those movements you do in every game! Make a constant effort in always using your hotkeys and control grouping everything and once you get your own system in place your apm will increase as you get more comfortable with your play style
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Here is exactly how your apm goes up:
You need to know your build inside out, and how it can react to anything the enemy does.
Once you have this down, your apm will naturally increase by itself because youre not spending nearly as much brain power thinking of your next move, you just automatically know what to do vs what and you can spend all your time microing troops and making stuff.
then once you get to this stage, its all about being efficient. you just clicked your hellions to move? you dont need to watch them move go make a supply depot and come back to it in half a second so you can control it once its finished moving.
before any of this, decide on your hotkeys and stick with them. its a similar situation, you will get used to them and spend less time thinking about hotkeys and more time using them drastically increasing apm.
this is what people mean by practise, practise, practise.
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Don't worry about your APM, as you get better it'll increase with you. It's something thats symptomatic of your skill levels, but the converse isn't true; you don't have high skill as a result of high APM. However to answer your question, hotkey your production facilities and armies
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EPT
