EPTeasier way to defend reapers as Z - Page 2
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iSmoke
Canada34 Posts
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Seide
United States831 Posts
On September 10 2010 14:56 remio wrote: IMO for zerg, when you go midgame you need quite a bit of gas to get the upgrades, I'm not sure if 2 gas transitioning to a late 4 is going to cut it ? A mutalisk play is certainly risky off 1 base, that leaves you with roach/hydra, but you need all those upgrades. Banelings cost a ton of gas too. Zerg begin to get all 4 gas only right as the lair begins building or slightly before. Until then they go off 1 gas, maybe 2. So far i've been playing this and getting the natural decently quick, so I have 4 geysers option before the lair. You do not try to win this off of 1 base, no way. You play off 1 base with 1 goal in mind, to take the natural safely so reaper/helion/2gate agression is less dangerous and possibly do some speedling harass if opponent is not being agressive. After that it plays like most other zerg builds I have playerd. | ||
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Zips
United States146 Posts
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Viruuus
Germany451 Posts
Bubba basically goes 14 pool and 16 hatch after he scouts his opponent is not in the close ground position on meta, then he spends his first 100 gas on lair, makes a couple of roaches and 2 queens (which he allows to take some damage until roaches pop, and he lets roaches take turns in taking damage/even lets em die if necessary). He then gets roach speed asap and one well placed spinecrawler and techs back to speedlings after that. Seems quite micro intensive aswell until roachspeed is done, but i really liked the idea of it  | ||
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stickman.hqt
United States47 Posts
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greycubed
United States615 Posts
On September 10 2010 11:59 Rumtifoo wrote: No. well, I find that the main problem of 1 basing is not having enough larva to both drone and defend. The advantage of a hatch at an expo and not inside your base is increased income, but until you have more than 30 drones, the extra expansion isn't actually giving you more income it's just making it easier for you to be harassed. 20 drones mining off of two bases will get more minerals than 30 drones mining off of one. It's something that annoys me to no end about watching Husky's casts. He'll count workers to see who has the stronger economy and never notice the numbers on the left which are sometimes drastically different. | ||
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Phrencys
Canada270 Posts
As mentioned previously, Koreans are beginning to catch that 2hatch in main isn't that much of a crutch. For some reason the community is still stuck in the dogma "1hatch+1queen per base, Never let queen's energy get higher than 30, otherwise you're horrible at macro". It's the equivalent of saying "4gates per base only, absolutely no reason at all to add a robo if you're on one base since you cannot support 5 buildings constantly producing then". But guess what... you might need that observer, so why wait for your 2nd nexus just because someone said so? I'm personally glad to see Zerg style evolving, that Bubba's fast Roach+speed build mentioned above was indeed intriguing. | ||
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chumpchous
68 Posts
The economic difference is minimal, absolutely minimal. You dont get to saturate until very late anyhow, and if you FE, chances are you're going to lose some drones. Not only that, FE leaves you so vulnerable that you're forced to build more units to defend than you would if you stayed on one base. You definitely float larva a bit on 1 base 2 hatch, but I say that's a hell of a lot better than floating minerals, which is what happens if FEs get denied. I'd rather have a stockpile of extra larva than a stockpile of minerals I cant spend because I'm larva blocked. The beautiful thing about opening 2 hatch is that when you take your natural, you saturate it ridiculously fast, because you have extra larva and 3 hatches. I find that I take my 3rd expo sooner when I open this way. Also, you can place the hatch at your ramp, which makes it way easier to choke of vs. hellion harass. | ||
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MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
There are quite a few reasons why reasonably fast expansions are important 1) To eventually have a base to mine from quickly 2) To have creep at the front of your ramp ASAP 3) for extra larva for production Now I think 3 is equally (maybe even slightly preferably) satisfied by the hatch in base, but the very important 1 and 2 are completely lacking and the timing getting your expo saturated and defended if you didn't hatch their earlier is a LOT later and you leave yourself extremely exposed to a contain. Now against the pylon contain this might be a good idea as your opponent has invested a decent amount of resources to keep you contained. | ||
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Emmon
England21 Posts
This is my favourite reason for the natural, untill you can throw out the tumors there it can be harder to start your highway, plus it stops wall - ins | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On September 10 2010 13:07 HomicidaL wrote: This, I to have notice many koreon zerg having and extra hatch in their main, Zerg minerals stack up very fast once you get saturated. Extra Larva never hurt anyone. The op makes a strong point, you cant really fully saturate both your main and expo until at least mid game. So eco wise your at no real advantage by FE until mid game. You will take your expo around the same time a terran or toss would, your just not FE. The extra hatch is normally their 3rd or 4th Hatch though after they got 2/3 bases going. | ||
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SRY
31 Posts
On September 11 2010 01:52 Emmon wrote: "2) To have creep at the front of your ramp ASAP" This is my favourite reason for the natural, untill you can throw out the tumors there it can be harder to start your highway, plus it stops wall - ins with 14 hatch in base 14 pool, you can get creep there faster depending on hatchery placement. | ||
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Encrypto
United States442 Posts
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Rumtifoo
12 Posts
I lost a few games using this build to someone doing a 3 rax (one reactor 2 tech lab) timing push with stim. But now if no reapers show up I drop a baneling nest and scout for the marine/marauder comp and tool my zerg/baneling mix accordingly. This operates the same way in repelling his force and setting me up for broodlords. | ||
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Parametric
Canada1261 Posts
Rum, if you want more info on 1 base play read that thread. It's ridiculously long but very informative and the person who wrote it isn't a bad writer so it's possible to get through it all. I read it in between games of the MLG Raleigh tourny lol | ||
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meffo
Sweden109 Posts
it's also worth noting that unless your nat is very far away from your ramp, it is by no means necessary to place your first hatch in your main to defend 3- or 5rax reapers. creep is essential to deal with reapers, so in many cases taking your natural would actually make defending vs reapers easier rather than hiding it in your main. a couple of well placed spine crawlers and some queens to transfuse usually does the trick i dare say. speedlings are just so much faster than reapers with nitropacks anyway... great suggestion, though, one basing is hardly even viable unless you have a second hatch. | ||
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Rumtifoo
12 Posts
WirelessWaffle, thanks for the link it was a really interesting read. | ||
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dronelord
Singapore42 Posts
On September 10 2010 11:27 Rumtifoo wrote: I'm a ~750 diamond zerg player (rum.858) I'm not that good, but I play a lot. I was getting tired of losing to five rax reaper which has become very popular at 800ish diamond so I decided to start getting creative and ran into something that has worked for me. I know that if my micro was better it wouldn't be necessary, but I think a lot of players might benefit from this method. Also, even if you are much better plaer and are able to take your FE against early reaper without many losses, this is a way that can reduce the risk further without much of a downside. The build is 14 hatch 14 pool with my hatch inside my main. I drop one spinecrawler the instant my pool finishes, make two queens and then pump out 10 or so roaches. Since I only have one base the reapers never deal any damage... they might get a queen if they get lucky. I also get to use the extra queen to start spreading creep really fast, because with roaches I don't quite need two spit cycles yet. After I get a good roach count I start pumping lings, I get like 40 or 50 of them. By the time he pushes with his marauders I have enough to destroy his push very economically. By this time the Terran generally goes into turtle mode. I make 6 to 8 mutalisks to harass and pin him in, then I tech up to broodlords and crack him. here is a replay. I wish I had one that makes me look better, I kind of fall apart towards the end. This isn't a 5 rax reaper but a 3 rax reaper. He got starports and went for banshees after his push failed... but if you'll notice my army when he pushes I would have easily defended a five rax too. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/76952-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple edit: another replay showing the build on steps of war, a lot cleaner build this time. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/77467-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war After reading your post and watching your first and second replays I'm quite disappointed although I thought I found a solution to it .. but theres this common thing about your replays .. you do not scout , either early or mid or late game .. so I'd like to know how do you know that your opponent will not do a MMM ball and push through ? No offence but did you happen to do this build to a 3-5rax reaper player ? Not all TERRAN players do it as far as I have encountered . In my opinion , this build will easily lose to any MMM ball ... cause in the early game you only tend to have zerglings and roaches . Please reply with a solution or am I just missing out something ? Point it out to me if I am . Thanks . P.S I'm a 800points platinum zerg ( not that good but some people might ask for it ) | ||
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Rumtifoo
12 Posts
yeah my scouting is a pretty weak part of my game, you are right to point that out. I've found that my ladder games 90% of terran do some sort of reaper/helion harass as if they don't zerg can be in really good position mid-game. It's the point I can almost always expect it. The reason I didn't bother scouting is because I saw the reapers and that's all the information I need, not to mention all the information I'm going to get. On the second replay, btw, I scouted with an ovie and saw the tech lab on his wall off. Anyways, to answer your question, yes an mmm play would beat the build, but if reapers or helions don't come I know that an mmm is coming and I just drop a baneling nest and sac an ovie to see his composition and adjust accordingly. | ||
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Screeling
United States18 Posts
What I do is get 8-12 roaches depending on map. Split them up into 3-4 sized groups and spread those at the cliffs, get 30 or so speedlings and keep those in the center. Use your overlords to scout, and since reapers can't pick them off you'll be fine having them out there a bit more. When you see them come, put your lings at the top of the cliff with a LITTLE bit of room to hop up. That way the reapers when they hop up will lose 2-3 and the rest of their force will be delayed in going up. You'll lose units, but cost for cost theirs will be worse. Then do a quick 1base muta to re-establish map control one you have 4 or so out. Harass like mad and try to get them to force vikings by doing this and if you see some get some corrupters then go muta/ling. If they go rines or thor then get 12 or so mutas, constantly harass. GO dimaga style ling/ultra with a nydus drop into their main while you are harassing. If you can't get the nydus in, then use it to establish map control and run them dry. My longest match ended up being like 50some minutes vs a top10 diamond terran. He ended up having 3 super turtle bases and I had the rest of the map. I couldn't crack it outright, even with drops. distractions, BLs. But I played game of attrition and I whittled down his forces. Granted I probably haven't faced a really good 5rax reaper, nd the responses that followed 5rax reaper when I re-establish map control are seemingly textbook and predictable as hell. | ||
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