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I'm a ~750 diamond zerg player (rum.858) I'm not that good, but I play a lot.
I was getting tired of losing to five rax reaper which has become very popular at 800ish diamond so I decided to start getting creative and ran into something that has worked for me. I know that if my micro was better it wouldn't be necessary, but I think a lot of players might benefit from this method.
Also, even if you are much better plaer and are able to take your FE against early reaper without many losses, this is a way that can reduce the risk further without much of a downside.
The build is 14 hatch 14 pool with my hatch inside my main. I drop one spinecrawler the instant my pool finishes, make two queens and then pump out 10 or so roaches.
Since I only have one base the reapers never deal any damage... they might get a queen if they get lucky. I also get to use the extra queen to start spreading creep really fast, because with roaches I don't quite need two spit cycles yet.
After I get a good roach count I start pumping lings, I get like 40 or 50 of them. By the time he pushes with his marauders I have enough to destroy his push very economically. By this time the Terran generally goes into turtle mode. I make 6 to 8 mutalisks to harass and pin him in, then I tech up to broodlords and crack him.
here is a replay. I wish I had one that makes me look better, I kind of fall apart towards the end. This isn't a 5 rax reaper but a 3 rax reaper. He got starports and went for banshees after his push failed... but if you'll notice my army when he pushes I would have easily defended a five rax too.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/76952-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple
edit:
another replay showing the build on steps of war, a lot cleaner build this time.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/77467-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war
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I don't agree with most of your post, but the idea of 2 hatch 1 base is intriguing. Sticking on one base as zerg is very scary though, but i imagine at lower levels its easier to get away due to poor macro in those leagues. Maybe a more refined post explaining WHY you can defend certain builds and follow ups will get me convinced.
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well, I find that the main problem of 1 basing is not having enough larva to both drone and defend. The advantage of a hatch at an expo and not inside your base is increased income, but until you have more than 30 drones, the extra expansion isn't actually giving you more income it's just making it easier for you to be harassed.
One might argue that the gas is important, but there is no way to safely get more than six drones on gas that early without removing to much mineral income. If you watch the replay, you will notice that I take my natural at a relatively normal time. I'm not talking about one base play here, I'm talking about delaying the expo and using an in base hatch to let you drone/d up faster.
Also, once your expansion does pop up, it takes two spit cycles to completely saturate it because you are producing 12 larva a cycle with 3 hatches. This isn't including the natural larva you can get if you empty the larva in-between spits.
You don't really need a third until you are about to mine out your main unless you want to be on 5 or 6 gas for some (super heavy muta play?) I find with two base and 12 drones in gas after defeating a mid-game push is more than enough to get a sizable tier 3 army.
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I mention this specifically for use against a Terran. I also use it against Protoss, but I haven't been incredibly successful with it yet. Good Protoss beat me up pretty hard right now.
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The whole point of 5 rax reaper is to punish zerg for expoing or to delay his expo. If you didn't expo early enough the build has pretty much done it's job. Also I probably won't blindly go 5 rax reaper if you didn't expo that early, I'd save some $$ instead of building the 4-5 rax and make an early cc since I have you contained. From here on you can go muta or bane/roach/ling but either way they're pretty hard vs a turtling terran. One base muta is also risky and since you already went some roaches you won't have much in way of gas.
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err, you being on one base makes the reapers worth it without even killing anything.
you are "countering" this as hard as you can. A good build against this is not extreme, it retains its economic power and objective. what you suggest only keeps you alive NOW, and cripples you later.
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if you watch the replay you will notice that what you guys are saying is exactly what happened. he stopped at 3 rax instead of 5 and fast expanded himself. I wasn't hurting mid-game because with the extra hatchery in my base I can saturate my expansion twice as fast so the effect on my income entering the mid-game is virtually nil, plus I have a third hatch for more larva.
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i feel like if you can spread out your creeps well, lay down 1-2 spinecrawler at your natural and get metabolic boost fast, and have your overlords on the cliff side where reapers come, you can defend really well against it, since lings with upgrade are faster than reapers, and MUCH faster on creeps its really easy to defend, and followed by a fast transition into muta its usually gg for the terran
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most of the korean zerg replays I see include an extra hatch in the main or in the natural. I think this is just one of those things US Zerg players need to do more often.
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On September 10 2010 12:34 EnderCN wrote:
most of the korean zerg replays I see include an extra hatch in the main or in the natural. I think this is just one of those things US Zerg players need to do more often.
This, I to have notice many koreon zerg having and extra hatch in their main, Zerg minerals stack up very fast once you get saturated. Extra Larva never hurt anyone.
The op makes a strong point, you cant really fully saturate both your main and expo until at least mid game. So eco wise your at no real advantage by FE until mid game. You will take your expo around the same time a terran or toss would, your just not FE.
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On September 10 2010 11:27 Rumtifoo wrote:
I drop one spinecrawler the instant my pool finishes, make two queens and then pump out 10 or so roaches.
After I get a good roach count I start pumping lings, I get like 40 or 50 of them. By the time he pushes with his marauders I have enough to destroy his push very economically
How can you say that an economic way to stop it if you are making a super early spine, 10 roaches and 50 lings. Any good terran that sees the in base hatch and the spine will make a bunker and expo with marauders or just stay one base and kill your army when they have enough.
I think little roach numbers with a spine in the front deals pretty good with reapers, the problem with them is when you are off creep and they can kite your roaches, if you have a spine (maybe 2 depending on the map) in your natural, everytime they come close they are hurt and also u can kill almost everyone of them if they try to kill the spine as your roaches will hit them. If they go up a clif you have 3 roaches there waiting.
The problem itself is that early ling speed + roaches is too expensive, i have found that 14 hatch 13 pool 16 gas can deal with normal reaper timing (no vs 8 rax or 9 rax depending the map) as you can get your roach warren instead of the first queen because you have enough larvae with your 2 hatcheries, if you see the 5 rax you add the spine in the front and then tech to speed, roaches in few numbers are super good vs few reapers, the problem comes when you are facing 8+ reapers and by that time you should have already your spine up.
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I actually like this idea a lot, I will toy with it. The FE really does serve no purpose but spread a zerg that is easy harass out further.
1 base zerg is really bad because of lack of larva issues.
With this I can get 2 queens quickly, and have plenty of larva to spend. You can hold off an early pressure with speedlings and expand to the natural once the 1st base is saturated, and saturate the expo really fast.
You can take advantage of roaches having some range and guard the ramp from early pressure as well instead of fighting out in the open at the natural, or if you dont get roaches and decide to use mass lings for defense you can let the units up the ramp, keeping lings off to the side for an easy surround.
Played a couple of games vs toss and it also worked well.
I will be playing this as my standard opener for awhile and see how it does. I am not feeling like I am losing much in the early game because by the time 1st base saturation comes into play I can safely get the expo, and I take much less damage from any form of early aggression.
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thanks for being open minded Seide, let me know how it goes.
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Bout to watch the replay. My pre-viewing question is how in the world do you stop him from just expanding and outmacroing you in the mid game?
Edit: And for what its worth, most one base plays generally fend off reapers with ease. Its that mid game transition AFTER the reapers that's so killer.
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madfrog is such a bad example to use. He is not known for his macro, in fact I don't know any 1 game where I didn't see his minerals go over 1k+
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On September 10 2010 14:15 MrBitter wrote:
Bout to watch the replay. My pre-viewing question is how in the world do you stop him from just expanding and outmacroing you in the mid game?
Edit: And for what its worth, most one base plays generally fend off reapers with ease. Its that mid game transition AFTER the reapers that's so killer.
Basic concept of this strat is:
1. Zerg has trouble with 1 base partly (I think mostly) due to lack of larvae
2. Getting a hatch at the natural doesn't help too much because my main saturated yet.
3. Getting a hatch at natural spreads zerg out and opens you up for easy early game aggression.
This solves 1 by getting that 2nd hatch for larvae production. Solves 2 and 3 by staying compact.
Its not like you play "turtle up in here" all game. You will still expand to that natural as soon as you feel it is safe.
Yes it is more delayed than a expo hatch at ~21 like the regular speedling opening does, but it keeps you much safer from 2 gate agression, reapers, and honestly helions.
If you spread tumors, by the time its time to take the natural you have creep down there so you can defend both bases easier. And thanks to your 2 hatches with queens in your main you can very quickly and safely get the expo up and saturated. Because of how quick you can saturate every following expo, outmacroing you is pretty difficult.
If the opponent does go for early expo, you have enough economy and larva to pump either roaches or speedlings and be aggressive, making that move dangerous for your opponent.
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This strat leaves zerg very weak when they bust out to secure that nat. At this point, what's stopping terran from expoing himself and doing a push with stimmed marauders and marines? Zerg army < terran army on same income
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One basing to negate as much power of the Reaper harass is a sound idea, the only problem is you must expand very rapidly (even a double expand perhaps at high-level play) to catch up the Terran economy (assuming they expand while they harass like any good player should).
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On September 10 2010 14:37 remio wrote:
This strat leaves zerg very weak when they bust out to secure that nat. At this point, what's stopping terran from expoing himself and doing a push with stimmed marauders and marines? Zerg army < terran army on same income
3 Rax Stim timing push use to be one of my fave strats against zerg when I played terran
A stim timing push comes before or close to the same time as the natural expo comes into play. The hatchery is already up but, there are not nearly enough drones mining it for it to be worth anything.
Most of the time I just got a free hatch kill out of it, reinforced and then pushed the main.
Correct me if I am wrong, I am no BW zerg expert:
I believe in BW, Zerg was not limited by their income, but was limited by their hatcheries. But in BW 12 hatch at natural was actually possible due to bigger maps. When did the extra income from the nat come into play vs just saturating the main, then expoing to the nat?
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IMO for zerg, when you go midgame you need quite a bit of gas to get the upgrades, I'm not sure if 2 gas transitioning to a late 4 is going to cut it ? A mutalisk play is certainly risky off 1 base, that leaves you with roach/hydra, but you need all those upgrades. Banelings cost a ton of gas too.
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This is a great post for people getting owned by the grim reapers
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On September 10 2010 14:56 remio wrote:
IMO for zerg, when you go midgame you need quite a bit of gas to get the upgrades, I'm not sure if 2 gas transitioning to a late 4 is going to cut it ? A mutalisk play is certainly risky off 1 base, that leaves you with roach/hydra, but you need all those upgrades. Banelings cost a ton of gas too.
Zerg begin to get all 4 gas only right as the lair begins building or slightly before. Until then they go off 1 gas, maybe 2.
So far i've been playing this and getting the natural decently quick, so I have 4 geysers option before the lair.
You do not try to win this off of 1 base, no way. You play off 1 base with 1 goal in mind, to take the natural safely so reaper/helion/2gate agression is less dangerous and possibly do some speedling harass if opponent is not being agressive. After that it plays like most other zerg builds I have playerd.
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The reason I abandoned this strategy is because there was no clear advantage to me having 2 hatches in my base, as opposed to 1 hatch in base and 1 at natural. Maybe on maps with large distances between main and natural, like desert oasis or kulas, this would work better. But generally my army is mobile enough to defend my main and natural just as well as I could defend 2 hatches in one base.
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I totally dont like the OP, but i have seen a new way to defend vs reapers in the bubba vs stalife game that was in one of the latest day9 dailies.
Bubba basically goes 14 pool and 16 hatch after he scouts his opponent is not in the close ground position on meta, then he spends his first 100 gas on lair, makes a couple of roaches and 2 queens (which he allows to take some damage until roaches pop, and he lets roaches take turns in taking damage/even lets em die if necessary). He then gets roach speed asap and one well placed spinecrawler and techs back to speedlings after that.
Seems quite micro intensive aswell until roachspeed is done, but i really liked the idea of it 
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Honestly, I have been having much more success with this play style myself as well against terran. Especially on smaller maps. If you watch 2 replays of yourself doing this build vs a fast expo build against a terran, you will quickly notice that the economic advantage you think you lose is minute. As stated by the OP he isn't avoiding his natural, he is just delaying it a little while his main is getting saturated.
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On September 10 2010 11:59 Rumtifoo wrote:
well, I find that the main problem of 1 basing is not having enough larva to both drone and defend. The advantage of a hatch at an expo and not inside your base is increased income, but until you have more than 30 drones, the extra expansion isn't actually giving you more income it's just making it easier for you to be harassed. No.
20 drones mining off of two bases will get more minerals than 30 drones mining off of one. It's something that annoys me to no end about watching Husky's casts. He'll count workers to see who has the stronger economy and never notice the numbers on the left which are sometimes drastically different.
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20 drones mining off two bases is also harder to defend against something as mobile as reapers.
As mentioned previously, Koreans are beginning to catch that 2hatch in main isn't that much of a crutch.
For some reason the community is still stuck in the dogma "1hatch+1queen per base, Never let queen's energy get higher than 30, otherwise you're horrible at macro".
It's the equivalent of saying "4gates per base only, absolutely no reason at all to add a robo if you're on one base since you cannot support 5 buildings constantly producing then".
But guess what... you might need that observer, so why wait for your 2nd nexus just because someone said so?
I'm personally glad to see Zerg style evolving, that Bubba's fast Roach+speed build mentioned above was indeed intriguing.
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I've been experimenting with hatch in main for the last week, and I'm starting to feel that it is much stronger than a FE build with a similar hatch timing. I take my natural when I feel it is safe to do so, so it seems to be between 30-50 food, depending on my opponent.
The economic difference is minimal, absolutely minimal. You dont get to saturate until very late anyhow, and if you FE, chances are you're going to lose some drones. Not only that, FE leaves you so vulnerable that you're forced to build more units to defend than you would if you stayed on one base.
You definitely float larva a bit on 1 base 2 hatch, but I say that's a hell of a lot better than floating minerals, which is what happens if FEs get denied. I'd rather have a stockpile of extra larva than a stockpile of minerals I cant spend because I'm larva blocked.
The beautiful thing about opening 2 hatch is that when you take your natural, you saturate it ridiculously fast, because you have extra larva and 3 hatches. I find that I take my 3rd expo sooner when I open this way.
Also, you can place the hatch at your ramp, which makes it way easier to choke of vs. hellion harass.
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I also think this strategy leaves you 1) really exposed to a contain and 2) more exposed to hellions on maps like lost temple.
There are quite a few reasons why reasonably fast expansions are important
1) To eventually have a base to mine from quickly
2) To have creep at the front of your ramp ASAP
3) for extra larva for production
Now I think 3 is equally (maybe even slightly preferably) satisfied by the hatch in base, but the very important 1 and 2 are completely lacking and the timing getting your expo saturated and defended if you didn't hatch their earlier is a LOT later and you leave yourself extremely exposed to a contain. Now against the pylon contain this might be a good idea as your opponent has invested a decent amount of resources to keep you contained.
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"2) To have creep at the front of your ramp ASAP"
This is my favourite reason for the natural, untill you can throw out the tumors there it can be harder to start your highway, plus it stops wall - ins
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On September 10 2010 13:07 HomicidaL wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 12:34 EnderCN wrote:
most of the korean zerg replays I see include an extra hatch in the main or in the natural. I think this is just one of those things US Zerg players need to do more often. This, I to have notice many koreon zerg having and extra hatch in their main, Zerg minerals stack up very fast once you get saturated. Extra Larva never hurt anyone. The op makes a strong point, you cant really fully saturate both your main and expo until at least mid game. So eco wise your at no real advantage by FE until mid game. You will take your expo around the same time a terran or toss would, your just not FE.
The extra hatch is normally their 3rd or 4th Hatch though after they got 2/3 bases going.
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On September 11 2010 01:52 Emmon wrote:
"2) To have creep at the front of your ramp ASAP"
This is my favourite reason for the natural, untill you can throw out the tumors there it can be harder to start your highway, plus it stops wall - ins
with 14 hatch in base 14 pool, you can get creep there faster depending on hatchery placement.
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If you notice, most Zerg players who FE and have early pressure applied to them, don't actually have enough time to saturate their expo, let alone even produce drones for it. 90 percent of the time, you will see top tier professionals simply utilise the expo primarily for it's additional larvae. Additionally, extra zerglings (and consequently larvae, ultimately drones) are sacrificed just because of the more-difficult-to-defend position of the expansion. As a diamond player, I feel that inbase hatcheries are extremely viable and effective ways of dealing with early pressure, even 2gates for example. Your econ has barely suffered because you have most likely not lost the 300 mins u spent for the extra larvae (which is a risk of u actually expo), and because of the close proximity of the additional larvae, one is able to saturate his main because you have not spread your forces and economy over a larger distance. Effectively, at the point that u have held off early aggression, you are most likely in better shape due to both drone powering ability and the ability to make mass lings at any second, all because of your banked larvae. Putting down an FE is simply too much of an Economic risk because it is much more difficult to defend, and at this crucial time, you will not be able to benefit from the minerals at your FE because all your larvae will be committed to defense.
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I included a second replay that is a bit of a cleaner execution of the build. You notice that he really wants to harass but by the time I'm vulnerable to it I have units that easily repel it. Also, at no point am I in danger of being attacked, my army is always on par with or ahead of his.
I lost a few games using this build to someone doing a 3 rax (one reactor 2 tech lab) timing push with stim. But now if no reapers show up I drop a baneling nest and scout for the marine/marauder comp and tool my zerg/baneling mix accordingly. This operates the same way in repelling his force and setting me up for broodlords.
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http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=147995
Rum, if you want more info on 1 base play read that thread. It's ridiculously long but very informative and the person who wrote it isn't a bad writer so it's possible to get through it all. I read it in between games of the MLG Raleigh tourny lol
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building a hatch early (at least before 25 food) is essential in most z builds, where you want to place it obviously depends on the map. in some cases it might even be prudent to do it in you opponents base , lol (especially if he proxy rax/gates you). cheesy plays aside, if the map allows it, placing your hatch where you can actually use it to mine is generally better. how ever, making another hatchery in your main is very viable, at least on maps where your natural is hard to defend.
it's also worth noting that unless your nat is very far away from your ramp, it is by no means necessary to place your first hatch in your main to defend 3- or 5rax reapers. creep is essential to deal with reapers, so in many cases taking your natural would actually make defending vs reapers easier rather than hiding it in your main. a couple of well placed spine crawlers and some queens to transfuse usually does the trick i dare say. speedlings are just so much faster than reapers with nitropacks anyway...
great suggestion, though, one basing is hardly even viable unless you have a second hatch.
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A lot of people seem to be confusing this with one base play, it totally isn't. Watch the second replay to see why.
WirelessWaffle, thanks for the link it was a really interesting read.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 10 2010 11:27 Rumtifoo wrote:I'm a ~750 diamond zerg player (rum.858) I'm not that good, but I play a lot. I was getting tired of losing to five rax reaper which has become very popular at 800ish diamond so I decided to start getting creative and ran into something that has worked for me. I know that if my micro was better it wouldn't be necessary, but I think a lot of players might benefit from this method. Also, even if you are much better plaer and are able to take your FE against early reaper without many losses, this is a way that can reduce the risk further without much of a downside. The build is 14 hatch 14 pool with my hatch inside my main. I drop one spinecrawler the instant my pool finishes, make two queens and then pump out 10 or so roaches. Since I only have one base the reapers never deal any damage... they might get a queen if they get lucky. I also get to use the extra queen to start spreading creep really fast, because with roaches I don't quite need two spit cycles yet. After I get a good roach count I start pumping lings, I get like 40 or 50 of them. By the time he pushes with his marauders I have enough to destroy his push very economically. By this time the Terran generally goes into turtle mode. I make 6 to 8 mutalisks to harass and pin him in, then I tech up to broodlords and crack him. here is a replay. I wish I had one that makes me look better, I kind of fall apart towards the end. This isn't a 5 rax reaper but a 3 rax reaper. He got starports and went for banshees after his push failed... but if you'll notice my army when he pushes I would have easily defended a five rax too. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/76952-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-templeedit: another replay showing the build on steps of war, a lot cleaner build this time. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/77467-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war
After reading your post and watching your first and second replays I'm quite disappointed although I thought I found a solution to it .. but theres this common thing about your replays .. you do not scout , either early or mid or late game .. so I'd like to know how do you know that your opponent will not do a MMM ball and push through ? No offence but did you happen to do this build to a 3-5rax reaper player ? Not all TERRAN players do it as far as I have encountered . In my opinion , this build will easily lose to any MMM ball ... cause in the early game you only tend to have zerglings and roaches . Please reply with a solution or am I just missing out something ? Point it out to me if I am . Thanks .
P.S I'm a 800points platinum zerg ( not that good but some people might ask for it )
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@Dronelord
yeah my scouting is a pretty weak part of my game, you are right to point that out. I've found that my ladder games 90% of terran do some sort of reaper/helion harass as if they don't zerg can be in really good position mid-game. It's the point I can almost always expect it. The reason I didn't bother scouting is because I saw the reapers and that's all the information I need, not to mention all the information I'm going to get.
On the second replay, btw, I scouted with an ovie and saw the tech lab on his wall off.
Anyways, to answer your question, yes an mmm play would beat the build, but if reapers or helions don't come I know that an mmm is coming and I just drop a baneling nest and sac an ovie to see his composition and adjust accordingly.
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Against reaper, put your ovies for scouting near cliffs. and put scout parties...for lack of a better term, near the cliffs. Then keep your main force to deny the reapers in a central location.
What I do is get 8-12 roaches depending on map. Split them up into 3-4 sized groups and spread those at the cliffs, get 30 or so speedlings and keep those in the center. Use your overlords to scout, and since reapers can't pick them off you'll be fine having them out there a bit more. When you see them come, put your lings at the top of the cliff with a LITTLE bit of room to hop up. That way the reapers when they hop up will lose 2-3 and the rest of their force will be delayed in going up. You'll lose units, but cost for cost theirs will be worse. Then do a quick 1base muta to re-establish map control one you have 4 or so out. Harass like mad and try to get them to force vikings by doing this and if you see some get some corrupters then go muta/ling.
If they go rines or thor then get 12 or so mutas, constantly harass. GO dimaga style ling/ultra with a nydus drop into their main while you are harassing. If you can't get the nydus in, then use it to establish map control and run them dry. My longest match ended up being like 50some minutes vs a top10 diamond terran. He ended up having 3 super turtle bases and I had the rest of the map. I couldn't crack it outright, even with drops. distractions, BLs. But I played game of attrition and I whittled down his forces.
Granted I probably haven't faced a really good 5rax reaper, nd the responses that followed 5rax reaper when I re-establish map control are seemingly textbook and predictable as hell.
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With a 14 in main hatch you are set up nicely to also go for Overlord speed and Overlord dropships very quickly after lair. It is more risky, but you can add that option in if you see the T open themselves to it. (which is good for doom drops and even 1OL fake-scout baneling drops) It transitions well into expanding on islands and defending tank drops and reapers on cliffs like on lost templer (which is impossible to FE on safely imo)
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EPT
