EPTI'm actually intersting in reading the rules, I remember that post vaguly from beta
[D] Safe Drone Pumping - Page 4
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Galleon.frigate
Canada721 Posts
I'm actually intersting in reading the rules, I remember that post vaguly from beta | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
On September 08 2010 01:28 Ciddass wrote: for the guys that say "you don`t have to power drones" ima copy paste some data from the mule economics thread. this is a summary of my last ZvT games on ~900 diamond lvl. - resources - workers created [lots of useless numbers here im editing out for the sake of the legh of this quote] 1 hatchery making only drones and overlords produces the same amount of workers as a terran command center. A mule costs 2 workers to make (cant make workers while upgrading to an orbital), and mines like 3. The great benefit from a mule though, is to still be able to mine on fully saturated minerals, thus a mule is roughly equal to 3 workers, and 2 more mineral patches. As long as you use all of your base larva from the hatch to make workers, and are ahead on bases, and dont lose your workers, then you will have the same economy as a terran. You then still have the second hatchery, and the extra larva from 2 queens to make buildings, army, overlords for the army, and a couple of extra drones, and you will still be ahead or even. You dont need to pump all workers all the time to stay even. Its worth noting that for zerg, due to increased movement speed on creep of workers, 16 workers on minerals per base is closer to full saturation than for SCVs, and that mules dont saturate. Thus, if you already have 16 workers mining on minerals, making more wont help your economy much, expanding and making 16 workers there is a better choice. In short, instead of having 70 workers on 2 bases, having 60 on 3 bases actually gives you way more money. You dont need to devote an incredible number of larva, or all your larve on drones to stay even or ahead, you just need to be 1 base and 2-3 workers ahead. By that I mean actual workers though. as in, drones that are mining. If you are makinbg spawning pools, extractors, hatcheries, baneling nests, spires, evolution chambers, spine crawlers ..... any zerg building really, the of course, your number of worker produced needs to be higher than the terran, since each of your buildings as zerg requires you to build a worker first. But just keep in mind that if you have 2 hatcheries and 2 queens, your hatcheries are making only drones, for mining and buildings, and a few overlords, and then you use the extra larva from queens to make overlords and combat units (And the drones for spinecrawlers), then you are still ahead on economy. Go try it out if you dont believe me. Make 2 hatcheries, making only drones and overlords, and have your opponent be terran, and make only SCVs, supply depots, and mule as much as he can. You will be ahead on economy. That extra larva from the queens, CAN be used to get even further ahead on economy. But it doesnt mean that its a good idea to always use it on drones, and pray that your opponent doesnt push, because you are betting the whole game on the timing of his push. | ||
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Exquisito
United States55 Posts
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sooch
Canada299 Posts
On September 08 2010 02:27 morimacil wrote: 1 hatchery making only drones and overlords produces the same amount of workers as a terran command center. A mule costs 2 workers to make (cant make workers while upgrading to an orbital), and mines like 3. The great benefit from a mule though, is to still be able to mine on fully saturated minerals, thus a mule is roughly equal to 3 workers, and 2 more mineral patches. As long as you use all of your base larva from the hatch to make workers, and are ahead on bases, and dont lose your workers, then you will have the same economy as a terran. You then still have the second hatchery, and the extra larva from 2 queens to make buildings, army, overlords for the army, and a couple of extra drones, and you will still be ahead or even. You dont need to pump all workers all the time to stay even. Its worth noting that for zerg, due to increased movement speed on creep of workers, 16 workers on minerals per base is closer to full saturation than for SCVs, and that mules dont saturate. Thus, if you already have 16 workers mining on minerals, making more wont help your economy much, expanding and making 16 workers there is a better choice. In short, instead of having 70 workers on 2 bases, having 60 on 3 bases actually gives you way more money. You dont need to devote an incredible number of larva, or all your larve on drones to stay even or ahead, you just need to be 1 base and 2-3 workers ahead. By that I mean actual workers though. as in, drones that are mining. If you are makinbg spawning pools, extractors, hatcheries, baneling nests, spires, evolution chambers, spine crawlers ..... any zerg building really, the of course, your number of worker produced needs to be higher than the terran, since each of your buildings as zerg requires you to build a worker first. But just keep in mind that if you have 2 hatcheries and 2 queens, your hatcheries are making only drones, for mining and buildings, and a few overlords, and then you use the extra larva from queens to make overlords and combat units (And the drones for spinecrawlers), then you are still ahead on economy. Go try it out if you dont believe me. Make 2 hatcheries, making only drones and overlords, and have your opponent be terran, and make only SCVs, supply depots, and mule as much as he can. You will be ahead on economy. That extra larva from the queens, CAN be used to get even further ahead on economy. But it doesnt mean that its a good idea to always use it on drones, and pray that your opponent doesnt push, because you are betting the whole game on the timing of his push. Bolded text is not true. Drones are the only zerg unit that does not get a speed boost on creep. | ||
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Dice.
United States78 Posts
If you're afraid of early air, get some extra queens. For sure. If they're cloaked banshees, get an early overseer and your queens will make quick work of those banshees. Pump those drones FTW! | ||
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RScott
United States15 Posts
The actual army composition and size should be pretty flexible to suit the situation. If you find you can get away with more or less that should be fine -- after using the concept a while, it should be fairly clear what works and doesn't. But the huge mistake I see is newer Zergs trying to copy pro zergs who have perfect game sense, scout all of the possibilities their opponent could be doing and prepares for them. Newer Zergs don't have a clear idea of what they could possibly deal with at a given push-out and usually don't have their bases and army prepared when it happens. Consider where and how you want the battle to take place as Zerg. You don't want it happening at your front door or in a narrow choke path. You want viable ways to get your reinforcements into position at the flank of your enemy. The more the enemy closes into your location, on most maps, the narrower the path closes in and you have far fewer ways to get a surround. It's really a timing thing. If you see your opponent moving out and it takes you more than 1 round of units to be ready to fight, then the battle is most likely going to take place at or near your front door. If it will take you two full rounds of units or more, then it's even worse, as almost all of your units are sure to be on only one side of the enemy army. Most Zergs at the early game who have to fight head-on without a flank or good surround will lose by a large margin. IMO this plan is a good way for Zergs who do not have superior map control or game sense to account for the fact that a battle can happen at any point and they are likely to be unprepared and therefore are likely to fight in a location that is not of their choosing. How many times have we all heard Zergs make statements like the race is 100% reactionary or that Zerg armies are fundamentally weak? Some of this may be true, but I'm sure that a lot of this comes from following a style that starts off reactionary and ends with a poor battle location. I feel like the idea of keeping a moderate army early on is the best way to keep the early game more even. Sure there is less chance of a HUGE mid-game economy, but there is also less chance of an early steamroll. So I think the middle path is the best one for newer players to start from, not one of the extremes. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
Just wanna point out that where he says "newer players", I would be a bit broader. I see tons mid/high diamond level players, some of which have been playing SC for years, making the mistake of too many drones, and not enough units for them to be safe, opting instead to make the same amount of units idra or some other player needs to be safe. And losing countless games because of that. | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
On September 08 2010 02:18 Galleon.frigate wrote: oddly I don't see the thread come up from that search, or google.. but then I didn't sleep to watch gom last night so that might explain it... I'm actually intersting in reading the rules, I remember that post vaguly from beta You probably can't find them because "Artosis' rules of droning" doesn't exist. | ||
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Malabyte
Norway75 Posts
On September 05 2010 06:45 Barrin wrote: This is the general assumption of zerg players right now. My point is that they CAN matter, and often do if done properly. Dude, that can be said about anything in the game lol. Your argument is void, because you assume that your opponent can be so easily controlled. What if he's scouted you out? He'll counter your build with his own. You're using a hypothetical situation and saying that it is especially useful just because it CAN work in some cases against some players... | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On September 08 2010 01:28 Ciddass wrote:+ Show Spoiler + for the guys that say "you don`t have to power drones" ima copy paste some data from the mule economics thread. this is a summary of my last ZvT games on ~900 diamond lvl. - resources - workers created Z ----- 7,1k ----- 42 T ----- 7,7k ----- 29 game 2 --- 20 minutes played Z ----- 18,8k ----- 64 T ----- 16,5k ----- 33 game 3 --- 14 minutes played Z ----- 9,3k ----- 53 T ----- 10,1k ----- 31 game 4 --- 9 minutes played Z ----- 4,7k ----- 29 T ----- 6,5k ----- 26 game 5 --- 31 minutes played Z ----- 28,4k ----- 63 T ----- 34,0k ----- 55 game 6 --- 11 minutes played Z ----- 8,1k ----- 36 T ----- 8,6k ----- 29 game 7 ---- 11 minutes played Z ----- 7,1k ----- 33 T ----- 7,3k ----- 22 game 8 --- 23 minutes played Z ----- 27,0k ----- 84 T ----- 15,7k ----- 27 game 9 --- 13 minutes played Z ----- 8,2k ----- 46 T ----- 9,1k ----- 27 game 10 --- 21 minutes played Z ----- 21,0k ----- 60 T ----- 21,5k ----- 40 now imagine this without powering drones. These numbers are a bit misleading without knowing: Did either loose workers to harassment, how many bases were both on, how many gas geysers. Vs terran, you need to be ~5 drones ahead(and not oversaturated) vs mule per base(the terran has) to have equal econ, then some more depending on unit efficiency(t is generally more efficient, but the diff between the races also depends on the players). The biggest disadvantage I see from this is mostly that you are using your larvae for lower tier units than if you'd hold out on units as long as possible. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
If you check out this day 9 daily, I think whats important to note and is relevant to this thread, is the part about making more early drones there. He managed to squeeze in more early drones. Thats nice. But he managed to do it while still being safe, because he saw that early marine, and knew exactly what his opponent's timings were. He wasnt just randomly making more drones, hoping his opponent would wait, he was making more drones while still being safe. Thats good. After that, he did make a bunch of preemptive roaches, and crushed the little marauder push. The preemptive roaches allowed him to keep on pumping out even more drones, while still being safe. He got away with as many drones as he could while still being safe, he didnt make all drones until the last possible second hoping no push would come. I disagree with the answer to the post game question, where day9 explains his theory of the best way to lose. Or well, I dont actually disagree with it that much, I just think it isnt very relevant if instead you are looking for the best way to win. And to me, the best way to win, isnt to hope that your opponent doesnt notice the weakness in your play while you pump drones, because people will push out at seemingly random times, people will scout your weakness, study your build, or just get lucky, and attack when you are weak, and you will lose those games. To me, its a much better idea to be safe. Then, once you are safe, cut down on the stuff you can cut out. To me, its just so much more satisfying to see a player for example an overseer, just to be safe, because he knows that DTs can come at that point in the game, and that he will need it to be safe, and never never actually need or use that overseer for the whole game, instead of someone not making it, instead for example opting to get an extra mutalisk, and just hoping his opponent isnt going for DTs. Sometimes its going to be little things. Sometimes really hard to notice things. A terran could be saving up enough for a scan at a particular moment, opting to mule a little later, just because he knows DTs could be coming at that particular point in time. Or instead, he could be throwing down a turret, or have a ghost, or a raven, all perfectly fine. Using the mule, using the money on an expo, and going "ooooh, hope he doesnt have DTs or else im fucked!" is a really terrible way to play though imo. At least if you intend to win  | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On September 08 2010 01:28 Ciddass wrote: for the guys that say "you don`t have to power drones" ima copy paste some data from the mule economics thread. this is a summary of my last ZvT games on ~900 diamond lvl. - resources - workers created Z ----- 7,1k ----- 42 T ----- 7,7k ----- 29 game 2 --- 20 minutes played Z ----- 18,8k ----- 64 T ----- 16,5k ----- 33 game 3 --- 14 minutes played Z ----- 9,3k ----- 53 T ----- 10,1k ----- 31 game 4 --- 9 minutes played Z ----- 4,7k ----- 29 T ----- 6,5k ----- 26 game 5 --- 31 minutes played Z ----- 28,4k ----- 63 T ----- 34,0k ----- 55 game 6 --- 11 minutes played Z ----- 8,1k ----- 36 T ----- 8,6k ----- 29 game 7 ---- 11 minutes played Z ----- 7,1k ----- 33 T ----- 7,3k ----- 22 game 8 --- 23 minutes played Z ----- 27,0k ----- 84 T ----- 15,7k ----- 27 game 9 --- 13 minutes played Z ----- 8,2k ----- 46 T ----- 9,1k ----- 27 game 10 --- 21 minutes played Z ----- 21,0k ----- 60 T ----- 21,5k ----- 40 now imagine this without powering drones. Shouldn't you be subtracting the drones you created simply to make buildings? Let's say you build roughly 15 buildings per game, then every single one is comparable. Terran will be slightly ahead because of mules, so you should expect a 5 worker or so advantage in their favor. | ||
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idakeh
Canada8 Posts
Protoss and Terran on low econ are just so much more potent and powerful then a zerg. If you want to win you got to exploit advantages, as difficult as the timing is. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
Great idea, plan, strategy, whatever. 2 parts to it. "getting to the lategame" and "lots of drones" There has to be some kind of balance between the 2. Too many people focus on the lots of drones part, and ignore anything else. What, a zerg saying I should build units to be safe?! Insane! Let me give a couple of examples. make mutas, contain and harrass, and pump drones with the time you gained - safe and sound strategy. Making no units, because you know you can build a couple of lings, and delay with your queen -safe and sound strategy. Making a spine crawler for the 2 gate zealots you know will be arriving, so that you can build a couple more drones - safe and sound strategy. Starting to make units and spinecrawlers in time to not die to a 4 gate push - again, safe and sound strategy. Using 100% of your larva on drones because in that one replay you saw a pro make a lot of early drones, knowing that if your opponent does push, you are dead, and hoping that he doesnt push - not really a strategy at all. not safe. not sound. If you are going to be doing something like that, you might as well fast expand to the gold, and hope your opponent doesnt notice. Same risk, bigger benefit. Yes, by making any units, or buildings instead of drones, you have less economy. But there is a reason for making a spwning pool before you have 3 fully saturated bases, and no, that reason isnt just the queens for more drones. You need to make drones, yes. But making drones shouldnt be a gamble. Making as many drones as you can get away with safely is awesome. Making as many drones as you possibly can when its not safe, is dumb. + Show Spoiler + Unless of course, you are somehow way behind, then it might be worth it to risk the game on a gamble, like a hidden gold expo or multiple rounds of only drones using up all your larva and supply. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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