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Hey guys, I'm a silver leaguer (lol noob) who's having a lot of trouble stopping proxy zealot rushes. I just don't know what to do. By the time I scout it it's already too late most of the time.
Here's a replay of my latest game (I'm the blue terran), it's only four minutes or so long:
Linky
First of all, critiques of my play are always welcome. I want to get better so be as harsh as you have to be.
Second, I knew as soon as I saw he had nothing but a nexus in his base he was going proxy gate, but it had to be outside my base because I didn't see a scouting probe. I know I should have left my marine inside but I don't think it would have mattered anyway.
My wall off wasn't good, I screwed up my depot placement in the beginning so I just tried to roll with it. I built my second refinery because I was going to go for a fast Thor but abandoned that once I figured out the proxy. I felt like I did a lot of things wrong. But I have no idea what they are.
Any help would be appreciated.
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Wall in, have marines shoot from behind correct wall off whilst SCVs repair the supply depot(s).
Zealot rushes do not work against Terran if they wall in and are prepared. You just messed up your wall and sacced a marine for no reason.
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T is the only race that isn't susceptible to Zealot rushes... Just wall in like every other Terran ever.
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I don't have enough fingers to count the number of terran i was able to screw during the first minutes because they don't wall in and therefore lose too much against 2-3 zealots.
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On September 06 2010 08:53 rezoacken wrote:
I don't have enough fingers to count the number of terran i was able to screw during the first minutes because they don't wall in and therefore lose too much against 2-3 zealots.
Likewise, I don't have enough fingers to count the number of times I beat a Protoss into the ground because they saw that I had no wall and immediately pumped out way too many zealots and tried to micro them in my base, doing absolutely zero damage and delaying their stalker.
Walls are for newbs.
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On September 06 2010 08:59 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 08:53 rezoacken wrote:
I don't have enough fingers to count the number of terran i was able to screw during the first minutes because they don't wall in and therefore lose too much against 2-3 zealots. Likewise, I don't have enough fingers to count the number of times I beat a Protoss into the ground because they saw that I had no wall and immediately pumped out way too many zealots and tried to micro them in my base, doing absolutely zero damage and delaying their stalker. Walls are for newbs.
If you let a Zealot rush into your base, microing your marines won't save you unless your opponent sucks. Either your workers aren't mining or they are dying. Meanwhile, either your marine is defending your barracks, or the barracks is dying. You can get 4-5 zealots to 2 marines off a proxy 2 gate, more than enough to keep the marines at bay while killing whatever needs to die.
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then how exactly did you stop the zealot rush without a wall Itortoise? If it's a true zealot proxy rush you will have chronoboosted zealots in your base by the time you only have 1 or 2 marines. That's some insane micro if you can beat a constant supply of lots like that.
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Do we even have Brood War style Terran building placements that allow marines to pass but not zealots?
I suppose you can always try an inbase bunker, hope the other guy goes mass zealot, and hope you can outmicro him, but that's a lot of hoping and trying, and not something I'd do every game. Doesn't seem stable at all.
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It's not easy, but Itortoise is right. Wall is too easily abusable with stalker pressure at the diamond level.
At low levels, a wallin is a crutch that most Tosses aren't experienced enough to abuse.
There is no "easy" way to micro marine vs zealots, otherwise everyone would be IdrA.
The best way is to get better at it is to practice it. Start vs ai in Unit tester maps (think MockBattle). Then, when you can consistently kill 3 zealots with 4 marines, ask a friend to 2gate zealot you and you "react" to such a pressure build. Continuing marine production is VERY important, as well as adjusting your rally point depending on which side of the rax his zealot may try to camp/snipe your spawning marines. Just stay focused. 1-2 hellions and he's screwed, behind in tech if he continues the zealot pressure.
@Darthturtle Re: Marine/Zealot walls
No.
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just build next to your command center, then bunker
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On September 06 2010 11:51 Emperor_Earth wrote:
It's not easy, but Itortoise is right. Wall is too easily abusable with stalker pressure at the diamond level.
At low levels, a wallin is a crutch that most Tosses aren't experienced enough to abuse.
There is no "easy" way to micro marine vs zealots, otherwise everyone would be IdrA.
The best way is to get better at it is to practice it. Start vs ai in Unit tester maps (think MockBattle). Then, when you can consistently kill 3 zealots with 4 marines, ask a friend to 2gate zealot you and you "react" to such a pressure build. Continuing marine production is VERY important, as well as adjusting your rally point depending on which side of the rax his zealot may try to camp/snipe your spawning marines. Just stay focused. 1-2 hellions and he's screwed, behind in tech if he continues the zealot pressure.
@Darthturtle Re: Marine/Zealot walls
No.
With the wall you can defend large numbers of zealots, a play which delays his tech, with minimal marines and do any build/tech secretly until obs pop. It prevents you from having to make that critical mass of marines to micro down groups of zealots without risking lost mining time from any scv harras.
You do lose some mining time from the scv move but you punish any zealot strategies and protect yourself from scouting. Why let him see what you're doing?
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On September 06 2010 15:23 Wysp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 11:51 Emperor_Earth wrote:
It's not easy, but Itortoise is right. Wall is too easily abusable with stalker pressure at the diamond level.
At low levels, a wallin is a crutch that most Tosses aren't experienced enough to abuse.
There is no "easy" way to micro marine vs zealots, otherwise everyone would be IdrA.
The best way is to get better at it is to practice it. Start vs ai in Unit tester maps (think MockBattle). Then, when you can consistently kill 3 zealots with 4 marines, ask a friend to 2gate zealot you and you "react" to such a pressure build. Continuing marine production is VERY important, as well as adjusting your rally point depending on which side of the rax his zealot may try to camp/snipe your spawning marines. Just stay focused. 1-2 hellions and he's screwed, behind in tech if he continues the zealot pressure.
@Darthturtle Re: Marine/Zealot walls
No. With the wall you can defend large numbers of zealots, a play which delays his tech, with minimal marines and do any build/tech secretly until obs pop. It prevents you from having to make that critical mass of marines to micro down groups of zealots without risking lost mining time from any scv harras. You do lose some mining time from the scv move but you punish any zealot strategies and protect yourself from scouting. Why let him see what you're doing? It's not the mining time, its the fact that stalkers can snipe your supply depos and void rays can charge on them for free.
@op Whenever I see chrono boosted zealots I ust get wall up asap and make sure you have constant marine production. Building a bunker protecting your mineral line is a good backup plan in case you are caught off guard.
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I walled in as normal and sent a scout at around 13 supply so i saw i was being two gated and then I had already walled in as normal. I put a bunker behind my wall and and spammed marines. Then I spammed barracks and marines and transitioned into MMM and won
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On September 06 2010 09:29 Craven42 wrote:
then how exactly did you stop the zealot rush without a wall Itortoise? If it's a true zealot proxy rush you will have chronoboosted zealots in your base by the time you only have 1 or 2 marines. That's some insane micro if you can beat a constant supply of lots like that.
Scouting, smart building placement, maybe a bunker. On most maps you can easily wall-off your mineral line so that they have to go allllll the way around.
One bunker behind your mineral line, tops. Once that first wave of zealots dies, it's pretty much good game for the toss.
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On September 06 2010 23:12 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 09:29 Craven42 wrote:
then how exactly did you stop the zealot rush without a wall Itortoise? If it's a true zealot proxy rush you will have chronoboosted zealots in your base by the time you only have 1 or 2 marines. That's some insane micro if you can beat a constant supply of lots like that. One bunker behind your mineral line, tops. Once that first wave of zealots dies, it's pretty much good game for the toss.
Uh, no.
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On September 06 2010 23:15 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 23:12 ltortoise wrote:On September 06 2010 09:29 Craven42 wrote:
then how exactly did you stop the zealot rush without a wall Itortoise? If it's a true zealot proxy rush you will have chronoboosted zealots in your base by the time you only have 1 or 2 marines. That's some insane micro if you can beat a constant supply of lots like that. One bunker behind your mineral line, tops. Once that first wave of zealots dies, it's pretty much good game for the toss. Uh, no.
Uh, yes.
This is what I do every single game I play against Protoss, and I simply cannot remember the last time I died to a zealot rush.
Walls are bad against protoss. I deny scouting by using my army, not making a crappy harassable wall that ends up being a liability by the time the mid game hits.
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my advice:
you can wall but it doesn't help much if the gateways are inside your base. your first scout (whenever it does go out) should probably check around your base for that.
for in-base proxy, you need a bunker. set its rally point toward the zeals before you unload, the select and attack, and run back to the bunker before your marines get hit. build nothing but marines, barracks, depots, scvs until you can kill the proxy gates. if you didn't take too many scv losses youll likely be ahead.
+5sec build time on zealots should help you out as well when the patch comes
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Build rax&depots at your CC; you want to Sim City (the buildings are obstacles for his melee units)
If you scout sees no pylon/gateways/etc in his base, you know something is amiss; scout your base for his proxy and put down one bunker in your mineral line.
Get a 2nd rax
Micro
There's a million tiny things that makes the whole; you just need to game more and watch day9 or something.
(btw dont get 2 refineries that early, saturate your first one first)
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Those who say your wall will be a liability is right, as only one of them point out though, that usualy happens in diamond. If you want to get some peace of mind (not being afraid of a 2-gate rush) to get your skill up to gold/plat level the feel free to do the ramp wall. Its easy to do and takes some burden of your apm, just remember that you will have to adjust in time.
What I did up to plat was to always scout with the SCV that build the first suply depo at 10 and always wall off with suplly, barraks, suply. The second suply need to come a bit early if you see a rush coming but its defenitely worth it. Constant marine production and keep an SCV with auto repair close to the wall and you can focus on your macro and the broad strokes.
Again, this is NOT optimal but then again, silver isnt about optimal play, its about geting things right and adapting to an early rush is right.How you do it is rifinement. Learn how to place the SD, Rax, SD so that its a tight wall, make a habit of scouting at 11.
Last, when you get supriced by an rush, think back to what you saw and thought when your SCV scouted the enemy base. For the longest time I was "Hmm, no gateway, that suspicious." And then just went about as if nothing had happened and died. Nothing realy comes for free, you have to make a habit of reacting the right way to sertain situations!
Good luck!
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Here's the response.
http://blip.tv/file/3912630
Stay active with your marines and get a bunker asap so they have a bunker to retreat to => invincible marines until stalkers come out.
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I've been trying this out in TheUnitTester, and I am having difficulties even 4 marine vs 2 zealots (fair army mineral-wise), how to do 4v3?!
On September 06 2010 11:51 Emperor_Earth wrote:
It's not easy, but Itortoise is right. Wall is too easily abusable with stalker pressure at the diamond level.
At low levels, a wallin is a crutch that most Tosses aren't experienced enough to abuse.
There is no "easy" way to micro marine vs zealots, otherwise everyone would be IdrA.
The best way is to get better at it is to practice it. Start vs ai in Unit tester maps (think MockBattle). Then, when you can consistently kill 3 zealots with 4 marines, ask a friend to 2gate zealot you and you "react" to such a pressure build. Continuing marine production is VERY important, as well as adjusting your rally point depending on which side of the rax his zealot may try to camp/snipe your spawning marines. Just stay focused. 1-2 hellions and he's screwed, behind in tech if he continues the zealot pressure.
@Darthturtle Re: Marine/Zealot walls
No.
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On September 07 2010 12:11 Janhaus wrote:I've been trying this out in TheUnitTester, and I am having difficulties even 4 marine vs 2 zealots (fair army mineral-wise), how to do 4v3?! Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 11:51 Emperor_Earth wrote:
It's not easy, but Itortoise is right. Wall is too easily abusable with stalker pressure at the diamond level.
At low levels, a wallin is a crutch that most Tosses aren't experienced enough to abuse.
There is no "easy" way to micro marine vs zealots, otherwise everyone would be IdrA.
The best way is to get better at it is to practice it. Start vs ai in Unit tester maps (think MockBattle). Then, when you can consistently kill 3 zealots with 4 marines, ask a friend to 2gate zealot you and you "react" to such a pressure build. Continuing marine production is VERY important, as well as adjusting your rally point depending on which side of the rax his zealot may try to camp/snipe your spawning marines. Just stay focused. 1-2 hellions and he's screwed, behind in tech if he continues the zealot pressure.
@Darthturtle Re: Marine/Zealot walls
No.
Spread em out. Figure out which ones are being chased, stutter step micro them (named by qxc). If you're not confident in your stutter step micro yet or there are too many being chased, just run em away. Let the ones not being chased to dps. Keep adjusting based on who the target(s) are.
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On September 06 2010 11:51 Emperor_Earth wrote:
It's not easy, but Itortoise is right. Wall is too easily abusable with stalker pressure at the diamond level. As a protoss player how can I abuse a T wall with stalkers without getting my stalkers picked off by marauders? Also don't I have to be in marine range to see the wall in the first place without an observer?
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To remedy all these proxies and such (especially in lower leagues), I usually take a scv off mining about 1 second before my depot finishes, so that I'm in time to scout for proxies. Then, if I see that they are proxying, just add a supply depot to block off while producing marines. Also, if you see the pylon early, you can always pull 2-3 scvs off mining to kill the pylon. I think the tip is ALWAYS pull scvs to repair. (if needed)
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EPT
